The General 'Toronto Wolfpack' Discussion Thread

[Cameron Highlander]

On 02/07/2020 at 09:56, TheReaper said:

Why, is there a plethora of other RL news that this is getting in the way of?

Hello.  I was not ignoring your post here.  Just giving the natural evolution of events some time to evolve.  The recent few postings are exactly why I wanted this thread turfed into the by now ginormous Toronto Wolfpack one I spoke of.  EVERY SINGLE TWP thread eventually spirals downwards into.....why don't TWP start an academy and develop from the ground up?...and/or....the TWP business model is not the way we do things in RL don't you know....and/or....all TWP do is sign-up ageing SL/NRL players looking for a final pay packet.....and/or...TWP and their principle backer (there are more than David Argyle BTW), have soooooo much money they are able to out-bid other teams for players - not fair....etc...etc....etc.  I just get sooooooo tired of reading the same old stuff time after time from the same posters.   

[TheReaper]

Fair enough,  you are absolutely spot on!

 

I've typed out responses to all of those things enough times, I really should organize them into a library for easy reference...

[Kayakman]

30 minutes ago, TheReaper said:

Fair enough,  you are absolutely spot on!

 

I've typed out responses to all of those things enough times, I really should organize them into a library for easy reference...

Organize them under the following heading...each letter stands for something.  As per the Wolfpack I think the word you should be using is 'WINNER".

[Harry Stottle]

15 hours ago, TheReaper said:

Insular? By welcoming players from all over the world to our cities and teams? Good one.

Look, every player for Leigh or Wigan or anywhere else, isn't from that town either. So what's the difference? 

 

Insular as in narrow minded and only caring about one's self.

No but hell of a lot of lads have played and presently play the game in those towns, some have and some will go on to play for professional and semi-professional clubs, others will enjoy many years playing at tge community level.

The pool of player's in the professional ranks is shallow enough to begin with and it is drying up year on year, if expansion really means expansion then it would include taking the game to the people in those territories that are new to the sport or at least show some willing attitude to expand the game. 

You are not the first Canadian to inform us that your sporting culture is akin to a cuckoo's who is quite happy for others to do all the spade work for you and build whatever the game maybe whilst you smuggly sit back and say "we don't care we will take anybody from anywhere" just so long as we don't have to get involved ourselves, great attitude.

[Harry Stottle]

15 hours ago, Cameron Highlander said:

I just get sooooooo tired of reading the same old stuff time after time from the same posters.

I see, I suppose from your diatribe that is directed at those who dare to have a different opinion of the North American Venture other than the drum banging, flag waving everything will be fine attitude of those sitting firmly in North American corner.

We have different opinions Cameron, you are most welcome to yours I will not be dissuaded from mine until I see something other than just "Taking the circus to town" into Canada, and you know what,  those circuses who don't put down roots just travel on through, just saying.

[Cardypaul]

I think there are a couple of ways to look at this yes he’s clearly a very rich guy and may be able to throw enough money at the Wolfpack to win it and let’s be honest that’s what most chairman in SL do to win it. But what happens then does he get board and walk away and if so what happens to the Wolfpack will they have gained enough of a foothold on people’s imagination to keep going or will it all fall like a house of cards? Guess only time will tell.

[Damien]

Anyway back to the thread after the usual diversion and derailment attempts. This is a great initiative and again is something very innovative which will hopefully generate a lot of benefits. If clubs can learn anything from Toronto it is how to think outside the box and pursue alternative commercial opportunities and partners.

[The Rocket]

On 05/07/2020 at 18:13, Harry Stottle said:

The pool of player's in the professional ranks is shallow enough to begin with and it is drying up year on year, if expansion really means expansion then it would include taking the game to the people in those territories that are new to the sport or at least show some willing attitude to expand the game. 

