aj1908 Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 1 minute ago, Dave T said: I've been very clear on my views. But the comp has started so the relegation point is too late. 13 or 14 teams next year could solve that problem. Potentially current 12 plus championship winners plus Toulose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Stottle Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 15 hours ago, Dave T said: Decent discussion on Sky in the match buildup, the three pundits speaking in favour of TWP but there were two interesting points that merited further debate. Firstly, Clarke asked the question a couple of times about do we want a N.A team in SL, would it ever pay for SL, and this was skirted over. The answer isn't just necessarily yes. Secondly, Carney aggressively made the point that Argyl is funding this and we have nowt to lose - but there has been a lot of anger that the RFL/SL are insisting this is self-funded. So even a reasonable point from Carney has a lot of anger from some sections of supporters. I think Clarke's point about protection from relegation like Catalans had was the most sensible that had little argument against. Tbh if you give them 3 years protection, it gives time to iron out the salary cap detail as you progress. What you missed out Dave was the poll/question that Sky put out on Twitter requesting a simple yes/no answer to "Should Toronto be allowed a SC dispensation" Mr Carney reported that 2000 people responded and I think it was stated that 74% of them said No. Is that a good gauge of the feeling of the RL public in this country? I should imagine non-RL people would not be bothered with the question. If anyone got all their RL information from this site, they would believe that the North American excersise should be given the Green Light on all and every aspect such is the overwhelming support it receives, but that poll shows it not to be the popular consensus, it reminds me a lot of the 3 year long Brexit debate on this forum for anyone who ventured into those pages would have believed that we would have remained in the EU for eternity! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aj1908 Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 5 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said: What you missed out Dave was the poll/question that Sky put out on Twitter requesting a simple yes/no answer to "Should Toronto be allowed a SC dispensation" Mr Carney reported that 2000 people responded and I think it was stated that 74% of them said No. Is that a good gauge of the feeling of the RL public in this country? I should imagine non-RL people would be bothered with the question. If anyone got all their RL information from this site, they would believe that the North American excersise should be given the Green Light on all and every aspect such is the overwhelming support it receives, but that poll shows it not to be the popular consensus, it reminds me a lot of the 3 year long Brexit debate on this forum for anyone who ventured into those pages would have believed that we would have remained in the EU for eternity! Maybe the poll was sampled solely from residents of Leigh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 7 minutes ago, aj1908 said: 13 or 14 teams next year could solve that problem. Potentially current 12 plus championship winners plus Toulose yes, that fudge could work, but can only really be done if a new tv deal is sorted in advance. As weve seen with TWP, major decisions within a tv deal cycle can be problematic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aj1908 Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 1 minute ago, Dave T said: yes, that fudge could work, but can only really be done if a new tv deal is sorted in advance. As weve seen with TWP, major decisions within a tv deal cycle can be problematic. Toronto could go another year without tv money if it meant staying in sl if they just went to 13. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LR23 Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 1 minute ago, aj1908 said: Toronto could go another year without tv money if it meant staying in sl if they just went to 13. Chuck in New York as well on no TV money (just to get people really riled up!) and you are onto a winner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Stottle Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 27 minutes ago, Dave T said: Thanks for backing my point up 100% Harry! Saints will have maybe 15 to 20k fans through their turnstiles each year. Maybe 3 to 5k of them will be interested in going away. Hence, the majority will not go to away games. Yep, good to compare a negative with a negative! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lowdesert Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 8 minutes ago, Dave T said: McDermott and Noble are cut from the same cloth. They tell a good story and are loose with the facts. I think the points that were made regarding the depth of the squad are without question. Even Wilkins support for it has proved to be wrong in a very short space of time. Let’s look at the possibility that TWP go down and TO get promotion. Their squad depth ain’t much different just that they have a few more bodies that could come in but a lesser quality. National league standard. They could quite easily go down and they don’t have a rich backer for a drag out. As much as TWPs effort has had its detractors, they have created more interest for the game than many SL clubs put together. Not sure how to quantify that or measure otherwise but it seems that way. It seems we care more about TWP going down than a Wakey, Wigan or Huddersfield. