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The General 'Toronto Wolfpack' Discussion Thread


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2 hours ago, The Hallucinating Goose said:

You mention Perez here and this could be a big factor as to why some people are so critical. I'd never really thought before but it was Perez who said about developing Canadian talent and he who set out the 5 year plan and so forth. I remember that first year Toronto did that TV show where they ran trials for Canadians and Perez was saying about going to China and Brazil and running trials. I don't know what Perez's level of involvement these days, I don't think much. It is reasonable to say the people that have taken over the running of the organisation from him have no obligation carry on in the same direction he set out. 

Yeah, I sort of stumbled into that after you mentioned Perez. I think this is the reason why people are so critical of local and youth development, because so much was made of it at the start but as I say, different people are involved now. Has much been said about local development since Perez left? 

I went for a post lockdown pint this afternoon and was in the company of the father of one of the TWP player's who was directly involved with the Perez trials to evaluate those who Perez stated were superb athletes ready made for Rugby League, because of how this thread had evolved I asked him how is son evaluated the auditions he said it was nothing more than a PR exercise but also stated the suitabillity to play RL was not very evident from those who came for the trials, hence the numbers taken forward.

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6 hours ago, Tre Cool said:

If it's just negativity about them from the same people over and over its pathetic. If there's some reasonable criticism now and again then nobody minds.

So Toronto are perfect ?

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1 hour ago, GUBRATS said:

So Toronto are perfect ?

Now where in the heel did you see that in his post? 

I think he had a valid point. When it's the same people with the same points over and over again, it does get boring, annoying, and pathetic. And at the same time there other posters with good points and good discussion.

He, nor anybody else, said anything about them being perfect. Except you, just now, building your scarecrow.

Edit to add: To be very clear, Toronto is very imperfect. So is their rugby league team.

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7 minutes ago, TheReaper said:

Now where in the heel did you see that in his post? 

I think he had a valid point. When it's the same people with the same points over and over again, it does get boring, annoying, and pathetic. And at the same time there other posters with good points and good discussion.

He, nor anybody else, said anything about them being perfect. Except you, just now, building your scarecrow.

Edit to add: To be very clear, Toronto is very imperfect. So is their rugby league team.

So like anything else , and any other RL club , expect criticism 

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3 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

I went for a post lockdown pint this afternoon and was in the company of the father of one of the TWP player's who was directly involved with the Perez trials to evaluate those who Perez stated were superb athletes ready made for Rugby League, because of how this thread had evolved I asked him how is son evaluated the auditions he said it was nothing more than a PR exercise but also stated the suitabillity to play RL was not very evident from those who came for the trials, hence the numbers taken forward.

And yet those same trialists won a match against a team of players who'd grown up with RL so (especially considering that they'd never played together before) they obviously had at least some ability to play this game even if that particular group weren't the sort of players which Eric Pérez had in mind when he made that statement.

We need to put things in perspective, the effort of transitioning to a similar-but-different sport is going to have limited appeal as long as the pay is only slightly more than in the minor league CFL (the SL cap divided by 25 is ~113,200 US$ and the CFL cap divided by 56 is ~71,560 US$) even if it didn't involve starting two tiers below the top and playing before crowds of just a few hundred whenever they play away from home.  Attracting major league calibre athletes (such as those who played in one of the annual year-end NCAA all-star bowl games like the Senior Bowl, Shrine Bowl and NFLPA Collegiate Bowl but were overlooked in the NFL draft) would require a major league pay scale.

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On 16/07/2020 at 00:07, RobertAM said:

Nah don't ban these types..gonna be as entertaining as hell reading their drivel when there are 2 and 3 and 4 North American teams in the competition drawing darn near SL size crowds when they can only attract a few hundred to a game.."fans"  LOL!

If entertainment is what you're looking for, you should check out the other site, full of negative types but turn the dial up by a 1000.  

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17 hours ago, Dave T said:

I think it is a complicated one. I think there are many reasons why TWP are unpopular with a population of people, I'll name some, all IMHO. 