 

Look there are some very interesting comparisons with Melbourne here . Melbourne have been very successful on the field and off with regards to finances and fan participation , however having spent $20miilion  have made very slow progress with developing the game locally , this may happen if they persist, it may one of those things  where they turn a corner. However it has been very slow progress. Given that they are one of the highest rating teams in the NRL does that mean that they have been a drag on the the rest of the game.

[Harry Stottle]

47 minutes ago, The Rocket said:

Look there are some very interesting comparisons with Melbourne here . Melbourne have been very successful on the field and off with regards to finances and fan participation , however having spent $20miilion  have made very slow progress with developing the game locally , this may happen if they persist, it may one of those things  where they turn a corner. However it has been very slow progress. Given that they are one of the highest rating teams in the NRL does that mean that they have been a drag on the the rest of the game.

Would you regard Canberra as a Rugby League centre?

A long way from Melbourne yes being some 400 miles away but it is accessible by road or rail, and a little googling of the Local Canberra Leagues tells me there are 9 clubs in the Canberra Raiders Cup comp,10 clubs in the George Tooke Shield comp, and 15 clubs in the Canberra Junior Rugby League, and I should think but although I am guessing it is played in the schools.

Conversely Toronto from the nearest Rugby League centre (UK) is only really accessible by air and is approx 3,500 miles away, it has no infrastructure or grass roots rugby league, it is not played in the schools and whats more to the point, the area/district is not doing anything whatsoever to sow those seeds which will lead to a mere germination not even contemplating a harvest to crop, unlike Melbourne which has 17 junior clubs and has already produced through their ranks NRL player's.

Rod you have joined the many ranks of those on these pages who makes those very interesting comparisons with Melbourne and Toronto, but the truth is they are a million miles apart in development and 'expanding' the sport, and moreso the natives of Toronto shout loud and clear "In our sports we don't care where players come from, we simply apart from Hockey don't produce any" and are proud of it.

I have said all along, The British RL can sustain one club, but when we are talking about multiple clubs originating we cannot digest that, something will have to give. 

We already employ 90ish overseas's player's in the British Leagues, the equation with more areas who will not produce players does not add up.

[RP London]

14 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Would you regard Canberra as a Rugby League centre?

A long way from Melbourne yes being some 400 miles away but it is accessible by road or rail, and a little googling of the Local Canberra Leagues tells me there are 9 clubs in the Canberra Raiders Cup comp,10 clubs in the George Tooke Shield comp, and 15 clubs in the Canberra Junior Rugby League, and I should think but although I am guessing it is played in the schools.

Conversely Toronto from the nearest Rugby League centre (UK) is only really accessible by air and is approx 3,500 miles away, it has no infrastructure or grass roots rugby league, it is not played in the schools and whats more to the point, the area/district is not doing anything whatsoever to sow those seeds which will lead to a mere germination not even contemplating a harvest to crop, unlike Melbourne which has 17 junior clubs and has already produced through their ranks NRL player's.

Rod you have joined the many ranks of those on these pages who makes those very interesting comparisons with Melbourne and Toronto, but the truth is they are a million miles apart in development and 'expanding' the sport, and moreso the natives of Toronto shout loud and clear "In our sports we don't care where players come from, we simply apart from Hockey don't produce any" and are proud of it.

I have said all along, The British RL can sustain one club, but when we are talking about multiple clubs originating we cannot digest that, something will have to give. 

We already employ 90ish overseas's player's in the British Leagues, the equation with more areas who will not produce players does not add up.

Harry, I respect your position on Toronto i really do (i dont necessarily agree with it etc but i respect it). However, any chance we can knock it on the head and discuss the original post as otherwise this will just become another thread, just like all the others, which will have no end because both parties are entrenched in "what ifs" and the actually proof is coming many years down the track. But still the thread will make 40 pages of backwards and forwards bickering. 

There was no need for this to descend to that again, i dont know, or care, who the first person to post the "they dont produce any youngsters" etc was but it really is dull when the thread topic is about something different but positive about Toronto. 

