The General 'Toronto Wolfpack' Discussion Thread

[Yakstorm]

The stars have certainly aligned to make life as difficult as possible for Toronto, to the point where I'm not surprised this announcement was made.  The inability to actually convert sponsorships because the club is unlikely to be able to play in Toronto this year, the Visa issues, players returning home during the break and not necessarily being in a position to return in time for kick off, and the increased costs (and not foreseeable revenue) being based in the UK for the remainder of the year would make it difficult for any business.

It would be like asking any company to drastically increase costs, and cut your revenues by 95%+ and try and make it work.  Most would either go bust trying, or take the Toronto approach of cutting their losses, going into hibernation and hoping to emerge on the other side.

For me, the most frustrating part of this is the fact that they didn't make this decision before the recent 'Super League is returning' announcement.  Waiting until after the announcement makes the game look like amateur hour (not that we have to try hard) as we announced these amazing 21 games in 29 days all to be televised, puts pressure on our relationship with Sky (something we can't afford to do) and just creates a more negative public sentiment. 

Arguably if this was all sorted before the announcement, a nice story could have been painted that it was deemed in the interest of whatever (public safety, feasibility, etc) Toronto was going to sit out the season or alternatively, Toronto will start next year in the Championship and the Championship clubs can play for a promotion spot.

All in all not great... Anyway, I do sincerely hope that Toronto can come out the other side of this.    It is important for the game, both in the UK and in Canada, and for the likes of Ottawa, etc.  If they can take the field in 2021, whether that's in SL or back in the Championship, doesn't matter, we just need them.

There is a reason why the 2020 Super League seasons has generated more media coverage globally, especially in markets like Australia, New Zealand, UK, etc, than any other season, and the Wolfpack is a significant reason for that, and this is despite the season only lasting a few weeks so far...

[Big Picture]

2 hours ago, CanadianRugger said:

 

You can read between the lines, basically says the present model doesn't work.  Super League could give them their TV funding which they should have received in the first place.  

Forty20 podcast makes some good points.  Basically the conditions the RFL and SL placed Toronto under were untenable.

The podcast makes some excellent points, and Phil Caplan in particular brought out some sobering truths about the game and where it stands in the UK which echo what former St Helens chief executive Sean McGuire said in his three interviews with Tony Collins about why there's so little money in the game.

Here's a link to the podcast, everyone should give it a good listen.

[Oldbear]

4 hours ago, fcl said:

I would like to be able to read an article with real journalistic work on Toronto: who is David Argyle, what financial means does he have? Who does he rely on to manage the club? why so much change at the head of the club? The real crowds, the number of paying spectators, the contracts with the players, the recruitment strategy, the financial difficulties already encountered. What links in Canada? In England ? etc etc there are so many questions never addressed ...

I have only 2 things to say in response to this, Brian Noble and Martin Vickers, look at their past involvements then tell me whether you would hire either, sadly David Argyle obviously didn’t!

[Oldbear]

26 minutes ago, SL17 said:

RL is a hobby to these guys. You don’t pump money into this game expecting a return. 
The budget went through the window with SBW’s on board. 

These are facts, not tiddlywinks.

 

It also made it impossible to run a full squad under the salary cap, as did a number of other big signings. An accident waiting to happen.

[Oldbear]

4 minutes ago, SL17 said:

They didn’t have a full squad as the injuries took its toll. So in order to cover the injuries they wanted the SC raised.

Indeed an accident waiting to happen.

Again look at the administrators involved, and what happened when they were together at Salford, thankfully Salford righted themselves, thanks  to Ian Watson and competant management.

[ojx]

7 minutes ago, SL17 said:

You live and learn Personally Perez had the vision. 
 

And still does..

Perez is just a marketing man. If TWP go under, there will be no Ottawa or NY.

[Big Picture]

2 minutes ago, SL17 said:

But his vision will still remain. He left TWP for a reason. 

Hi vision of teams over here playing in the RFL structure is flawed though, as this exercise has demonstrated.

[Omott91]

My views on this are.

Argylle brought Twp into this world and will be around for as long as he continues to bankroll them. If they pull out and fold, which imo would be devastatingly, the it's purely his decision and I hope, that after all he has built and invested, he won't throw it all away.

On the RFL, the are not in the business of killing clubs. History has shown this with Bradford and Widnes with their various issues both living to see another day, in Bradford's case multiple times. As long as Argylle sticks around, so will Twp, as he has shown no signs of leaving.

I do find it somewhat interesting that only hours after Twp's announcement, relegation was scrapped for this year. Hopefully that is a sign.

