Derwent Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 8 minutes ago, Eddie said: One player who massively raised their (and SL’s) profile. TWP have given rugby league more column inches than the rest of the 11 SL clubs combined have for the last decade. And the tangible benefits of that have been......? I’m not prejudiced, I hate everybody equally Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 5 minutes ago, Chrispmartha said: The point being you cannot cry the poor tale when spending more than the whole cap on one player, he may have given some good publicity but the fact they are struggling now and not paying players is arguably giving more column inches but not in a good way. look I want Toronto to succeed but let’s not kid ourselves that they haven’t caused a lot of this themselves. TWP have absolutely made a lot of bad decisions. Even before coronavirus, but that is part of the learning curve. But when deciding on future action, we should remove all impacts of coronavirus. If coronavirus hadn't come along, could they have paid, would they have been an asset to SL, and could they be an asset in 2021, if the answer is yes, and they can provide guarantees and learn from past actions, I think there is a place for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 4 minutes ago, Derwent said: And the tangible benefits of that have been......? Whilst I think the SBW signing is a poor one, the reason we can't see any tangible benefits (or not) is because of coronavirus. We could only judge at the end of the year when income, crowds, sponsorship, viewing figs etc. come in. It's a slightly unfair question in the current climate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrispmartha Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 1 minute ago, Dave T said: TWP have absolutely made a lot of bad decisions. Even before coronavirus, but that is part of the learning curve. But when deciding on future action, we should remove all impacts of coronavirus. If coronavirus hadn't come along, could they have paid, would they have been an asset to SL, and could they be an asset in 2021, if the answer is yes, and they can provide guarantees and learn from past actions, I think there is a place for them. I quite agree, but we need to be pragmatic, TWP are not the saviours of RL to be preserved at all costs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 Just now, Chrispmartha said: I quite agree, but we need to be pragmatic, TWP are not the saviours of RL to be preserved at all costs I don't think my approach above suggests they are. But I'd rather run with a 12 team SL and if they were to fail, I'd rather it was because of their own performance, whereas the world going crazy is not that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damien Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 5 minutes ago, Derwent said: And the tangible benefits of that have been......? Well none because of Coronavirus and the fact they have been able to play at home. I don't think any contingency planning could have foreseen that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Stottle Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 9 hours ago, Loup said: Wonder if she's John Davidson's source? Even so, really poor form. I think under the present circumstances in how Mr Davidson was described and ridiculed by some in these pages just for doing his job, he is owed a huge apology. He intimated there was more to come, he definitely wasn't wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrispmartha Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 6 minutes ago, Damien said: Well none because of Coronavirus and the fact they have been able to play at home. I don't think any contingency planning could have foreseen that. No it couldn't and I have a lot of sympathy for their plight, however when you spend so much on one player then you struggle to pay players questions have to be asked coronavirus or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrispmartha Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 8 minutes ago, Dave T said: I don't think my approach above suggests they are. But I'd rather run with a 12 team SL and if they were to fail, I'd rather it was because of their own performance, whereas the world going crazy is not that. No I'm not suggesting you were saying that, it was more a general comment about how some people view TWP. I'm more than happy for them to compete next year in SL, I do think they need some kind of punishment for just packing up shop after they had given assurance that they would play this year though. I'm also more than happy if they get their fair share if the TV money, I personally don't think having that this year would have stopped what has happened though, the Visa situation for one is nothing to do with money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkw Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 6 minutes ago, Chrispmartha said: No it couldn't and I have a lot of sympathy for their plight, however when you spend so much on one player then you struggle to pay players questions have to be asked coronavirus or not. But the reason they are struggling to pay other players is entirely due to the virus, they will have budgeted his wages in with all the incomings and outgoings and it would have balanced. Except now they have 0 incomings, none at all, not even central funding from the RFL. Weighting all of this against one signing is wrong, signing SBW has nothing to do with the predicament they are in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Kevin Sinfield Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 1 minute ago, Chrispmartha said: No I'm not suggesting you were saying that, it was more a general comment about how some people view TWP. I'm more than happy for them to compete next year in SL, I do think they need some kind of punishment for just packing up shop after they had given assurance that they would play this year though. I'm also more than happy if they get their fair share if the TV money, I personally don't think having that this year would have stopped what has happened though, the Visa situation for one is nothing to do with money. There are lessons to be learnt. But why have Catalans survived and been a success whereas Toronto are on the brink? Catalans get a share of the sky tv money, Toronto do not. Catalans entered our league system in Super League, Toronto entered in League One. Catalans do not pay away teams travel costs, Toronto do pay away teams travel costs. Catalans were exempt from relegation for 3 years, Toronto were not given any exemption. Toronto can be saved if we recognise where we’ve gone wrong and correct it immediately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 1 minute ago, Chrispmartha said: No I'm not suggesting you were saying that, it was more a general comment about how some people view TWP. I'm more than happy for them to compete next year in SL, I do think they need some kind of punishment for just packing up shop after they had given assurance that they would play this year though. I'm also more than happy if they get their fair share if the TV money, I personally don't think having that this year would have stopped what has happened though, the Visa situation for one is nothing to do with money. If they want to play in SL next year and can guarantee their participation (in a normal world)' I think a decent fine/fee should be enough. They have brought SL into disrepute by the timing of this and backing out of commitments, but as I listed earlier, we have had to cancel all sorts of stuff. I just wish they had done this before the restart detail announcements as it could have been stage-managed. The risk is do the other clubs see that as a dirty tactic