The General 'Toronto Wolfpack' Discussion Thread

[Big Picture]

2 hours ago, TheReaper said:

I always under the impression that is was SL clubs that pushed for TWP to find their own TV deal, and for them to split the English one, so they could have more money and not have to do any work getting a Canadian broadcaster.

NOT, that TWP wanted to go it alone, and keep any rights money for themselves. 

Could be wrong, but I've been arguing that everything should be divided equally since it came up, so I've thought this whole time that that aspect was a requirement of Super League, not the other way around.

That's how I remember it too.

[Omott91]

41 minutes ago, Loup said:

This link works in Canada.

https://www.skysports.com/watch/video/sports/rugby-league/12033500/david-argyle-to-continue-toronto-wolfpack-venture

This might be a second bit of same interview, but can't view in Canada.

https://www.skysports.com/watch/video/sports/rugby-league/12033497/david-argyle-short-sighted-to-not-continue-toronto-venture

Neither work here in Australia as it says I need to log in.

What does he say?

[Oldbear]

6 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

When they ' purchase ' west Wales and get their membership and set up an academy there for a couple of years , all will be good

If so tell West Wales to bank the cheque ASAP!

[kiwis 13 6]

1 hour ago, nadera78 said:

It's actually worse than that. TWP get nothing from the UK TV deal, whilst the North American rights had already been sold (for a packet of monkey nuts), so TWP couldn't sell them themselves anyway.

TWP currently bring nothing but future potential to the table regarding tv rights, sponsorship reach, merchandise sales. TWP can ask for a slice of the pie before they contribute a profit from the Canadian market to the Super League, but yeah dont like there chances. Catalans are very lucky to have had the support of the Super League club grant all these years, while only having a TV deals that covered costs at best. NZ Warriors in the NRL generate millions each year in profit to the NRL in Australia, that profit gets spent on NRL admin costs and given to Australian grassroots game as a grants. NZ has seen no NRL reinvestment in the NZ grassroots game in 25 years. Imagine if  NZ had no $20 million per year TV rights deal and provided no other NZ revenue streams for the NRL but the NZ Warriors still wanted the $12 million annual club grant from the NRL. Basically NZ Warriors would not be in the NRL in that situation.

[Oldbear]

I know I’m a bit of an odd bod on here, in that I have always supported expansion clubs and am very much in favour of expansion, but at the same time feel it should never be at the expense of the heartland, I would love Newcastle Thunder to make it to SL and play here in Canada against Toronto Wolfpack, but I want it done the right way, not by being parachuted in, and I also want the likes of Leigh and Fev to have a chance, as well as Bradford getting the right to reclaim former glories, and the only way to do that is on the field of play, not some arbitrary scoring system where artist impressions of new stadiums score you points to stay in. I cannot comprehend what exactly has happened in Toronto, and may never know the full story, I suspect there has been mismanagement on a grand scale and Mr Argyle realizes he has been taken for a fool by these so called administrators and is looking to blow the whole thing up and start again with no historical baggage. The problem with that is the players, although almost certainly paid way more than their talents suggest they should have been, are now being hurt and that’s not right. Neither is it right to screw around with suppliers, people’s livelihoods are at stake, at a time when a lot of businesses are struggling. Now this should apply to all clubs, if they can’t play fair it’s time to go, and as far as the RFL is concerned they need to administer the game fairly, not bend over for certain teams at the expense of others. Rant over!

[kiwis 13 6]

I remember when TWP idea was 1st put forward i was skeptical of it and said due diligence would need to be done. Obviously part of that due diligence should have included the situation where travel is partially or totally restricted... in the past there has been terrorism, Volcanic ash and now a pandemic. Surely a plan B for this scenario must have been discussed by TWP and Super League.  

[Smudger06]

5 hours ago, gittinsfan said:

Let's talk hypothetical.

If TW got their own TV deal worth (lets say) £5 M per year.Do you think SL would be happy for them to keep it all?

The deal is that TWP keep the 1st £1.85m and the remainder gets split all 12 ways. 

[Smudger06]

1 hour ago, Omott91 said:

Does anyone have access to or have watched the Sky video of Argyle pledging to continue to support Twp?

