The General 'Toronto Wolfpack' Discussion Thread

[Blind side johnny]

48 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Was it? I don't know and I would suggest neither do you for certain Loup, speculate and hope that it was the case, but the bottom line is if the SL clubs said in unison "we are not coming unless Toronto pay for the Travel and Hotels" Toronto's only option to not paying is to wrap the club up.

But, if Toronto had a cast iron case to deny SL clubs of those payments I am sure we would have heard and read all about it. 

IIRC Toronto were never guaranteed to be promoted to SL even if they won the Championship. There would be/was a separate negotiation to decide upon the conditions of their entry if it was permitted. SL had them over a barrel and these things aren't quickly forgotten.

[Damien]

3 minutes ago, Blind side johnny said:

IIRC Toronto were never guaranteed to be promoted to SL even if they won the Championship. There would be/was a separate negotiation to decide upon the conditions of their entry if it was permitted. SL had them over a barrel and these things aren't quickly forgotten.

Indeed. Basically Toronto had to agree to Super League's demands or not be in Super League. Whilst Super League clubs are obviously within their rights to do that under the current structure it doesnt mean it is the best way forward. It should be in their interests to facilitate it working too.

[SteveB.]

3 minutes ago, Blind side johnny said:

IIRC Toronto were never guaranteed to be promoted to SL even if they won the Championship. There would be/was a separate negotiation to decide upon the conditions of their entry if it was permitted. SL had them over a barrel and these things aren't quickly forgotten.

One aspect of TW is how they managed to gain entry into SL with a 'stadium' whose spectator facilities consists of two concrete terraces, both without any cover. I'm not sure the exact stadium requirements for SL, but I find it difficult to believe that the Lamport Stadium meets them. For example, some covered accommodation must be a prerequisite.

[Tommygilf]

23 minutes ago, SteveB. said:

One aspect of TW is how they managed to gain entry into SL with a 'stadium' whose spectator facilities consists of two concrete terraces, both without any cover. I'm not sure the exact stadium requirements for SL, but I find it difficult to believe that the Lamport Stadium meets them. For example, some covered accommodation must be a prerequisite.

May I take you on a tour of Belle Vue (a deeply ironic name if you know French) or Wheldon Road?

[ChoboMog]

12 hours ago, POR said:

question for our canadian friends one of the reasons given for dropping out is the lack of home games we all know SL is going to play behind closed doors with no money coming in

would that be different in canada would you be allowed crowds  in lamport similar to the alleged 4999 for catalan games in the Stade Gilbert Brutus

It's important to note the other reasons stated, and the context of restrictions placed on the Toronto Wolfpack to date, all of which combined to create and exacerbate the current situation:

1. No central funding, thanks to Sky Sports TV money, which remains available to all other SL clubs despite games being played behind closed doors;
2. No ability to generate TV revenue from negotiating Canada/U.S. broadcast rights as Sky Sports had already sold these on, for a pittance, years ago;
3. No government support and no ability to furlough due to the combined Canada-U.K. existence of the of the club making them eligible for assistance in neither country;
4. U.K. work-visa limitations making several top players ineligible to remain in the U.K., for the restarted season, and likely making the team uncompetitive (I am not familiar with all the details, on this one, but i know it was an issue at least as recently as last week); and, finally,
5. No revenue from tickets sold.

The other teams in Super League were only affected by point #5, leaving them much better positioned to survive the Covid-19 crisis which we still find ourselves in.  That's not so say it's easy for the other SL teams; but it does explain the unique set of circumstances the Toronto Wolfpack has been facing, this year.

I will remain hopeful that cooler heads will prevail, that funding will be found (whether from new investors or through the fan-owned, non-profit organization model being mused), and that the Toronto Wolfpack will live on to play another day.  Fingers crossed.

[wiganermike]

2 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

 

The full vodcast from which that short excerpt is taken is available on the Sky Sports RL website if anyone hasn't seen it. They discuss Ottawa and their plans for 2021 and beyond as well as the TWP situation.

[TIWIT]

14 minutes ago, ChoboMog said:

It's important to note the other reasons stated, and the context of restrictions placed on the Toronto Wolfpack to date, all of which combined to create and exacerbate the current situation:

1. No central funding, thanks to Sky Sports TV money, which remains available to all other SL clubs despite games being played behind closed doors;
2. No ability to generate TV revenue from negotiating Canada/U.S. broadcast rights as Sky Sports had already sold these on, for a pittance, years ago;
3. No government support and no ability to furlough due to the combined Canada-U.K. existence of the of the club making them eligible for assistance in neither country;
4. U.K. work-visa limitations making several top players ineligible to remain in the U.K., for the restarted season, and likely making the team uncompetitive (I am not familiar with all the details, on this one, but i know it was an issue at least as recently as last week); and, finally,
5. No revenue from tickets sold.