Its a great initiative and hopefully something will come of it and it can develop. Lets worry about the rest of the Toronto bits when they are the main reason for the thread. I think we all know everyone's position by now to be honest (on both sides). 

Equally if people are finding threads boring, stop reading them. You dont need to comment either. i read plenty of threads that i think "oh thats interesting but i have nothing to add" so dont... or "god not this again" and i just come away. 

Its a positive news story, there is plenty to be negative about lets not just turn a positive into yet another tedious slanging match bases purely on personal opinion of what might or might not happen or what may or may not be planned (pre or post a world pandemic)

[The Rocket]

49 minutes ago, RP London said:

Harry, I respect your position on Toronto i really do (i dont necessarily agree with it etc but i respect it). However, any chance we can knock it on the head and discuss the original post as otherwise this will just become another thread, just like all the others, which will have no end because both parties are entrenched in "what ifs" and the actually proof is coming many years down the track. But still the thread will make 40 pages of backwards and forwards bickering. 

There was no need for this to descend to that again, i dont know, or care, who the first person to post the "they dont produce any youngsters" etc was but it really is dull when the thread topic is about something different but positive about Toronto. 

Its a great initiative and hopefully something will come of it and it can develop. Lets worry about the rest of the Toronto bits when they are the main reason for the thread. I think we all know everyone's position by now to be honest (on both sides). 

Equally if people are finding threads boring, stop reading them. You dont need to comment either. i read plenty of threads that i think "oh thats interesting but i have nothing to add" so dont... or "god not this again" and i just come away. 

Its a positive news story, there is plenty to be negative about lets not just turn a positive into yet another tedious slanging match bases purely on personal opinion of what might or might not happen or what may or may not be planned (pre or post a world pandemic)

As David Byrne from that great band Talking Heads once said :  "Stop making sense"

[The Rocket]

2 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

I have said all along, The British RL can sustain one club, but when we are talking about multiple clubs originating we cannot digest that, something will have to give. 

 

Good Harry,  got R.P. out of the way, now where were we ?  Ah that`s right....... not quite sure about the meaning of your reference to Canberra , if you were referring to the relatively small size of Canberra`s junior base , they do kind of draw from the whole of southern N.S.W.  As regards to the excerpt from your previous answer that I have quoted above ,  I am a great believer of that scientific maxim that " nature abhors a vacuum "  If there becomes a widespread demand for Rugby League players of various quality and the money is good and the opportunity to play in exotic and not so exotic locations arises and clubs do innovative things like encourage these kids to study and take care of their future after League I believe they will come out of the woodwork ,so to speak. This demand is not going to happen over night. I am trying to positive be R.P.

[TIWIT]

4 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

 

Rod you have joined the many ranks of those on these pages who makes those very interesting comparisons with Melbourne and Toronto, but the truth is they are a million miles apart in development and 'expanding' the sport, and moreso the natives of Toronto shout loud and clear "In our sports we don't care where players come from, we simply apart from Hockey don't produce any" and are proud of it.

 

So all the NBA players and MLS players and MLB players, not to mention the lacrosse and even RU players who come from in and around Toronto don't really exist? Be a heck of a shock to their families.

[RobertAM]

Toronto 2017 Ottawa 2021 NY 2022 Montreal 2023 Philadelphia 2024..the genie is out of the bottle now...I am old enough to remember when the UK used to be focused on exporting its success to the world..now the UK is out of the clutches of the EU it's time to start doing it again...seems like RL might be the first iteration...let's help it along...

[TheReaper]

1 hour ago, TIWIT said:

So all the NBA players and MLS players and MLB players, not to mention the lacrosse and even RU players who come from in and around Toronto don't really exist? Be a heck of a shock to their families.

Right 

Due to population and geography it is incredibly hard to have a national Canadian league in anything. The one we have has tons of highly skilled and talented Canadians that were developed here (CFL). The other one had that has become the defacto American national league (NHL) is also half full of extremely skilled Canadians that were developed here.