Yes. He states the total cost of TWP is £18m sterling spent to date. 

[Yakstorm]

3 minutes ago, kiwis 13 6 said:

I remember when TWP idea was 1st put forward i was skeptical of it and said due diligence would need to be done. Obviously part of that due diligence should have included the situation where travel is partially or totally restricted... in the past there has been terrorism, Volcanic ash and now a pandemic. Surely a plan B for this scenario must have been discussed by TWP and Super League.  

Talk about comparing Apples with Concords.... September 11, one of the larger terrorist events in Western culture, saw flights stopped for less than 48 hours, the Eyjafjallajökull eruption, which was the most impactful in terms of its affects on international flights, grounded everyone in Europe for 6 days.

Even more recent Pandemics or Coronaviruses, such as Ebola, SARS, MERS, H1N1, etc, have at worst prevented travel for maybe a couple of weeks.

Nothing has gone on for a month, let alone months, and honestly if it was only 2-3 months worth of impact, Toronto wouldn't be pulling out, but instead, we don't even know if there will be travel between the UK & Canada or crowds this time next year.

[kiwis 13 6]

5 hours ago, gittinsfan said:

Let's talk hypothetical.

If TW got their own TV deal worth (lets say) £5 M per year.Do you think SL would be happy for them to keep it all?

This is not hypothetical the NZ TV rights provides $20 million per year to NRL who provide $12 million a year grant to all clubs including the NZ Warriors, so profit made by the NZ TV deal alone is $8 million per year NRL keeps all of that profit in Australia.

[kiwis 13 6]

1 minute ago, Yakstorm said:

Talk about comparing Apples with Concords.... September 11, one of the larger terrorist events in Western culture, saw flights stopped for less than 48 hours, the Eyjafjallajökull eruption, which was the most impactful in terms of its affects on international flights, grounded everyone in Europe for 6 days.

Even more recent Pandemics or Coronaviruses, such as Ebola, SARS, MERS, H1N1, etc, have at worst prevented travel for maybe a couple of weeks.

Nothing has gone on for a month, let alone months, and honestly if it was only 2-3 months worth of impact, Toronto wouldn't be pulling out, but instead, we don't even know if there will be travel between the UK & Canada or crowds this time next year.

Surely one of the most obvious points about a North American team in a UK competition is that any restrictions to travel would impact the competition. My points about previous recent travel interruptions are valid and the impact of 9/11 on Air travel has been much more than 48 hours after the event... surely there must have been some sort of discussion and plan B surrounding travel restrictions both short and longer term?

[Yakstorm]

30 minutes ago, kiwis 13 6 said:

Surely one of the most obvious points about a North American team in a UK competition is that any restrictions to travel would impact the competition. My points about previous recent travel interruptions are valid and the impact of 9/11 on Air travel has been much more than 48 hours after the event... surely there must have been some sort of discussion and plan B surrounding travel restrictions both short and longer term?

I have no doubt there were discussions around short term interruptions of travel and what would happen, but again everything else beforehand has been resolved in a matter of weeks.  

Using 9/11, International travel in and out of the USA was only paused from September 11 until September 13, that is well documented. Yes they did add additional security and scrutiny to the whole international flying process, but it didn't stop people getting in and out of the country, same with the likes of bird flu, ebola, SARS, MERS, additional precautions were put up, but the basic premise of getting around the globe wasn't impacted for very long.

You could argue if it was so obvious this could happen for this long, how come no airline in the world was prepared for it, if it is so foreseeable that travel could be hindered for such long periods? I mean why are they needing government handouts?   

[GUBRATS]

4 hours ago, TIWIT said:

Don't bother trying to engage him in any sort of reasonable discussion. It's like wrestling a pig.

So which sports club ( we'll keep it as a team sport for sensibility ) has all its playing staff based on a different continent to its ' home ? 

That was the question , can you provide a non stupid answer ?

[JohnM]

In my opinion, the whole episode puts our sport in a bad light.  Here is (or rather here WAS) a club that went from zero to hero in just a few short years, capturing the imagination of many, bringing an appealing  freshness of approach,  against a constant  background hum of negativity from this side of the Atlantic.