The other teams in Super League were only affected by point #5, leaving them much better positioned to survive the Covid-19 crisis which we still find ourselves in.  That's not so say it's easy for the other SL teams; but it does explain the unique set of circumstances the Toronto Wolfpack has been facing, this year.

I will remain hopeful that cooler heads will prevail, that funding will be found (whether from new investors or through the fan-owned, non-profit organization model being mused), and that the Toronto Wolfpack will live on to play another day.  Fingers crossed.

Stop confusing the issue with facts. 

[Man of Kent]

51 minutes ago, SteveB. said:

One aspect of TW is how they managed to gain entry into SL with a 'stadium' whose spectator facilities consists of two concrete terraces, both without any cover. I'm not sure the exact stadium requirements for SL, but I find it difficult to believe that the Lamport Stadium meets them. For example, some covered accommodation must be a prerequisite.

Immaterial for the hot Toronto summers, really. That’s the least of their worries.

Minimum standards for Toronto are paying their players and bothering to turn up for games!

[ojx]

27 minutes ago, ChoboMog said:

 

1. No central funding, thanks to Sky Sports TV money, which remains available to all other SL clubs despite games being played behind closed doors;
2. No ability to generate TV revenue from negotiating Canada/U.S. broadcast rights as Sky Sports had already sold these on, for a pittance, years ago;
3. No government support and no ability to furlough due to the combined Canada-U.K. existence of the of the club making them eligible for assistance in neither country;
4. U.K. work-visa limitations making several top players ineligible to remain in the U.K., for the restarted season, and likely making the team uncompetitive (I am not familiar with all the details, on this one, but i know it was an issue at least as recently as last week); and, finally,
5. No revenue from tickets sold.

No SL team would survive these circumstances. If they had they been open and honest about their predicament earlier, they may have gotten some good will from SL chairmen.

However, Toronto committed to the restarted competition, and then withdrew. During that time, they hadn't paid player wages. The visa issues should have been no surprise, and should have been anticipated since the lockdown began. Only a couple of days before the announcement, SL prepared their restart promotional video including TWP and SBW. Then, out of the blue they withdraw. I expect good will is in short supply amongst the SL board.

[DEANO]

1 hour ago, SteveB. said:

One aspect of TW is how they managed to gain entry into SL with a 'stadium' whose spectator facilities consists of two concrete terraces, both without any cover. I'm not sure the exact stadium requirements for SL, but I find it difficult to believe that the Lamport Stadium meets them. For example, some covered accommodation must be a prerequisite.

Lol have you seen the state of some of the current grounds

[stevevalerugby]

On 23/07/2020 at 07:58, Whippet13 said:

John Wilkin's take on things: https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/rugby-league/jon-wilkin-life-toronto-wolfpack-22396719

yes but if yo look at what the NRL potential TV contract is compared to Superleague you can see why the NRL can put their arm around the NZ warriors

NRL close to finalising $2.3 billion broadcast deal 

SuperLeagues last TV deal was for £200 million

there is a vast difference in funding

 

 

[briggyq]

18 minutes ago, stevevalerugby said:

yes but if yo look at what the NRL potential TV contract is compared to Superleague you can see why the NRL can put their arm around the NZ warriors

NRL close to finalising $2.3 billion broadcast deal 

SuperLeagues last TV deal was for £200 million

there is a vast difference in funding

 

 

And could afford too..much easier to take the long view when your dealing in billions of dollars.

[Loup]

Super League have created quite the dilemma for themselves, haven't they. If Wolfpack are kicked out of Super League for 2021, then SL have to admit another club. Unless they are the Pylons of Pyonggang, the money will have to be equally shared 12 ways and the 11 skinflints stand to lose quite a bit of ready cash.

[TIWIT]

28 minutes ago, Loup said:

Super League have created quite the dilemma for themselves, haven't they. If Wolfpack are kicked out of Super League for 2021, then SL have to admit another club. Unless they are the Pylons of Pyonggang, the money will have to be equally shared 12 ways and the 11 skinflints stand to lose quite a bit of ready cash.

And if TWP continue in the Championship or League 1 they will undoubtedly trample their competition there and in another year or two SL will be facing the same dilemma: what do we do with a problem like the Wolfpack?

[Whippet13]

37 minutes ago, Loup said:

Super League have created quite the dilemma for themselves, haven't they. If Wolfpack are kicked out of Super League for 2021, then SL have to admit another club. Unless they are the Pylons of Pyonggang, the money will have to be equally shared 12 ways and the 11 skinflints stand to lose quite a bit of ready cash.

