The General 'Toronto Wolfpack' Discussion Thread

[dkw]

1 hour ago, Dave T said:

It's a bit more difficult at the moment working at home. My wife is far less gullible than my boss!!!

Wait, they are different people?

[CanadianRugger]

18 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I think there is something in using games, rather then necessarily cold hard cash to assist with expansion. Not unlike the fact that in next year's World Cup we now have 5 internationals, including the opener, plus Magic Weekend being played in the North East that can support the development that is ongoing there. I was a big fan of the 'On the Road' games that we did for a year before sacking off due to lack of patience and the results not being immediate.

I think we should be doing more in London, we should always have a decent presence, maybe Magic, Challenge Cup and an International - giving a regular program of games that can be pushed to new fans in the capital every year without fail. It is all too sporadic at the moment.

We also could have done this in Canada in advance of TWP's SL entry - we could have staged a SL game or two, maybe an England game.

But ultimately the problem is that we don't have an expansion strategy, with our without money. It is sporadic and opportunistic, which is fine on its own, but it is rather reliant on others. I do think though that one of the problems with Toronto is that if we had sat down 5 years ago and wrote a well-funded expansion strategy for the RFL/SLE to embark on, Toronto and Ottawa wouldn't have been anywhere near the list. 

I am more frustrated that we don't have effective plans to expand further around the UK and France than not funding TWP. 

I wouldn't be surprised if Argyle has invested £15m - and what is the legacy if TWP go belly up now?

I think the area SLE could have been more proactive would have been around logistical support rather than funding. But we shouldn't be embarrasses about making demands of rich people who want to create a team and join SL. 

There was a clear difference between how we admitted Catalans vs how we admitted TWP, and the reason for that is one was targeted expansion, the other was opportunistic and driven by a rich bloke who fancied setting up a team. 

Your last few posts have made a lot of sense.  I think the big one is the RFL and SL don't actually have an expansion strategy or any sort of strategy for that matter.

It appears to me to be a case of everyone for themselves which is a terrible way to grow a sport.  

As for the sum David Argyle has personally invested in TWP, it's rumored to be £20 million of his own money.  

My personal opinion is teams like Toulouse, Catalans, TWP should be in Super League under a licensing agreement.  They add value to Super League financially.  The GTA has almost as many people as the entire M62 corridor and if you throw in the Ottawa franchise, that's two franchises covering a population that is larger than the entire M62, for two clubs!

If British teams want to keep promotion and relegation amongst themselves, that's fine but you can't run franchised international sports clubs in a National League and expect them to be successful with promotion and relegation.

It's also fine if you don't want that.  Like 40/20 podcast said, there is nothing wrong with being a small geographically isolated sport but you'll also need to be prepared for TV money drying up and the sport eventually becoming a part time venture.

 

[Dave T]

1 minute ago, CanadianRugger said:

Your last few posts have made a lot of sense.  I think the big one is the RFL and SL don't actually have an expansion strategy or any sort of strategy for that matter.

It appears to me to be a case of everyone for themselves which is a terrible way to grow a sport.  

As for the sum David Argyle has personally invested in TWP, it's rumored to be £20 million of his own money.  

1. My personal opinion is teams like Toulouse, Catalans, TWP should be in Super League under a licensing agreement.  They add value to Super League financially.  The GTA has almost as many people as the entire M62 corridor and if you throw in the Ottawa franchise, that's two franchises covering a population that is larger than the entire M62, for two clubs!

If British teams want to keep promotion and relegation amongst themselves, that's fine but you can't run franchised international sports clubs in a National League and expect them to be successful with promotion and relegation.

2. It's also fine if you don't want that.  Like 40/20 podcast said, there is nothing wrong with being a small geographically isolated sport but you'll also need to be prepared for TV money drying up and the sport eventually becoming a part time venture.

 

I don't disagree with too much there, but want to just make a point on 2 of your statements, which may explain why some people are not necessarily bought into expansion as much as some of:

1. You say they add to SL financially but this has never been proven. The money is still coming in from the UK contract that covers the UK teams. 

2. The TV money has been increasing each time, despite regularly being told that we are dying, or will die soon and we must expand or die. 

I am on board every day of the week with expansion, as an RL fan living in Edinburgh I would be delighted if it was played near me, but I find it easy to see why some people don't see the world as 'expand or die'. There is also the fact that there is still a lot of expansion to do in the North of England.

I am an expansionist by nature, but many are not and they need to be convinced, all they have seen so far is failure after failure of moving into new territories. Genuinely intelligent people I know, successful business people disagree with me on RL expansion, so far they are winning the debate.

[CanadianRugger]

1 minute ago, Dave T said:

I don't disagree with too much there, but want to just make a point on 2 of your statements, which may explain why some people are not necessarily bought into expansion as much as some of:

1. You say they add to SL financially but this has never been proven. The money is still coming in from the UK contract that covers the UK teams. 

