The General 'Toronto Wolfpack' Discussion Thread

[Kayakman]

1 hour ago, GUBRATS said:

Much the same as Leigh in 2017

Ya...and I bet that wasn't a fluke either.

[Man of Kent]

Brad Singleton out until June. Ouch.

[GUBRATS]

2 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

Just as highlight of the impossible nature of what Toronto are being asked to do

Last year Leeds broke the SC. In the explanation for it GH explained that part of it was down to not lodging the contracts at the right time( if you want to say it's a strict liability offence fine  but when clubs keep tripping over the rules maybe it says something about their complexity) 

The more interesting part was that it was down to two players, Jack Walker and luke Briscoe moving from part-time to full time terms.

Think about that. Jack walker has 60+ games under his belt, has won a GF, is the first choice fullback for one of the premier clubs in the country, an england knights player and a top young prospect. Up until last year he wasnt earning a full time wage. 

There is no reason to assume that walkers situation is replicated throughout the league with the best young players, established young players not even being low paid full time pros but part time players. 

How can toronto compete with that?

Even if they had the best youth system in the world, a transatlantic club cant operate with part time players. 

Which is why they should be allowed dispensation for the home produced and long service allowances other clubs have , which they obviously cannot have 

[Harry Stottle]

41 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

Think about that. Jack walker has 60+ games under his belt, has won a GF, is the first choice fullback for one of the premier clubs in the country, an england knights player and a top young prospect. Up until last year he wasnt earning a full time wage. 

And you want players of his age irrespective of appearances and accolades removing from the cap, or was it just to suit your argument at the time? 

[Harry Stottle]

40 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Which is why they should be allowed dispensation for the home produced and long service allowances other clubs have , which they obviously cannot have 

No, no, no, nothing less than unlimited spending power and transferring the Roosters squad over in its entirety, including Trent Robinson.

Why has no one thought of this before, it should appease all those who believe they should have different rules to the rest of the clubs.

[Dave T]

46 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

Just as highlight of the impossible nature of what Toronto are being asked to do

Last year Leeds broke the SC. In the explanation for it GH explained that part of it was down to not lodging the contracts at the right time( if you want to say it's a strict liability offence fine  but when clubs keep tripping over the rules maybe it says something about their complexity) 

The more interesting part was that it was down to two players, Jack Walker and luke Briscoe moving from part-time to full time terms.

Think about that. Jack walker has 60+ games under his belt, has won a GF, is the first choice fullback for one of the premier clubs in the country, an england knights player and a top young prospect. Up until last year he wasnt earning a full time wage. 

There is no reason to assume that walkers situation is replicated throughout the league with the best young players, established young players not even being low paid full time pros but part time players. 

How can toronto compete with that?

Even if they had the best youth system in the world, a transatlantic club cant operate with part time players. 

Leeds' breach was in 2018. 

In 2017 Walker wasn't named in the squad of 30 players at the start of the season, but came through and played 14 first team games that year. 

In 2018 he was given number 24 and promoted to a full time contract that year. 

That seems a relatively straight forward journey from the Academy, albeit he leapfrogged a few lads because of his talent. 

So the question them becomes how do TWP access young lads to fill places 24 to 30? There seems to be a few options, none of which have been progressed by TWP. 

[Dave T]

4 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

Walker was leeds first choice in 2018 with a grand final win behind him. 

It isnt out of the ordinary, that is my point. It's almost certainly the case for players like A Sutcliffe, Walters, Mustapha, Johnson, Holroyd et al. 

Most sides are operating at about 24 full time players. I would be astounded if any are running at 30 full time pros. 

Can we really pretend that all the 17 HKR named last night are full time pros? 

It is an issue that will constantly effect Toronto disproportionately. The SC as it is set up doesnt work when it is required that all players in a squad are full time pros on wages that would fund time away from home. 

 

I agree on the disadvantage around lower squad players, hence being supportive of allowances. I do get frustrated that TWP haven't helped themselves too much. Make-up of SL squads isn't a hidden secret that they have just found out about. 

One thing I did find interesting was a reference that an SL club cannot play a player on less than £15k per annum. Is this a new requirement? 

[Harry Stottle]

18 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

I dont want a cap at all Harry. I think a points system, if anything, would work much better

But having youngsters not count is better than what we have now

It would most definatley help at Leeds, I agree with you Scotchy but I am still of tge opinion I was before, if a youngster is good enough to play 10 first team games that allowance should be withdrawn.

And as for no cap what do you really want to happen as far as the league is concerned, it is still not really competitive at the moment, for all the years since '98 that the salary cap has been in existance we have had only 4 clubs win the big gong, and surprise surprise they would be amongst the few clubs who could out buy most others, do you recall when Wigan could outspend everyone, we could sitback and admire the Wigan team but it didn't do the game much good did it?

[Dave T]

8 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

Its minimum wage isnt it

Suppose that depends on your age and hours. 

[Marty Funkhouser]

4 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

Can we really pretend that all the 17 HKR named last night are full time pros? 

 

 

Every single one of them is a full time professional with a full time contract.

Who on earth do you think isn't? Do you reckon Shaun Kenny-Dowall does a bit of window cleaning through the week?

[TIWIT]

12 minutes ago, SL17 said:

Do they have a minimum wage in Toronto?

$14/HR. No one can survive in Toronto on that.

[Michael1812]

53 minutes ago, SL17 said:

We manage in the UK on that..

That is £8.14. The London living wage is £10.55. I am sure you can do the math. 

[Marty Funkhouser]

11 minutes ago, Michael1812 said:

That is £8.14. The London living wage is £10.55. I am sure you can do the math. 