1. The Leigh rivalry. A natural rivalry was created initially with the signing of coach and some players. That wouldn't necessarily happen with a Glasgow team. 

2. The logistics issue. There is a reasonable point that having a team from the other side of the world in your comp is odd. And it is, by virtue of the fact it is really unusual. That wouldn't be the case for another UK team, but even then we have seen question marks over the likes of Crusaders and even London, who often appear to be weak clubs propped up. 

3. Expansion strategy. A lot would depend on how a team comes about. The likes of London, Wales, France, even Gateshead all had some form of clumsy expansion development aims - TWP literally came from nowhere because a rich bloke wanted to set a team up. I'm cool with that approach (never look a gift horse in the mouth). 

4. The approach of the club. There have been instances where TWP have rubbed people up the wrong way and played the victim card. My personal view is that you need to be bold and disrupt the market to use business speak, but that won't always be popular. The player development issue is an issue for many. 

5. The approach of some fans. I know it is always put down as self-defense, or a reaction to goading, but that is a cop-out. Some of it may be a culture thing, but the constant griping about things not being how they do it in Canada or playing the victim card has certainly worn me down and lost a lof of my goodwill (I should add this is a very small minority). 

6. Over sensitivity. We have quite a noisy hard-core expansionist lot in RL who are pretty aggressive against anyone who disagrees. Therefore any mild hint of criticism against TWP is met with a lot of vitriol. I've been on the end of it, and the likes of Harry, GUBRATS and MoK who can handle themselves, but IMHO articulate themselves well are lambasted here. Other than repetitiveness and thread drift, they don't deserve the stick they get. People will then side with them. But plenty of clubs are disliked. 

7. P&R and structure. Probably the biggest hot topic in the sport. Having new teams like this in brings this to the forefront of debate again. We have seen how toxic this debate is over the last 25 years and bringing overseas teams and talk of franchises automatically instigates a P&R or structure debate. 

I could go on, some people will get hung up on one of the above, or some people are bothered by none. Apologies this is all a negative list, but that is the point, IMHO there are more positives than any of the above, hence why I support expansion, but if we are looking at why TWP are unpopular to some, we maybe do need to deep-dive and not just dismiss it as backward traditional luddites having a moan. 

So whether another club would be hated depends on plenty of variables is the short answer to the long above post :kolobok_biggrin:

Whilst I agree with most of your post, I believe it's history repeating itself.

  The same people who criticise Toronto also lambasted Toulouse when they entered. The negative types just moved their attention to the new kids on the block.

Imo, no matter the issues, Toronto would have always been criticised, rightly or wrongly.     

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7 hours ago, Man of Kent said:

“Where [Argyle] got it wrong at the start was the people he put in charge, because Argyle’s got no idea about rugby league or about how to run a rugby league club,” the player said. “Obviously Covid’s stuffed Argyle just like it’s stuffed everyone.

“The club has the potential to be outstanding, it has the potential to be so good. But it’s just the wrong people in there. I don’t know, I have grave fears for this club.”

 <cough>

I suspect that Mr Argyle, like a lot of rich people, has been very successful in his chosen profession but knows very little about things outside that field, and therefore compensates by hiring people that he thinks can fill in the knowledge gaps for him, unfortunately he hired Mr Noble and Mr Vickers, the former an ex player who had a great career on the field, but outside a few years in charge of Bradford (when I think I might have won a few trophies with that team), has not been replicated off the field, the latter an administrator with a chequered past. Now one is gone, maybe the other also has to go if the club is to survive and prosper.

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9 hours ago, The Hallucinating Goose said:

You mention Perez here and this could be a big factor as to why some people are so critical. I'd never really thought before but it was Perez who said about developing Canadian talent and he who set out the 5 year plan and so forth. I remember that first year Toronto did that TV show where they ran trials for Canadians and Perez was saying about going to China and Brazil and running trials. I don't know what Perez's level of involvement these days, I don't think much. It is reasonable to say the people that have taken over the running of the organisation from him have no obligation carry on in the same direction he set out. 