2. The TV money has been increasing each time, despite regularly being told that we are dying, or will die soon and we must expand or die. 

I am on board every day of the week with expansion, as an RL fan living in Edinburgh I would be delighted if it was played near me, but I find it easy to see why some people don't see the world as 'expand or die'. There is also the fact that there is still a lot of expansion to do in the North of England.

I am an expansionist by nature, but many are not and they need to be convinced, all they have seen so far is failure after failure of moving into new territories. Genuinely intelligent people I know, successful business people disagree with me on RL expansion, so far they are winning the debate.

Well we also know that TWP couldn't secure a TV deal this year because SKY had sold the rights to SL to Sportsnet here for pennies.

The money from media distribution won't be realized until the next TV contract is renegotiated.  

TV money is all about eyeballs, which is why the RL contract atm is so small.  

It's the same in France, Perpignan is not a big city but you throw a Toulouse in there and possibly a couple of other sides and all of a sudden the TV companies become more interested.

As I said, if RL wants to remain a geographically isolated sport in Northern England, nothing wrong with that but that's what it will be.  

[Damien]

37 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I think there is something in using games, rather then necessarily cold hard cash to assist with expansion. Not unlike the fact that in next year's World Cup we now have 5 internationals, including the opener, plus Magic Weekend being played in the North East that can support the development that is ongoing there. I was a big fan of the 'On the Road' games that we did for a year before sacking off due to lack of patience and the results not being immediate.

I think we should be doing more in London, we should always have a decent presence, maybe Magic, Challenge Cup and an International - giving a regular program of games that can be pushed to new fans in the capital every year without fail. It is all too sporadic at the moment.

We also could have done this in Canada in advance of TWP's SL entry - we could have staged a SL game or two, maybe an England game.

But ultimately the problem is that we don't have an expansion strategy, with our without money. It is sporadic and opportunistic, which is fine on its own, but it is rather reliant on others. I do think though that one of the problems with Toronto is that if we had sat down 5 years ago and wrote a well-funded expansion strategy for the RFL/SLE to embark on, Toronto and Ottawa wouldn't have been anywhere near the list. 

I am more frustrated that we don't have effective plans to expand further around the UK and France than not funding TWP. 

I wouldn't be surprised if Argyle has invested £15m - and what is the legacy if TWP go belly up now?

I think the area SLE could have been more proactive would have been around logistical support rather than funding. But we shouldn't be embarrasses about making demands of rich people who want to create a team and join SL. 

There was a clear difference between how we admitted Catalans vs how we admitted TWP, and the reason for that is one was targeted expansion, the other was opportunistic and driven by a rich bloke who fancied setting up a team. 

I agree with the gist of much of what you say Dave but would like to just pick out this point as for me its key. SL has no money to do expansion or certainly the type of expansion it needs. It doesn't even really do expansion full stop. Therefore in the absence of a strategy, plan or money I feel like beggars cant be choosers. If something good comes along, and Toronto has been, then I feel we have to roll with it. It is not like they are at the expense of other expansion efforts.

As such I hope this episode makes SL clubs realise what a gift horse they have been presented with to date. They really don't need to concede that much to make this work. If Argyle has invested £18 million, as he says, that is an investment that I haven't seen in British RL, certainly in such a short time frame. Opportunities like this obviously do not come by too often and frankly we may never see it again if Toronto go. However if they stay we may see more of the same, as Ottawa and maybe New York show.

[Big Picture]

5 minutes ago, CanadianRugger said:

Well we also know that TWP couldn't secure a TV deal this year because SKY had sold the rights to SL to Sportsnet here for pennies.

The money from media distribution won't be realized until the next TV contract is renegotiated.  

TV money is all about eyeballs, which is why the RL contract atm is so small.  

It's the same in France, Perpignan is not a big city but you throw a Toulouse in there and possibly a couple of other sides and all of a sudden the TV companies become more interested.

As I said, if RL wants to remain a geographically isolated sport in Northern England, nothing wrong with that but that's what it will be.  

Another limiting factor in the case of France is in addition to the sole French team in SL being in a small town, it also has a non-French identity.  That surely limits its appeal to French TV audiences.

[Lowdesert]

6 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

Another limiting factor in the case of France is in addition to the sole French team in SL being in a small town, it also has a non-French identity.  That surely limits its appeal to French TV audiences.

Non French identity?

[Dave T]

13 minutes ago, Damien said:

I agree with the gist of much of what you say Dave but would like to just pick out this point as for me its key. SL has no money to do expansion or certainly the type of expansion it needs. It doesn't even really do expansion full stop. Therefore in the absence of a strategy, plan or money I feel like beggars cant be choosers. If something good comes along, and Toronto has been, then I feel we have to roll with it. It is not like they are at the expense of other expansion efforts.