Toronto is reckoned to be 20% cheaper than London  (https://www.expatistan.com/cost-of-living/comparison/london/toronto,https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+Kingdom&city1=London&country2=Canada&city2=Toronto ) so it is very, very similar.

[TIWIT]

Just for reference purposes, a General Admission to a Wolfpack game at Lamport costs $35 - taxes etc push it close to $40 ie, 2 1/2 times minimum wage. How does that compare to a UK game?

[Tex Evans Thigh]

Its only relevant if they live in Toronto, which most of them don't.

How much damage might Noble have done to the sport if Toronto get relegated due to him spunking wages on championship players. This could be a massive tragedy.

This is Rugby League so I imagine it'll end badly. What a shame.

[Dave T]

2 hours ago, TIWIT said:

Just for reference purposes, a General Admission to a Wolfpack game at Lamport costs $35 - taxes etc push it close to $40 ie, 2 1/2 times minimum wage. How does that compare to a UK game?

Similar ratio. Expect around £23 for cheap tickets, new minimum wage of £8.72 coming soon. 

[nadera78]

I see Neil Hudgell had a little pop at the Wolfpack during a twitter Q&A last night. Good to see people in senior positions within the sport able to keep things professional.

[Dave T]

15 minutes ago, nadera78 said:

I see Neil Hudgell had a little pop at the Wolfpack during a twitter Q&A last night. Good to see people in senior positions within the sport able to keep things professional.

Has Hudgell ever been professional? The whole q and a was terrible, but they at least edited out the TWP comments when they put it on their site! 

[nadera78]

16 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Has Hudgell ever been professional? The whole q and a was terrible, but they at least edited out the TWP comments when they put it on their site! 

You'd hope they'd occasionally be able to restrain themselves, but it seems not. Hudgell is one of the worst for it.

[Dave T]

2 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

No, but I would be surprised if all of Dan Murray, Matt Storton, Matty Gee, Joe Keyes, Kyle Trout and the other players who have been bouncing around the championship/SL fringe were full-time pro's with no other jobs. 

We keep hearing this, what other jobs are these players doing? 

Let's say, Josh Thewlis at Wire for example, what is his other job? 

What was Jack Walker's other job back in 2017 when he didn't have a first team squad number? 

It's a genuine question BTW, genuinely interested in the lower ends of the squads 

[bobbruce]

On 27/02/2020 at 12:55, Harry Stottle said:

But is Stanley being payed? Player's are not on appearence money these day,  they are on contract they get paid when the don't play.

The cap doesn’t work like that though a players actual salary doesn’t count on the cap. Each player is given a nominal value and the number of games played by that player will affect his cap value. 

[Dave T]

22 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

Well they can do any job really, 

I would hope players like Thewlis and Walker are either in education or learning some sort of trade

But some specifics, we keep hearing these young lads playing in SL have other jobs. Why is that never mentioned on interviews with them? Where are they actually working? 

[Dave T]

9 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

Why would it?

Is anyone really interested in how Jodie Broughtons quantity surveyor career is going? Is there a lot of call out there for an update on how some 19 year old fringe SL players plumbing course is going?

When a young 18 year old makes his debut, the fact he has been doing shifts in Asda is likely to be mentioned. 

It is very odd it hasn't been. 

In fact we often hear about players' qualifications and studies. 

[Harry Stottle]

18 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

A salary cap doesnt work for a multi national league and it doesnt work with P+R

In the context of having clubs of different wealth in a 12 team division or those trying to acheive that status, a ceiling on how much ALL clubs are allowed to spend enables it to become more of a contest, albeit as we have already eluded to it still suits some clubs better which results, league tables trophies over the years have prooved.

Please give me an honest answer, if the cap was abolished today prior to and in time to prepare for next season, all contracts void (they would expire pretty soon anyway) and it was a free market spend do you consider that all the clubs that are presently in SL could still compete in it? Also if it was a free market spend and money dictates as it surely would, as in football we may as well bring back inter club player transfers with fees attached.

Realistically, it would be an exclusive club/division in which it is no point becoming a member unless you can afford to spend X amount, for arguments sake lets say £4M few would be able to that, but maybe one or two could afford £6M, so logic says what is the point of any club who can just about spend or get close to today's cap level in trying to compete, they financially couldn't do it. 

So who would constitute a SL if it was a free spend no cap division, west of the Pennines we would have Wigan, Saints & Wire 3 clubs in such proximity that you can throw a large table cloth over them, in the poorer east only Leeds and maybe Hull FC, Obviously Toronto as long as it is still Mr Argyle's hobby, not really to sure if Catalan would fit.

Maybe that would be good let them go their own way, which TV company would want to pay for a six/seven team division, that being the case with no TV deal, sponsership would most probably dip and I don't consider the clubs would attract anymore spectators either.

It is OK sitting back and being idealistic and saying a No cap Free market for all, but it simply wouldn't work, we don't have enough wealth in the game either collectively or individually as clubs to make it work.

 

[Harry Stottle]

2 hours ago, nadera78 said:

I see Neil Hudgell had a little pop at the Wolfpack during a twitter Q&A last night. Good to see people in senior positions within the sport able to keep things professional.

 

2 hours ago, Dave T said:

Has Hudgell ever been professional? The whole q and a was terrible, but they at least edited out the TWP comments when they put it on their site! 

Hudgell is a fan of the game as we all are, he pays more for his enjoyment than most others do and most probably 100% of those who contrbute on this site, is he not allowed an opinion?

I have not seen the Q&A (I don't do Twitter) but I gather that he must not be in favour of the NA excersize or specifically TWP.

If that is the case and one of the "Big Six" are coming out publicly Toronto are on very stoney ground.