This is something I've been mulling over for quite a while, if they boot out Toronto and put another club in SL then the other 11 sides will each have to give up £200k each next season when their backs are already against the wall financially.

The big and secure clubs can probably afford that, but they seem to be generally sympathetic to Toronto. Can the smaller ones afford it? The smaller clubs are also wary of relegation in 2021, with the very real prospect of franchises after that. Toronto are inevitably going to be a bottom 6 club if in SL for 2021, so is it in the interest of the smaller clubs to have them as potential relegation fodder? SL clubs will naturally think strategically about their own self interest, right or wrong, that's how they survive.

Personally I think it's all on a knife edge, could go either way.

[Gooleboy]

39 minutes ago, TIWIT said:

And if TWP continue in the Championship or League 1 they will undoubtedly trample their competition there and in another year or two SL will be facing the same dilemma: what do we do with a problem like the Wolfpack?

There's a song in there somewhere!

[ojx]

8 minutes ago, Whippet13 said:

This is something I've been mulling over for quite a while, if they boot out Toronto and put another club in SL then the other 11 sides will each have to give up £200k each next season when their backs are already against the wall financially.

Word is that SL chairmen are happy to go with 11 teams in 2021, rather than share their cash with anyone else.

[Gooleboy]

12 minutes ago, ojx said:

Word is that SL chairmen are happy to go with 11 teams in 2021, rather than share their cash with anyone else.

No surprise if that is true.

[Whippet13]

3 minutes ago, ojx said:

Word is that SL chairmen are happy to go with 11 teams in 2021, rather than share their cash with anyone else.

Fair enough if so, cash in the bank today I guess. Not sure what Sky will think of a shrinking league with the TV deal coming up, but survival in 20/21 is the name of the game and I completely understand that with clubs on the breadline.

I think 11 teams taking the cash 2 years in a row does make a 10 team 2021 franchise more likely though, which I previously never thought would happen and is a regressive step in my view for multiple reasons.

[Loup]

https://www.skysports.com/watch/video/sports/rugby-league/12035692/gp-vodcast-perez-positive-on-rl-in-canada

Eric Perez explains in some detail the original central funding agreement and says it's in the contract. No CF for 3 years but then it would be revisited. Which hasn't happened.

[Big Picture]

24 minutes ago, Loup said:

https://www.skysports.com/watch/video/sports/rugby-league/12035692/gp-vodcast-perez-positive-on-rl-in-canada

Eric Perez explains in some detail the original central funding agreement and says it's in the contract. No CF for 3 years but then it would be revisited. Which hasn't happened.

Even if is it had, the likes of Hull KR chairman Neil Hudgell are determined not to allow Toronto to any of the central funding.

[Man of Kent]

4 hours ago, Loup said:

https://www.skysports.com/watch/video/sports/rugby-league/12035692/gp-vodcast-perez-positive-on-rl-in-canada

Eric Perez explains in some detail the original central funding agreement and says it's in the contract. No CF for 3 years but then it would be revisited. Which hasn't happened.

Fascinating interview.

We’ve now heard it from the RFL, Eric Perez and Super League sources that Toronto agreed to forego central funding so we can put that one to bed. It’s in the contract.

A review of Toronto would surely be unfavourable given their untrustworthy track record. You get the sense from Jon Wells - a convivial, even-tempered bloke - that the other SL clubs are seething. A full share of funding seems very unlikely.

What was interesting to me was the suggestion by Perez that David Argyle knows he needs to leave. Maybe Perez himself will try to rescue it?

[Dave T]

4 hours ago, Loup said:

https://www.skysports.com/watch/video/sports/rugby-league/12035692/gp-vodcast-perez-positive-on-rl-in-canada

Eric Perez explains in some detail the original central funding agreement and says it's in the contract. No CF for 3 years but then it would be revisited. Which hasn't happened.

Of course it has been revisited. That's what the whole discussion was about last year. 

Revisited just means discussed again, but it is good you finally put the myth to bed that they had agreed to receive funding in SL. 

[Hela Wigmen]

8 hours ago, ojx said:

Word is that SL chairmen are happy to go with 11 teams in 2021, rather than share their cash with anyone else.

Who has allegedly said this? 

[Dave T]

4 hours ago, Big Picture said:

Even if is it had, the likes of Hull KR chairman Neil Hudgell are determined not to allow Toronto to any of the central funding.

Whatever people think of Hudgell, he is entitled to hold a view that he does of TWP. But he holds one vote.