I believe Twp will be around in Super League for '21, but beginning on - points to start the season, similar to Bradford and Widnes.

As for Ottawa and NYC, their existence doesn't hang or correlate to Twp. In saying that, if this had happened to Twp last year, then yes, the chances of Ottawa and NYC happening would be slim.

 

[Oldbear]

3 minutes ago, Omott91 said:

My views on this are.

Argylle brought Twp into this world and will be around for as long as he continues to bankroll them. If they pull out and fold, which imo would be devastatingly, the it's purely his decision and I hope, that after all he has built and invested, he won't throw it all away.

On the RFL, the are not in the business of killing clubs. History has shown this with Bradford and Widnes with their various issues both living to see another day, in Bradford's case multiple times. As long as Argylle sticks around, so will Twp, as he has shown no signs of leaving.

I do find it somewhat interesting that only hours after Twp's announcement, relegation was scrapped for this year. Hopefully that is a sign.

I believe Twp will be around in Super League for '21, but beginning on - points to start the season, similar to Bradford and Widnes.

As for Ottawa and NYC, their existence doesn't hang or correlate to Twp. In saying that, if this had happened to Twp last year, then yes, the chances of Ottawa and NYC happening would be slim.

 

Taking your points in turn

1. Totally correct, no Argyle, no TWP, what he is really thinking is of course a mystery to us all now.

2. Correct but they aren’t always great at helping either, and tend to allow too many rescue bids which really have little substance to them, Bradford fans in particular know this one.

3. I think that was on the cards anyway, the Championship was having problems restarting so how could you have P&R

4. Think you are being optimistic here, even if that did happen starting on - points would pretty much nail them on as certs to go down next year. Better to regroup back in the Championship if Argyles is still up for it.

5. No TWP no Ottawa and NY has always struck me as a pipe dream.

[ojx]

34 minutes ago, SL17 said:

But his vision will still remain. He left TWP for a reason. 

Trust me, there is no way Ottawa will go ahead without Toronto.

[Omott91]

1 minute ago, Oldbear said:

5. No TWP no Ottawa

Why do you say this?

In my opinion they are not dependent on each other.

The only thing that will stop Ottawa is Covid due to travel.

[ojx]

4 minutes ago, Omott91 said:

Why do you say this?

In my opinion they are not dependent on each other.

The only thing that will stop Ottawa is Covid due to travel.

No way can there be an Ottawa without Toronto. It is going to be hard enough to get fans there in the first place, but when they hear that Toronto has failed, I can't see it happening. Toronto is the fastest growing city in North America, Ottawa is a sleepy town of government workers.

[unapologetic pedant]

Without getting into the general politics too much I think the whole management of Covid across the World is a mistake.

It`s surely the absence of political certainty over when this will end that makes TWP unsustainable in its current model. The way dates are put back, restrictions eased then reimposed, talk of second waves, third waves. How can anyone, particularly a business like TWP, plan anything?

If next year approximate normality resumed, then there was another outbreak or a vaccine failed, the owners know that all the same moral blackmail will be marshalled to urge travel bans and lockdowns, and that politicians will succumb to it.

[Omott91]

When news like this breaks it's important to think rationally and not go straight to worst case scenario because negativity breeds negativity and can become contagious.

1. Make sure the players/staff are paid.

2. Sort out VISA issues over the coming weeks or months to get it 100% right.

3. Accept whatever the punishment may be and make sure the survival of the club is secured.

4. Use the following months to regroup for the start of next year.

These are uncertain times. Every club below Super League has stopped playing, Twp have just become the first Super League club to join the list.

[Eddie]

I don’t understand this talk of punishment, punishment for what, being victims of a global pandemic. It’s perfectly obvious that it’s harder for Toronto to resume than it is for anyone else due to travel and visa restrictions, no other club has that problem, not even Catalans. SL should be supporting TWP not punishing them, RL isn’t big enough to destroy clubs like that. 

[Lowdesert]

1 hour ago, Omott91 said:

When news like this breaks it's important to think rationally and not go straight to worst case scenario because negativity breeds negativity and can become contagious.

1. Make sure the players/staff are paid.

2. Sort out VISA issues over the coming weeks or months to get it 100% right.

3. Accept whatever the punishment may be and make sure the survival of the club is secured.

4. Use the following months to regroup for the start of next year.

These are uncertain times. Every club below Super League has stopped playing, Twp have just become the first Super League club to join the list.