As such I hope this episode makes SL clubs realise what a gift horse they have been presented with to date. They really don't need to concede that much to make this work. If Argyle has invested £18 million, as he says, that is an investment that I haven't seen in British RL, certainly in such a short time frame. Opportunities like this obviously do not come by too often and frankly we may never see it again if Toronto go. However if they stay we may see more of the same, as Ottawa and maybe New York show.

I agree, and that's why we admitted TWP. But if we spend £10m over 5 years on Canada, what is the likely return?  Or £20m over 10 years? 

Argyle was funding his own club, Covid has been the killer here. 

[Damien]

2 minutes ago, Lowdesert said:

Non French identity?

I suppose the Catalan roots they play on. Its a strong selling point for them but also a negative for French RL generally.

[CanadianRugger]

3 minutes ago, Lowdesert said:

Non French identity?

Perpignan is Catalan, not French.  

[Big Picture]

5 minutes ago, Lowdesert said:

Non French identity?

As @CanadianRugger points out their identity is Catalan, not French as this big sign at the Stade Gilbert-Brutus illustrates:

 

[CanadianRugger]

6 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

As @CanadianRugger points out their identity is Catalan, not French as this big sign at the Stade Gilbert-Brutus illustrates:

 

Calling them French is like calling a Scot or Welsh person English. 

[ATLANTISMAN]

8 minutes ago, CanadianRugger said:

Perpignan is Catalan, not French.  

Catalan flags everywhere at Dragons home matches as for integration with CATALONIA (Spain) in a new state they would run a mile the whole region is reliant on hand outs from Paris.

 

* Average wage (If you can get a job) in Perpignan is double that of across the border

 

I have lived/live 40/50% of the year on both sides of the border until 2008 St Cyprien now Peralada also the price differences 

* Cafe Latte Perpignan 3 euros Spanish Catalonia 1.50 euros 

* Beer Perpignan 3 euros Spanish Catalonia 1.50 euros 

* Diesel driving here from England last week France 1.50./1.60 litre Spanish Catalonia 85 cents in the local supermarket 

 

Also most French dislike the Catalan French (Including most in FRL) even though they will come to matches.

 

The list goes on:)

 

Paul

[Damien]

2 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I agree, and that's why we admitted TWP. But if we spend £10m over 5 years on Canada, what is the likely return?  Or £20m over 10 years? 

Argyle was funding his own club, Covid has been the killer here. 

I think the likely return will be more. It is certainly a speculate to accumulate scenario and there is perhaps a lot of stuff you cant really quantify.

We don't know what could have happened this year but from what I saw in the Championship it boded well. Until the TV rights situation is sorted out in North America with Sky and the rights we don't really know the potential from that. We did see a lot of extra column inches from them especially with the signing from SBW and some very innovative ideas and sponsorships. Things like the Aussies supposedly playing a game in Canada etc too would have been very interesting. I certainly agree that Covid has been the killer, and I've said it from the start of this news till I'm blue in the face, but its happened.

We need to now work out the best way to manage this going forward for the good of the game. I think there is certainly a better way than what we have done so far.

I certainly think the return will be more than we will see from every club just getting another extra £130k.

[ravens88]

1 hour ago, Dave T said:

I don't disagree with too much there, but want to just make a point on 2 of your statements, which may explain why some people are not necessarily bought into expansion as much as some of:

1. You say they add to SL financially but this has never been proven. The money is still coming in from the UK contract that covers the UK teams. 

2. The TV money has been increasing each time, despite regularly being told that we are dying, or will die soon and we must expand or die. 

I am on board every day of the week with expansion, as an RL fan living in Edinburgh I would be delighted if it was played near me, but I find it easy to see why some people don't see the world as 'expand or die'. There is also the fact that there is still a lot of expansion to do in the North of England.

I am an expansionist by nature, but many are not and they need to be convinced, all they have seen so far is failure after failure of moving into new territories. Genuinely intelligent people I know, successful business people disagree with me on RL expansion, so far they are winning the debate.

It's a case to quote the GREAT Ben Shapiro: "Facts dont' care about your Feelings"

RL is essentially making it self irrelevant by not doing anything to expand seriously - failures of TWP, Crusaders, PSG etc are a damning indictment of the sport 

I've got no interest in RL if it's just a M62 membership No good in being a big fish in a tiny puddle

[Lowdesert]

50 minutes ago, Damien said:

I suppose the Catalan roots they play on. Its a strong selling point for them but also a negative for French RL generally.

Definitely a Catalan identity but they are ruled by France, under a French control altogether and their players, play for France.  The majority are French with very few, percentage wise, true Catalans going to the game.

 

[Lowdesert]

53 minutes ago, CanadianRugger said:

Perpignan is Catalan, not French.  