I know I sound like a broken record, but the world has changed in the last 30 years. People have horseless carriages, decent homes , motorways and dual carriageways make travel between major towns and cities so much easier,. Miserable old stadiums have gone and miserable old gits like me really are a dying breed. The stadium issue has been largely fixed, but are the oldies being replaced by the yoof?  Where are they on this forum, then, or is it just for the over 50s?

Lots of people doing sterling work in the youth and amateur segments but it's young spectators , becoming  lifelong paying TV and llive spectators that we need to bring money into the game.

I've not been to Toronto and never will but I am left with the binding impression that the Wolf pack had seriously broken through into thd younger market, and had built a level of excitement and match day experience that we rarely experience here. Sure, were not talking Manchester City levels of impact, but we need Torontos, not fewer.   

 

[Robin Evans]

2 minutes ago, JohnM said:

I've not been to Toronto and never will but I am left with the binding impression that the Wolf pack had seriously broken through into thd younger market, and had built a level of excitement and match day experience that we rarely experience here. Sure, were not talking Manchester City levels of impact, but we need Torontos, not fewer.   

 

I've been to Toronto just the once. It was fabulous. I thoroughly enjoyed the trip...but i love Canada so it didn't come as a surprise.

My experience of match day would suggest me and my two pals raised the average age. The Toronto crowd had many University age and young adults speccies in their crowd.

I've never been convinced about Toronto. I've always felt uneasy about their inclusion. I went along with the hype but without the same enthusiasm that I might have had if say toulouse was in SL....

Tread with lots of caution now. I would find it difficult trusting Argyle.

[Robin Evans]

10 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

Mr Beaumont will leave Leigh if licencing returns , he , like me knows Leigh will never be offered one , I know this because he told me so , he only came back to Leigh ( he rejoined the ownership of Leigh by buying my shares off me ) when on the pitch P and R returned , and will not remain if it ends 

If you tried your best to find a location least suitable to be offered a licence , you would put a pin in the map on Leigh , probably next would be Fev , we are under no illusions , and as Harry and Robin have stated what they will do if it returns , so will I , I did so last time , it took a couple of years , but I lost interest , I attended more away games than home more for a day out than the RL 

Aye.... we know each other steve. I know exactly what you would do. I know you went away last time.... i didn't.... i clung to the hope p&r would return if there was a sustained campaign and/or the telly lot wanted it. Fortunately,  they did. Im at an age now that I would just call it a day. No big drama. Yes, I would be whingeworthy... ad infinitum.... but that would be me done. I have no idea if campbell would remain at fev. It wouldn't surprise me if he said "sod it"!

 

 

[Dave T]

8 hours ago, gittinsfan said:

Let's talk hypothetical.

If TW got their own TV deal worth (lets say) £5 M per year.Do you think SL would be happy for them to keep it all?

No, I don't think that is the agreement. I think when they started to contribute they would get a share. 

It's a little like after 15 years Catalans still don't contribute with an overseas TV deal - SLE have been cynical of all the claims of the huge commercial deals that would be incoming. They put the onus on TWP to prove it. 

This is one area where SL has failed, in the 15 years Catalans have been around, SL has never capitalised and got commercial deals of any kind from France, but this has added to the cynicism imo, that converting expansion teams into cold hard cash is unlikely for a long time. 

Whether Sky and UK sponsors pay more due to a vibrant comp that the likes of Catalans add to is one for debate. But TWP didn't exactly make a great start in SL, sure they made a big signing, but they started with a bit of a whimper and a load of negativity. Things like the game at the HJ versus Saints were not good for SL. 

But to finish off on the original question, SLE hold the cards here, they can absolutely demand that new clubs they are cynical about pay to play in SL rather than dealing in what some people as fantasy cheques. 

[Tommygilf]

1 hour ago, GUBRATS said:

So which sports club ( we'll keep it as a team sport for sensibility ) has all its playing staff based on a different continent to its ' home ? 

That was the question , can you provide a non stupid answer ?

Which other transatlantic sports club is there? 