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 8 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said: What you missed out Dave was the poll/question that Sky put out on Twitter requesting a simple yes/no answer to "Should Toronto be allowed a SC dispensation" Mr Carney reported that 2000 people responded and I think it was stated that 74% of them said No. Is that a good gauge of the feeling of the RL public in this country? I should imagine non-RL people would be bothered with the question. If anyone got all their RL information from this site, they would believe that the North American excersise should be given the Green Light on all and every aspect such is the overwhelming support it receives, but that poll shows it not to be the popular consensus, it reminds me a lot of the 3 year long Brexit debate on this forum for anyone who ventured into those pages would have believed that we would have remained in the EU for eternity! I agree with some of the point on the echo chamber, as a supporter of the TWP project I get frustrated with the aggressive views that can be portrayed that this is a no-brainer that should not be questioned. It simply suppresses debate and discussion. But I also wouldn't use a small twitter poll as reflective of the RL population either. I also think there is only so much you should listen to fans. You will have extremes, I think here you would get probably the opposite result, SS Twitter got that result, but in reality, and I have made this point a few times, I think we have a centre ground where the vast majority just don't massively care. They have no interest in discussing the business side of the sport. They may grumble about favouritism, but they will just crack on and attend the games - so whilst their views may be interesting, if they don't affect the behaviours, that is all it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sentoffagain2 Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 Can't see Toronto avoiding relegation due to the size of their squad.It will be interesting how the other Super League teams respond if that happens.I have said before the only way to stop the Yo Yo effect of Championship Clubs when promoted is to do it every two years which gives the promoted club time to develop their squad.I applaud Toronto for getting into S.L. but feel the better idea would have been developing Rugby League in Canada and the U.S.A.over a 15year period with Coaches in the schools and Colleges for future player's.Our problem is not enough players being developed and not enough funding for Championship Clubs to help players to make the transition to S.L. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aj1908 Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 5 minutes ago, sentoffagain2 said: Can't see Toronto avoiding relegation due to the size of their squad.It will be interesting how the other Super League teams respond if that happens.I have said before the only way to stop the Yo Yo effect of Championship Clubs when promoted is to do it every two years which gives the promoted club time to develop their squad.I applaud Toronto for getting into S.L. but feel the better idea would have been developing Rugby League in Canada and the U.S.A.over a 15year period with Coaches in the schools and Colleges for future player's.Our problem is not enough players being developed and not enough funding for Championship Clubs to help players to make the transition to S.L. And who was going to pay for development in Canada? Santa claus ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sentoffagain2 Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 20 minutes ago, aj1908 said: And who was going to pay for development in Canada? Santa claus ? Not us we can't afford to fund S.L. and The Championship to the right level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lowdesert Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 31 minutes ago, Johnoco said: If RL fans want things to remain the same as it’s always been, that’s entirely up to them and I wouldn’t dream of forcing them to do anything different. It’s just that if that’s the case, I won’t be one of them. Jon, you’ve been promising the jack the game for the last 4 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 33 minutes ago, Johnoco said: If RL fans want things to remain the same as it’s always been, that’s entirely up to them and I wouldn’t dream of forcing them to do anything different. It’s just that if that’s the case, I won’t be one of them. We also shouldn't just see a vote like this as indicative of how you have presented it above. It is possible to be a fan of expansion, without feeling that three weeks in we should be adjusting the cap because a club has made stupid choices. The question was quite specific about cap dispensations IIRC, I can understand why a large number of people would be against that once the comp has started. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 1 minute ago, scotchy1 said: It's also the case that Toronto brought this up prior to the end of last season. And let's not pretend many fans havent always taken the same tack when it comes to expansion. A threat rather than an opportunity. Frankly I'm surprised 25% wanted dispensation. That's quite a hefty percentage of the fan base that were prepared to put the development of the game ahead of their own clubs short term interests. Do you have further details of when and how they raised the cap issue? What was it they asked for during the season last year? One of SLE's grumbles appears to be how late this was raised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Stottle Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 25 minutes ago, aj1908 said: 13 or 14 teams next year could solve that problem. Potentially current 12 plus championship winners plus Toulose Now I know that you have no expierence of the Joy's of promotion or the jeapordy of relegation, but supporting my club for over half a century I am used to that more than most, the question is would Leigh given grace from relegation go onto better things? In the league rankings we sit somewhere between 10 and 15th, every year is a challenge, can we get promoted and if we do can we escape relegation, given that there are other clubs in the same predicament as ours who would not survive in SL but for the year on year funding they recieve, it is very hard for me to say go ahead have a closed shop and let Johnny Newcomer in to the party after all they will only be offered a place speculated on by potential, nothin more nothing less. I spend my money watching this great game to watch my team, that is what gives me pleasure, I watch all the games that are on TV, but very very rarely do I get the same emotion as watching "my team" I don't ride the tackles, feel the hits, rejoice at a try, moan at dropped ball or curse at a mistake