No other sport* has a national professional league, and instead exist within the American sports ecosystem, so there is no particular focus of specifically developing Canadian players. There are no quotas, they take the best players they can fit under their salary caps, fans love to watch competitive teams, and therefore Canadian content has no effect on either their competitiveness or commercial attractiveness. That's not to say they don't develop players - The Jays Leafs and Raptors all do develop players, but they best youngsters they can get their hands on from all over, not with a national focus.

Professional sports are not the same this as representative sports.

Sports development at the grassroots is the prerogative on national governing bodies, not professional sports entertainment businesses. They are not the same thing and have different objectives, responsibilities, and stakeholders. 

Every sport governing body in Canada is doing their absolute best that they can with the resources they have to develop their athletes. As does any governing body around the world. 

So this:

6 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

 and moreso the natives of Toronto shout loud and clear "In our sports we don't care where players come from, we simply apart from Hockey don't produce any" and are proud of it.

 

Is just Harry being an ignorant #####**. We produce NHL, NBA, NFL, MLB, CFL, AFL, Super Rugby , Premiership, Top 14, Pro 14, Bundesliga, PGA, ATP, and Olympic level players/athletes and are extremely proud of them.

The economics simply to not allow us to sustain many national leagues that can have that as their focus.

*I'm not forgetting CPL, CEBL and NBLC, but they are all young and still trying to achieve sustainability.

**Mods, I feel Harry's comment deserves my insult since he is displaying literal ignorance in a rude fashion. Remove the insult if you must but please leave the rest of the content of my post intact.

[TheReaper]

I get the feeling most people in England have no clue what it means to exist in Canada within the context of the North American continent. it is 5000km from St. John's to Victoria. Those aren't nothing towns at the extremes of the map for illustration, those are provincial capital cities.

By contrast, something like 85% of Canadians live within 100km of the US border.

Our nation runs east to west, but in practical, day to day life, far more interaction happen north-south. Work, travel, family, TV, shipping, and supply chains, hydroelectric power, and sports.

Especially since most popular team sports have roots in the 1800's, when travel was much tougher than it is today, it made way more sense to have a league of say, Toronto, Montreal, Detroit, Boston and New York is far more attractive and sustainable than Toronto, Montreal, Winnipeg, Edmonton, Calgary, and Vancouver, just because "they're all in Canada". It's my opinion that sports, more than any other facet of life, demonstrate that we have a shared North American culture. They have functioned like that from the very beginning. 

I've spent 99% of my entire life in this circle. It would be rounder but there's a bigass lake in the way.

 

Growing up I had TV channels from Erie, Buffalo, London, Kitchener and Toronto. My favourite radio station was in Erie Pennsylvania. I can drive to 6 US states faster than I can drive to the next nearest province. On that map you can see the locations of 2 CFL teams, but also 3 NFL teams. 1 Canadian NHL team, but also 2 American NHL teams. Same counts for NBA teams and MLB teams.

So yes, we have our Canadian culture and identity, but we also live in regions of this content where the side of the border you are on matters less than a lot of other things. Vancouverites are part of a PNW/Cascadia identity. New England and the Maritimes have a ton of common history and modern ties and similarities. Same with the Great Plains and Prairies.

Why, in a sporting context, would a  player from Montreal, Vancouver or Calgary, have any more meaning to me than one from Buffalo or Detroit? If I care about "local players on local teams" why does that mean a prairie boy from out west is supposed to have more connection to me than a Great Lakes kid? It might to some people, in face a national identity is still most peoples strongest, but it's not the only thing that matters. Certainly a lot less than "will this kid help us win games?" or "will this kid help us sell tickets?".

 

[Man of Kent]

4 minutes ago, SL17 said:

Times will tell with the aces, but if they start to develop your post is worthless.