Yeah, I sort of stumbled into that after you mentioned Perez. I think this is the reason why people are so critical of local and youth development, because so much was made of it at the start but as I say, different people are involved now. Has much been said about local development since Perez left? 

I mentioned Perez because it is noticeable how anything that was looking to build interest in the game from a playing point of view seemed to stop abruptly once he left. Now whether that’s coincidence, or like Harry suggests was never more than a PR exercise that Argyle didn’t see worth continuing, or whether the caliber of athlete could not be attracted due to the low salary (Big Pictures theory), or someone from Rugby Canada whispered in Mr Argyles ear to not tread on their toes we will never truly know. I think that’s why Ottawa is of such interest to me, if Perez is true to his word and they sign a core of locals and they put down roots to develop a conveyor belt of talent and if Ottawa takes a more gradual route to SL then we may have our answer. However what we will never know is how Argyles decisions were influenced by his so called RL expert executives and how much was influenced by a perceived view that SL would become a closed shop after the next TV deal was signed so he decided to forget the 5 year plan and get on the inside quickly. One thing is for sure, there’s more than a few things that don’t add up.

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That entire article could have been put together by simply cutting and pasting from this thread alone. Since some of the accusations have been floating around for some time there might be an element in truth in them, but to base it all on accusations from some anonymous disgruntled player is very poor journalism.

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3 hours ago, Omott91 said:

Whilst I agree with most of your post, I believe it's history repeating itself.

  The same people who criticise Toronto also lambasted Toulouse when they entered. The negative types just moved their attention to the new kids on the block.

Imo, no matter the issues, Toronto would have always been criticised, rightly or wrongly.     

A lot of these negative posters feel very insecure in regard to where their clubs stand and feel threatened by any newcomers.

A couple of these clubs are in the championship and that's where they belong.Unlike the Wolf Pack they offer nothing to SL.

The arrival of the Wolf Pack on the scene was like a breath of fresh air and I look forward to Ottawa arriving.

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1 hour ago, TIWIT said:

That entire article could have been put together by simply cutting and pasting from this thread alone. Since some of the accusations have been floating around for some time there might be an element in truth in them, but to base it all on accusations from some anonymous disgruntled player is very poor journalism.

That’s how journalism works, bud. No names, no pack drill. 

I’d be concerned that a current player would dare to use such strong terms even anonymously to the press -  it should tell you there’s something rotten.

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5 hours ago, Omott91 said:

Whilst I agree with most of your post, I believe it's history repeating itself.

  The same people who criticise Toronto also lambasted Toulouse when they entered. The negative types just moved their attention to the new kids on the block.

Imo, no matter the issues, Toronto would have always been criticised, rightly or wrongly.     

Some of the reasons I highlighted also apply to Toulouse, some don't. 

It is too easy to dismiss people as simply negative, that will only be a small part of it. 

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2 hours ago, TIWIT said:

That entire article could have been put together by simply cutting and pasting from this thread alone. Since some of the accusations have been floating around for some time there might be an element in truth in them, but to base it all on accusations from some anonymous disgruntled player is very poor journalism.

Articles like this are there to be believed or not, and ultimately it is a peed off employer complaining about late wages, it is for you to decide how serious that is. 

But the article does have a quote from Bob Hunter confirming payments have been delayed. 

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Fundamentally RL is not geared up for intercontinental league structures , the money isn't available to fund it , the lack of essentially any players from NA for what will be decades hinders it 

 

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5 hours ago, Oldbear said:

I mentioned Perez because it is noticeable how anything that was looking to build interest in the game from a playing point of view seemed to stop abruptly once he left. Now whether that’s coincidence, or like Harry suggests was never more than a PR exercise that Argyle didn’t see worth continuing, or whether the caliber of athlete could not be attracted due to the low salary (Big Pictures theory), or someone from Rugby Canada whispered in Mr Argyles ear to not tread on their toes we will never truly know. I think that’s why Ottawa is of such interest to me, if Perez is true to his word and they sign a core of locals and they put down roots to develop a conveyor belt of talent and if Ottawa takes a more gradual route to SL then we may have our answer. However what we will never know is how Argyles decisions were influenced by his so called RL expert executives and how much was influenced by a perceived view that SL would become a closed shop after the next TV deal was signed so he decided to forget the 5 year plan and get on the inside quickly. One thing is for sure, there’s more than a few things that don’t add up.