Seems the staff payments might be true according to this piece in the YP and Tony Smiths comments regarding Ryan Brierley and his time there.

https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/sport/rugby-league/hull-krs-tony-smith-not-surprised-toronto-wolfpacks-super-league-downfall-2919180

[Sir Kevin Sinfield]

48 minutes ago, Eddie said:

I don’t understand this talk of punishment, punishment for what, being victims of a global pandemic. It’s perfectly obvious that it’s harder for Toronto to resume than it is for anyone else due to travel and visa restrictions, no other club has that problem, not even Catalans. SL should be supporting TWP not punishing them, RL isn’t big enough to destroy clubs like that. 

Toronto Wolfpack, a club that has cost the game £0, every single penny has come out of David Argyle’s pocket. Surely now we can see what a great thing we could have for the game, now is the time to look at them and support them. How?

Give them a share of the tv deal, even if it’s not the full amount, strike some deal, for example Toronto get 50% (compared to UK clubs) of the sky tv deal, and the 11 SL clubs get 50% of any US or Canadian tv deal. 

[Chrispmartha]

5 hours ago, frank said:

Nothing super about SL.With a bit of  encouragement and an equal share of  tv money things may have worked out different.

Or maybe if they weren’t spending £3million a year on one player it may have worked out differently?

[Robin Evans]

11 minutes ago, Chrispmartha said:

Or maybe if they weren’t spending £3million a year on one player it may have worked out differently?

Absolutely.

[Eddie]

45 minutes ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

Toronto Wolfpack, a club that has cost the game £0, every single penny has come out of David Argyle’s pocket. Surely now we can see what a great thing we could have for the game, now is the time to look at them and support them. How?

Give them a share of the tv deal, even if it’s not the full amount, strike some deal, for example Toronto get 50% (compared to UK clubs) of the sky tv deal, and the 11 SL clubs get 50% of any US or Canadian tv deal. 

Agree entirely, TWP are a gift horse, I can’t believe how many people are against them, especially those running the game. 

[Eddie]

28 minutes ago, Chrispmartha said:

Or maybe if they weren’t spending £3million a year on one player it may have worked out differently?

One player who massively raised their (and SL’s) profile. TWP have given rugby league more column inches than the rest of the 11 SL clubs combined have for the last decade. 

[Man of Kent]

Morning, all.

In the real world, Super League will not set a precedent for the bottom-placed club to throw in the towel midway through the year without sanctions.

[Chrispmartha]

Just now, Eddie said:

One player who massively raised their (and SL’s) profile. TWP have given rugby league more column inches than the rest of the 11 SL clubs combined have for the last decade. 

The point being you cannot cry the poor tale when spending more than the whole cap on one player, he may have given some good publicity but the fact they are struggling now and not paying players is arguably giving more column inches but not in a good way.

look I want Toronto to succeed but let’s not kid ourselves that they haven’t caused a lot of this themselves.

[terrywebbisgod]

Just now, Chrispmartha said:

The point being you cannot cry the poor tale when spending more than the whole cap on one player, he may have given some good publicity but the fact they are struggling now and not paying players is arguably giving more column inches but not in a good way.

look I want Toronto to succeed but let’s not kid ourselves that they haven’t caused a lot of this themselves.

Indeed they have but as usual they have been badly treated by the "haters" and "naysayers".

They may be back next season but with a points penalty and a reduced squad.

 

[Dave T]

8 hours ago, Hela Wigmen said:

 

He’s comparing two completely different organisations of two incredibly different sizes, he’s failing to acknowledge the cancellation of the NSW Cup and Queensland Cup, he’s failing to acknowledge any failings of the club and he’s put a weird dig in their about young English blokes going to Australia, apart from that he’s spot on. 

 

8 hours ago, Hela Wigmen said:

 

He’s comparing two completely different organisations of two incredibly different sizes, he’s failing to acknowledge the cancellation of the NSW Cup and Queensland Cup, he’s failing to acknowledge any failings of the club and he’s put a weird dig in their about young English blokes going to Australia, apart from that he’s spot on. 

People are saying McCrone is right, but he isn't saying anything of any substance in that tweet. 

He's listed a few areas and said the NRL is bigger than Super League. 

I'm not sure of the relevance of the NRL relocating families and players. Location of players isn't an issue. Visa issues had been sorted. 

Some of our biggest clubs have called out massive losses - Leeds around £4m, Wire £1.5m, Wigan admitting they are pumping cash in, the others will be the same, the RFL saying they will miss out on £3m from the Ashes and so on. 

I have a lot of sympathy for TWP, with all the scenario planning in the world they wouldn't have expected what is happening now, hence being reasonable when it comes to the fallout, but they need to be reasonable on that side too. 

Bob Hunter spoke well about this, it is a horrendous situation created by coronavirus.