Aye. So much effort, so missed the point. 

[DoubleD]

7 hours ago, RP London said:

Harry, I respect your position on Toronto i really do (i dont necessarily agree with it etc but i respect it). However, any chance we can knock it on the head and discuss the original post as otherwise this will just become another thread, just like all the others, which will have no end because both parties are entrenched in "what ifs" and the actually proof is coming many years down the track. But still the thread will make 40 pages of backwards and forwards bickering. 

There was no need for this to descend to that again, i dont know, or care, who the first person to post the "they dont produce any youngsters" etc was but it really is dull when the thread topic is about something different but positive about Toronto. 

Its a great initiative and hopefully something will come of it and it can develop. Lets worry about the rest of the Toronto bits when they are the main reason for the thread. I think we all know everyone's position by now to be honest (on both sides). 

Equally if people are finding threads boring, stop reading them. You dont need to comment either. i read plenty of threads that i think "oh thats interesting but i have nothing to add" so dont... or "god not this again" and i just come away. 

Its a positive news story, there is plenty to be negative about lets not just turn a positive into yet another tedious slanging match bases purely on personal opinion of what might or might not happen or what may or may not be planned (pre or post a world pandemic)

That lasted long

[TheReaper]

24 minutes ago, SL17 said:

Personally I believe Argyle’s ideas on Toronto never included development of the game and still don’t.  The proof in the pudding being Perez leaving because they didn’t want what he wanted. 
 

See above - development of the game is the job of the governing body. Winning trophies and selling tickets is the job of a professional sports team.

IF a team sees advantages in developing their own talent - whether it be lower player costs, greater team cohesion, or better connections with fans - it is up to them to recognize that an implement it if they so choose.

Quote

Times will tell with the aces, but if they start to develop your post is worthless.

Is it?  Could have sworn this was a discussion forum.

So you're saying if a particular professional sports team sees value in signing local players, that negates the attitudes, experiences and perspectives of millions of existing sports fans? Do go on...

Edit: I realize there were efforts made to keep this thread on topic. But given the lack of commentary on the new partnership, I decided screw it, I'll argue back on the usual points again. Sorry to those who didn't want this be another "bUT wILl tHeY deVeLOp PLaYeRs" thread.

[Oldbear]

On 05/07/2020 at 01:47, Cardypaul said:

I think there are a couple of ways to look at this yes he’s clearly a very rich guy and may be able to throw enough money at the Wolfpack to win it and let’s be honest that’s what most chairman in SL do to win it. But what happens then does he get board and walk away and if so what happens to the Wolfpack will they have gained enough of a foothold on people’s imagination to keep going or will it all fall like a house of cards? Guess only time will tell.

Running this team takes a hell of a lot of $. If Argyle loses patience, or gets sick (believe me, I know what it’s like to deal with an unexpected diagnosis of a life threatening illness), then it really won’t matter if there are thousands of passionate fans, unless the Wolfpack can find other rich guys willing to do what he has, then the future would be bleak. Although having a very rich owner can be a major asset, it can also be a potential threat, both for the reasons mentioned above and because the very rich owner will always get his way. Who knows what private discussions have taken place about development, but unless the owner is committed to it (it’s his $ they are spending after all), then nothing, or at best very little, gets done. Now that may be the real reason Perez departed at the end of season 1, it may not be, as has been said, we will watch Ottawa’s approach with interest.

[Man of Kent]

The criticism about Toronto’s lack of (other than tokenistic) effort to begin to develop Canadian talent is perfectly valid. 

I’d have more respect for Wolfpack fans if they simply took that on the chin instead of pretending they’re somehow above and beyond reproach.

In truth Wolfpack fans would be doing themselves a favour if they took the development criticism on board because until they have a juniors pipeline they’ll more or less just be making up the numbers in Super League, cf. Wigan, Leeds, Saints. 