Perpignan is in France.  As already said, very few true Catalans.  I thought they would swing towards totally supporting the Spanish at one stage but it never happened.  Probably too reliant on French benefits.

Certainly agree in the Catalan identity as the Region covered a massive amount of Spain and France are one stage.

 

[Gooleboy]

6 minutes ago, ravens88 said:

It's a case to quote the GREAT Ben Shapiro: "Facts dont' care about your Feelings"

RL is essentially making it self irrelevant by not doing anything to expand seriously - failures of TWP, Crusaders, PSG etc are a damning indictment of the sport 

I've got no interest in RL if it's just a M62 membership No good in being a big fish in a tiny puddle

The people running these Clubs have to take some of the responsibility not just the Governing Body. The Paris experiment was just to keep Sky happy with the brave new world, and the Crusaders was a total mess, with players here on Student Visas, along with moving to Wrexham from the South.

[Damien]

5 minutes ago, Lowdesert said:

Definitely a Catalan identity but they are ruled by France, under a French control altogether and their players, play for France.  The majority are French with very few, percentage wise, true Catalans going to the game.

 

The point is is that attractive to the rest of France or does it just confirm perceptions of it being a provincial game played by a few people in the Catalan region. When Catalans are the only French Super League club and are playing heavily on that identity it is a problem in my opinion. Put Toulouse in there too and there is no problem and we have a great rivalry. 

[Scubby]

1 hour ago, Dave T said:

I agree, and that's why we admitted TWP. But if we spend £10m over 5 years on Canada, what is the likely return?  Or £20m over 10 years? 

Argyle was funding his own club, Covid has been the killer here. 

 

[Dave T]

48 minutes ago, Damien said:

I think the likely return will be more. It is certainly a speculate to accumulate scenario and there is perhaps a lot of stuff you cant really quantify.

We don't know what could have happened this year but from what I saw in the Championship it boded well. Until the TV rights situation is sorted out in North America with Sky and the rights we don't really know the potential from that. We did see a lot of extra column inches from them especially with the signing from SBW and some very innovative ideas and sponsorships. Things like the Aussies supposedly playing a game in Canada etc too would have been very interesting. I certainly agree that Covid has been the killer, and I've said it from the start of this news till I'm blue in the face, but its happened.

We need to now work out the best way to manage this going forward for the good of the game. I think there is certainly a better way than what we have done so far.

I certainly think the return will be more than we will see from every club just getting another extra £130k.

I'm not convinced the returns would be that great for a long time. But that wouldn't put me off carrying on with it. As long as we go into these things with open eyes and realistic expectations. 

If these things can be self funding and the game 'pays' by being accommodating with expansion slots and concessions then I think we have little to lose. When we start talking about investing millions, it becomes a tougher conversation. 

We should remember, David Argyle and Leighton Samuels and the like don't do this for expansion purposes, they are like all other owners who do it as a play thing, for ego, or because they are lifelong fans of their club. We shouldn't be shy insisting they fund their own plaything. 

What we should be doing is capitalising on this, we should have and international commercial arm, and an expansion development board to put down the roots under this top-down expansion. Then if any of these guys walk away we have done some groundwork and the whole thing isn't wasted. 

[Dave T]

3 minutes ago, Scubby said:

 

Yes, my wording was clumsy and unintentionally blunt. 

[Big Picture]

1 minute ago, Dave T said:

I'm not convinced the returns would be that great for a long time. But that wouldn't put me off carrying on with it. As long as we go into these things with open eyes and realistic expectations. 

If these things can be self funding and the game 'pays' by being accommodating with expansion slots and concessions then I think we have little to lose. When we start talking about investing millions, it becomes a tougher conversation. 

We should remember, David Argyle and Leighton Samuels and the like don't do this for expansion purposes, they are like all other owners who do it as a play thing, for ego, or because they are lifelong fans of their club. We shouldn't be shy insisting they fund their own plaything. 

What we should be doing is capitalising on this, we should have and international commercial arm, and an expansion development board to put down the roots under this top-down expansion. Then if any of these guys walk away we have done some groundwork and the whole thing isn't wasted. 

What exactly was the groundwork done in Paris et al and what has come from it?

[Dave T]

9 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

What exactly was the groundwork done in Paris et al and what has come from it?

Why are you asking me? 

[CanadianRugger]

31 minutes ago, Lowdesert said:

Perpignan is in France.  As already said, very few true Catalans.  I thought they would swing towards totally supporting the Spanish at one stage but it never happened.  Probably too reliant on French benefits.

Certainly agree in the Catalan identity as the Region covered a massive amount of Spain and France are one stage.

 

And Scotland is in the United Kingdom but you don't see many English calling the Scots, English

As someone who is part Acadienne, the cultural ignorance on this forum amazes me