[Man of Kent]

26 minutes ago, Dave T said:

But to finish off on the original question, SLE hold the cards here, they can absolutely demand that new clubs they are cynical about pay to play in SL rather than dealing in what some people as fantasy cheques. 

Bribery... 

To be fair a ‘fee’ is a reasonable answer to Toronto’s lack of TV deal/Sky TV subscriber base, minuscule away support, travel costs etc.

[kiwis 13 6]

2 hours ago, Yakstorm said:

I have no doubt there were discussions around short term interruptions of travel and what would happen, but again everything else beforehand has been resolved in a matter of weeks.  

Using 9/11, International travel in and out of the USA was only paused from September 11 until September 13, that is well documented. Yes they did add additional security and scrutiny to the whole international flying process, but it didn't stop people getting in and out of the country, same with the likes of bird flu, ebola, SARS, MERS, additional precautions were put up, but the basic premise of getting around the globe wasn't impacted for very long.

You could argue if it was so obvious this could happen for this long, how come no airline in the world was prepared for it, if it is so foreseeable that travel could be hindered for such long periods? I mean why are they needing government handouts?   

Obviously almost nobody could see Covid-19 was going to happen when it did. The chances of something happening eg some unforseen emergency preventing trans Atlantic flights or even sudden withdrawal of major financial backer are well within the realms of possibility. Should been a plan B and C in place but theres not.

[Damien]

5 hours ago, nadera78 said:

It's actually worse than that. TWP get nothing from the UK TV deal, whilst the North American rights had already been sold (for a packet of monkey nuts), so TWP couldn't sell them themselves anyway.

A very good point that often gets forgot.

[Derwent]

1 hour ago, Dave T said:

SLE have been cynical of all the claims of the huge commercial deals that would be incoming.

This is the crux of the matter - when you make big statements you have to deliver.

Unlike some of the fantasists on here who believe any old guff that Toronto come out with, SLE have called their bluff and said show us the money.

I mean, as an example, last year they made big claims about a deal for some kind of CBD oil product range that was going to net them millions a year - obviously that hasn't happened. Its just one of many.

[Damien]

5 hours ago, Loup said:

This link works in Canada.

https://www.skysports.com/watch/video/sports/rugby-league/12033500/david-argyle-to-continue-toronto-wolfpack-venture

This might be a second bit of same interview, but can't view in Canada.

https://www.skysports.com/watch/video/sports/rugby-league/12033497/david-argyle-short-sighted-to-not-continue-toronto-venture

Thanks for that, both very good interviews.

I like what I have heard so far from both Argyle and Hunter. They both don't sound like guys who just want to give up and walk away which is great.

I think it would be pretty terrible to throw all of this away. Toronto and the game have come too far just to let that happen. What has happened has happened and the focus now should be on the RFL, SL and Toronto working together to make this work. Compromises need to be made on both sides for the betterment of the game as a whole.

I think Toronto need to be made full member and operate on an even footing with better concessions when it comes to playing their games in blocks. Maybe Toronto buying a license for £2 million, to be split between clubs, could be used as a sweetener. Toronto need to act on what Arygle is saying about developing the game in Canada and getting more people playing the game. A goal of a Canadian competition with say 6 clubs in the Toronto and surrounding areas and 6 clustered around Ottawa, under the same proviso, should be a must along with youth development.

As Argyle says the hard work has already been done. The game would be mad to throw it away.

 

[LeytherRob]

9 hours ago, Kayakman said:

Brian Noble just now on twitter:  "Toronto is getting a raw deal and the current situation needs to be amended.   It would be in the best interests of SL to do this."

Bradford, crusaders, Salford, now Toronto. 

Brian Noble has a long record of leaving clubs in a much, much worse state than he finds them, with bloated contracts and poor squads. If I were him I'd keeping my head below the parapet.

[tms]

1 hour ago, JohnM said:

, but are the oldies being replaced by the yoof?   Where are they on this forum, then, or is it just for the over 50s?

Think so my tribe of grand kids all love FEV as much as me and go to all FEV's home games and the older ones travel to away games as well   

In relation to the forum  the older ones wouldn't be seen dead on it  but are always on FEV@s facebook twitter and instagram accounts