to try and secure the finance from the clubs that they asked for. But had this been announced a few weeks ago, it could have been presented pretty reasonably that trans-atlantic travel is impossible this year so TWP would hibernate until next season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henson Park Old Firm Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 If any club deserve to be back in SL, it's gotta be Oldham... there fan's are the most passionate. I remember in 97 in a local pub 3 Man U fan's walk into the pub and said to this bloke who was wearing a Oldam RL jersey, he looks like Magrate Thatcher and rugby league sucks. He got out of his chair knocked all 3 of them out... and even took one of the Man U supports jersey off while he was out cold, as a trophy. To this day the jersey is framed and hanged up at the pub (with a small amount of blood on it) The funny thing is the bloke still drinks there and oddly enough he sort of does look like the former Prime Minister Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 Just now, dkw said: But the reason they are struggling to pay other players is entirely due to the virus, they will have budgeted his wages in with all the incomings and outgoings and it would have balanced. Except now they have 0 incomings, none at all, not even central funding from the RFL. Weighting all of this against one signing is wrong, signing SBW has nothing to do with the predicament they are in. It's not quite true it has nothing to do with it. Spending £5m on wages instead of £2.5m increases risk, but nobody could plan for covid so its harsh to judge them on that. But your main point is exactly right, their budget has been shattered. So have many others, but government support, and being able to play some games in our home territory, maybe even with crowds will help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Man of Kent Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 11 minutes ago, Dave T said: If they want to play in SL next year and can guarantee their participation (in a normal world)' I think a decent fine/fee should be enough. Fee?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Stottle Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 8 hours ago, CanadianRugger said: "For now both Super League and the Rugby Football League should learn exactly what it takes and what is needed for expansion teams, especially ones in the USA and Canada, to come in." The bit above is from Mr Argyle's press statement, Have I not been saying for long time that Toronto Wolfpack are a work in progress, a prototype that is not proven and before going "into production" and admitting other clubs, learn the positives and negatives from Toronto's experiences in the RFL, the decide if NA teams are a fit into our structure. It is simple business practice, but hey the band was playing, the flags were waving, the drum was bashed and the majorettes were dancing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Kevin Sinfield Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 Just now, Man of Kent said: Fee?! Toronto could return all the central funding they have received over the last 4 years. That seems a reasonable fee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Stottle Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 4 hours ago, Omott91 said: beginning on - points to start the season, similar to Bradford and Widnes. Bradford started on Negative Points in the Championship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Man of Kent Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 7 minutes ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said: Toronto could return all the central funding they have received over the last 4 years. That seems a reasonable fee. Zzz. That was the deal they struck. At the time everybody was happy. It’s only now that Toronto has realised a big NA TV deal was fantasyland that they want central funding. I’d imagine David Argyle has destroyed any remaining trust within the game about the Toronto Wolfpack and after this week Super League will see any talk of ‘guarantees’ as hollow. Several SL chairmen were critical of Toronto at the best of times - penny for their thoughts now. They may have to press the reset button and work their way up again, but this time as a full RFL member, perhaps taking a licence from a League 1 club. I think it’s more likely that Argyle pulls out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 55 minutes ago, Derwent said: And the tangible benefits of that have been......? Publicity, merchandise, ticket sales, sponsorship etc. It’s called marketing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Stottle Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 46 minutes ago, Dave T said: I don't think my approach above suggests they are. But I'd rather run with a 12 team SL and if they were to fail, I'd rather it was because of their own performance, whereas the world going crazy is not that. Do you not think that if Toronto under normal circumstances had finished bottom this year, that the very same people who are shouting the loudest at this situation, would not again have taken up the mantle again and campaigned that "They cannot be allowed to be relegated" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 24 minutes ago, Man of Kent said: Fee?! A payment to SL. I've long thought we should just pay admission fees and scrap the expenses payments etc. keep things simpler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 3 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said: Do you not think that if Toronto under normal circumstances had finished bottom this year, that the very same people who are shouting the loudest at this situation, would not again have taken up the mantle again and campaigned that "They cannot be allowed to be relegated" Of course, but that's not really relevant. Plenty have been up front with believing in relegation exemptions, or even scrapping p and r altogether. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Kevin Sinfield Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 6 minutes ago, Man of Kent said: Zzz. That was the deal they struck. At the time everybody was happy. It’s only now that Toronto has realised a big NA TV deal was fantasyland that they want central funding. I’d imagine David Argyle has destroyed any remaining trust within the game about the Toronto Wolfpack and after this week Super League will see any talk of ‘guarantees’ as hollow. Several SL chairmen were critical of Toronto at the best of times - penny for their thoughts now. They may have to press the reset button and work their way up again, but this time as a full RFL member, perhaps taking a licence from a League 1 club. I think it’s more likely that Argyle pulls out. Toronto said they’d take no central funding and pay other clubs travel costs until they got into Super League. Once they reached Super League they were supposed to compete on a level playing field on even terms. Robert Elstone refused to give Toronto their share and distributed it to the other Super League clubs. Elstone seems to be silent now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 1 minute ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said: Toronto said they’d take no central funding and pay other clubs travel costs until they got into Super League. Once they reached Super League they were supposed to compete on a level playing field on even terms. Robert Elstone refused to give Toronto their share and distributed it to the other Super League clubs. Elstone seems to be silent now. I'm sure the contract they have stating all that will be enforceable then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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