One thing that has emerged recently concerning Ottawa that makes me wonder about their continued commitment to such an approach is that in recent articles and statements concerning their entry into League 1 next year that they seem to suggest that the aim now is to gain promotion from League 1 in season 1. This is a change from the original 'it doesn't matter if it takes a few years to get promoted' type statements when first applying. This may be a response to New York's scheduled entry in 2022 as they don't want a Toronto-esque NA club visibly surpassing them in year 2 , or they may have even been asked to aim for promotion in year 1 by the RFL to avoid having 2 NA clubs in League 1 at the same time. It does make me wonder though whether they are switching towards more of a Toronto style approach rather than the embedding the club and sport in the community approach they originally espoused. That's not to say that they couldn't still do the community embedding things such as encouraging community clubs to be set up, engaging with schools etc.

There is also the issue of what happens to the proposed 10 players picked up via trials if Ottawa do gain promotion in year 1 and as is likely those players would be of League 1 standard at best (other than possibly 1 or 2 at most). If Ottawa move immediately to a standard of competition greater than the capabilities of those 10 then where will they go to? Ottawa could link with a league 1 club to allow them to play and develop (where possible) at that club once they can't make the Ottawa squad or they could set up a development/feeder club in the USA competition. That would be the preferable option in my view as it gives more opportunity for NA players to develop at a level that won't be such a steep learning curve in the early stages, it expands the NA domestic scene and it gives the Ottawa club management an outlet for holding further player trials going forward, and for supplying an opportunity for trialists that whilst having potential were not at the time up to the standard required by Ottawa for the first team squad. This is also as I posted previously something that TWP could do to look to produce a source of NA RL players even if they didn't ultimately feed in to Toronto's squad in the early days.

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1 hour ago, GUBRATS said:

Fundamentally RL is not geared up for intercontinental league structures , the money isn't available to fund it , the lack of essentially any players from NA for what will be decades hinders it 

 

Fundamentally RL is not geared up for London/Sheffield/Catalans/Toulouse/Gateshead/Wales/Coventry, the money isn't available to fund it, the lack of essentially any players from NA for what will be decades hinders it

Its not a perfect transliteration I'll admit, but you must see the consistent similarities in criticisms. There are plenty of other examples. Thats before we address the flaws with the money argument. 

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3 hours ago, Man of Kent said:

That’s how journalism works, bud. No names, no pack drill. 

I’d be concerned that a current player would dare to use such strong terms even anonymously to the press -  it should tell you there’s something rotten.

It would never be published over here, at least not by anyone reputable. Even the site I found it on originally has taken it down.

But it pretty much sums up the 'great divide' here re TWP. Those that hate them see it as justification for their dislike. Supporters just see a pack of malicious lies.

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5 minutes ago, TIWIT said:

It would never be published over here, at least not by anyone reputable. Even the site I found it on originally has taken it down.

But it pretty much sums up the 'great divide' here re TWP. Those that hate them see it as justification for their dislike. Supporters just see a pack of malicious lies.

Even with Bob Hunters quote confirming late payment of wages? 

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18 minutes ago, TIWIT said:

It would never be published over here, at least not by anyone reputable. Even the site I found it on originally has taken it down.

But it pretty much sums up the 'great divide' here re TWP. Those that hate them see it as justification for their dislike. Supporters just see a pack of malicious lies.

You justify DaveT’s point neatly that certain Wolfpack fans are rather childishly unable to accept criticism.

Here is a story - by a good journalist in a well-regarded national newspaper - quoting a Toronto player and verified by your CEO, yet you see a pack of malicious lies!

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