[Harry Stottle]

1 hour ago, TheReaper said:

Right 

Due to population and geography it is incredibly hard to have a national Canadian league in anything. The one we have has tons of highly skilled and talented Canadians that were developed here (CFL). The other one had that has become the defacto American national league (NHL) is also half full of extremely skilled Canadians that were developed here.

No other sport* has a national professional league, and instead exist within the American sports ecosystem, so there is no particular focus of specifically developing Canadian players. There are no quotas, they take the best players they can fit under their salary caps, fans love to watch competitive teams, and therefore Canadian content has no effect on either their competitiveness or commercial attractiveness. That's not to say they don't develop players - The Jays Leafs and Raptors all do develop players, but they best youngsters they can get their hands on from all over, not with a national focus.

Professional sports are not the same this as representative sports.

Sports development at the grassroots is the prerogative on national governing bodies, not professional sports entertainment businesses. They are not the same thing and have different objectives, responsibilities, and stakeholders. 

Every sport governing body in Canada is doing their absolute best that they can with the resources they have to develop their athletes. As does any governing body around the world. 

So this:

 

Is just Harry being an ignorant #####**. We produce NHL, NBA, NFL, MLB, CFL, AFL, Super Rugby , Premiership, Top 14, Pro 14, Bundesliga, PGA, ATP, and Olympic level players/athletes and are extremely proud of them.

The economics simply to not allow us to sustain many national leagues that can have that as their focus.

*I'm not forgetting CPL, CEBL and NBLC, but they are all young and still trying to achieve sustainability.

**Mods, I feel Harry's comment deserves my insult since he is displaying literal ignorance in a rude fashion. Remove the insult if you must but please leave the rest of the content of my post intact.

Hey Mr Reaper, the only connection I have ever had with any Canadians discussing any topic is on these pages, I have not made up what I am saying simply reiterating the information I have been fed, more than one of your countrymen has stated that "in Canada we don't care where pro player's of any sport come from,  we will employ them", and that is in reaction to my concern that those prominent in RL in your country - which if you want is the heirarchy of TWP - are not interested in "EXPANDING" the sport they are simply happy to lean on others.

I simply don't care one fig what that other plethora of sports you mention do or even the last 3 CPL, CEBL and NBLC (whatever they are involved in) who you state are young and still trying to acheive sustainability, if Toronto and its area's, zones, districts also did something positive I would be high in the queue to applaud it, but the silence is deafening in it's abundance.

I make no apology for capitalising "expanding" to acheive that an influx of more participants is required, not just a paying audience.

No insult attached!

[TheReaper]

42 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

Aye. So much effort, so missed the point. 

My post was in objection to Harry's ridiculous statement that "we don't produce players and are proud of it", when we do and there are strong cultural reasons why they are not the focus of most sports leagues.

20 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

The criticism about Toronto’s lack of (other than tokenistic) effort to begin to develop Canadian talent is perfectly valid. 

I’d have more respect for Wolfpack fans if they simply took that on the chin instead of pretending they’re somehow above and beyond reproach.

In truth Wolfpack fans would be doing themselves a favour if they took the development criticism on board because until they have a juniors pipeline they’ll more or less just be making up the numbers in Super League, cf. Wigan, Leeds, Saints. 

It's nobody's business to tell another business how to find their employees. 

[Harry Stottle]

7 hours ago, RP London said:

Harry, I respect your position on Toronto i really do (i dont necessarily agree with it etc but i respect it). However, any chance we can knock it on the head...................

Sorry RP I was determined to take on board what you said, but when I take a slap in the face it is not in my nature to turn the other cheek, I have to respond.

[Harry Stottle]

13 minutes ago, TheReaper said:

It's nobody's business to tell another business how to find their employees.

No it isn't I agree with that, but there is an old saying "When in Rome, do as the Romans do" Toronto (area) may be seperated by a few thousand mile's from the RL organisation they have joined, but they should still be trying to provide other than just leeching.