that is what being involved and being a fan means to me. I relish the challenge of being in the top division and the fairest way for me is to decide who plays there on merit, through performance and results. Given a level playing field all the teams have the same opportunity, sheilding anyone from jeorpardy does not sit true with me, competition is the essence of British sport, Football, Union, Cricket the high profile team games all employ this, Rugby League should be no different, and I hope it never is again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Stottle Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 1 hour ago, LR23 said: I think it is more like they live out of their own home for three months a year. They asked for 5% dispensation when London get 10% (I think) but it was refused on the grounds that they asked so late from what I can gather. You do struggle with Leigh facts don't you LR, I know many lads from my town who have been employed by Toronto, I used to see them quite regularly and joke are you at 'home' this week in Canada or 'away' and sleeping at home. They are based in Manchester, train at Rochdale now, they have 15 regular games in this country plus those they will have to play over here because of the weather conditions in Canada so they will have 11 is it league games in Canada? why would they have to be in Canada for 9 months of the year, it costs the club nothing when they are at home in their own beds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 3 minutes ago, scotchy1 said: It was said last night on sky and I'm sure some of the journos on twitter were saying pre GF they asked for it to be considered. I also dont think that's quite what elstone said on behalf of SL, which was that the game should have addressed the issue sooner, not that Toronto should have brought it up sooner. https://www.totalrl.com/elstone-admits-toronto-dispensation-issue-should-have-been-sorted-sooner/ Where was it mentioned last night on Sky? I've just re-watched the segment on TWP and the cap and there was no mention at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
To Be Confirmed Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said: McDermott did not give that impression in his interview did he? If so, then it should be done on an equating basis, as has been suggested above the Toronto player's live out of their own home for 9 months of the year do the lads at London? As far as im aware the London lads live in London for the whole season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DemonUK Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 So all those in favour of giving them dispensation AND protection from relegation AND a bye to the GF say aye. They are spending up to the cap without the TV money so there is no need for that to be brought up in any argument. They don't live in Toronto so a dispensation ala the London weighting does not apply. Even if Canadian players were not classed as overseas players, there aren't any of SL quality at the moment. So now a question for the RFL ........ how the f*** did you ever think this would work. Catalans have been in the league for how long? Is French RL any better off ..... nope its still ######. Here we go again ..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bramstein Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 1 minute ago, DemonUK said: So all those in favour of giving them dispensation AND protection from relegation AND a bye to the GF say aye. They are spending up to the cap without the TV money so there is no need for that to be brought up in any argument. They don't live in Toronto so a dispensation ala the London weighting does not apply. Even if Canadian players were not classed as overseas players, there aren't any of SL quality at the moment. So now a question for the RFL ........ how the f*** did you ever think this would work. Catalans have been in the league for how long? Is French RL any better off ..... nope its still ######. Maybe they didn't think it would work. But as someone was offering to bankroll the entire thing for them they probably said, "OK then, what have we got to lose". I'd have done the same. 12 minutes ago, scotchy1 said: Youre like the guy with only a GCSE D in woodwork complaining that Ahmed the Neurosurgeon is coming over here and stealing your job. I can't believe Ahmed the Neurosurgeon didn't realise a 23 man squad would be a touch on the light side! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Stottle Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 1 hour ago, aj1908 said: Toronto could go another year without tv money if it meant staying in sl if they just went to 13. 1 hour ago, LR23 said: Chuck in New York as well on no TV money (just to get people really riled up!) and you are onto a winner. FFS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Stottle Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 36 minutes ago, scotchy1 said: It's also the case that Toronto brought this up prior to the end of last season. And let's not pretend many fans havent always taken the same tack when it comes to expansion. A threat rather than an opportunity. Frankly I'm surprised 25% wanted dispensation. That's quite a hefty percentage of the fan base that were prepared to put the development of the game ahead of their own clubs short term interests. The 25% most probably came from the top 6, you know those classesd as the "safe ones". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Picture Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 4 hours ago, Man of Kent said: Runs multiple sides, ie reserves, Academy So I guess the Kansas City Chiefs, Toronto Raptors, etc. aren't "proper clubs" in your book then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Stottle Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 27 minutes ago, scotchy1 said: Leigh have been in the championship for 23 of 25 SL seasons, I'm pretty sure they havent spent two consecutive seasons in the top division in my lifetime. Youre like the guy with only a GCSE D in woodwork complaining that Ahmed the Neurosurgeon is coming over here and stealing your job. So how old are you Scotchy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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