The General 'Toronto Wolfpack' Discussion Thread

[DoubleD]

Let’s hope MLSE group take them over. 

Its clear this pandemic has exposed Argyle, who’s clearly asset rich but cash poor, as a lot of rich people often are. Freeing up vast numbers of assets to continually pay his financial commitments in the current climate isn’t easy. However, I don’t see the Sky money making a material difference to this. Perhaps it’s just a ploy by Argyle to get an equal seat at the table which would be fair enough. Either way, I think it’s perhaps in everyone’s best interest if someone like MLSE take over, and bring some professionalism 

[Tex Evans Thigh]

56 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

Elsewhere in LE, Gary Hetherington calls for an appointed group of SL & RFL officials - not the clubs - to choose the 12th club for 2021 based on “finance, stadium, crowd and commercial potential and player production” with the one deemed to be of most value given an equal distribution of central funding.

I'm a Fev fan, but objectively you would think that in that scenario it would be Toulouse. If this scenario does play out then it will definitely cause more consternation amongst the clubs not chosen. If they are going to admit another team for 2021, then make the mini-tournament at the end of the season be the way it's decided. Fev, Leigh, London, Toulouse, York....whoever in a 6 team mini league, no one is in a position to complain about bentness, favouritism etc that way.

I also find it pathetically short sighted, and greedy for SL to go ahead with 11 teams in 2021. They need  an even number, even if it mean Toronto come back.

[Tommygilf]

1 minute ago, Tex Evans Thigh said:

I'm a Fev fan, but objectively you would think that in that scenario it would be Toulouse. If this scenario does play out then it will definitely cause more consternation amongst the clubs not chosen. If they are going to admit another team for 2021, then make the mini-tournament at the end of the season be the way it's decided. Fev, Leigh, London, Toulouse, York....whoever in a 6 team mini league, no one is in a position to complain about bentness, favouritism etc that way.

I also find it pathetically short sighted, and greedy for SL to go ahead with 11 teams in 2021. They need  an even number, even if it mean Toronto come back.

Top post mate

[Hela Wigmen]

I genuinely don’t think Super League wants an eleven team competition. You risk losing Magic Weekend for one and a side less alters TV obligations we’ll have. 

[Tex Evans Thigh]

1 minute ago, Hela Wigmen said:

I genuinely don’t think Super League wants an eleven team competition. You risk losing Magic Weekend for one and a side less alters TV obligations we’ll have. 

You would think that wouldnt you, but I bet there's at least 4 clubs who are desperate to retain the additional funding. If Toronto aren't coming back without a share then you have to believe their preference is for 11 teams. I agree with you though, that would be ridiculously short sighted.

As I said, as a Championship fan, I think the best option would be a mini-league with promotion the prize. It will create some good will, a feel good factor, legitimize the end of season tournament and build some bridges between the RFL and a growing number of disillusioned fans. Toronto deserve relegating, and I'm saying that as a fan of theirs, so there seems only one other solution that would keep most people happy. Letting an independent tribunal decide is fraught with problems. Who decides the criteria? Who picks the panel? It is destined to be too open to scrutiny and frankly too open to abuse. 

Given a few months prep, any of those Championship team could offer something to SL in 2021, 3 of them being a new face.

[wiganermike]

20 minutes ago, Tex Evans Thigh said:

I'm a Fev fan, but objectively you would think that in that scenario it would be Toulouse. If this scenario does play out then it will definitely cause more consternation amongst the clubs not chosen. If they are going to admit another team for 2021, then make the mini-tournament at the end of the season be the way it's decided. Fev, Leigh, London, Toulouse, York....whoever in a 6 team mini league, no one is in a position to complain about bentness, favouritism etc that way.

I also find it pathetically short sighted, and greedy for SL to go ahead with 11 teams in 2021. They need  an even number, even if it mean Toronto come back.

I think that the decision to continue with 11 for the resumed season is the sensible way to proceed given the circumstances. A month doesn't give enough time for a proper process to be followed to choose a replacement club from the possible options and that club would be left with too little time (and possibly money) to strengthen their squad to sufficient standard to compete. It has still not been established whether or not TWP will be competing in SL in 2021 so admitting a replacement could see the replacement club not finish bottom (TWP had lost all 6 but were only a couple of points behind 11th) and then lose their place as TWP were returning to SL.

Had TWP withdrawn in April/May and said they were folding then there may have been an opportunity to replace them but as it is there is too little time and uncertainty over TWP's future to do anything other than run with 11 teams. The 11 clubs don't gain anything from not having a 12th club for the rest of this year so I don't understand your claim of greed.

I don't think the plan is to go with 11 for 2021, whether it is TWP or any of the Championship clubs I am sure there will be 12 clubs in SL in 2021.

[LeytherRob]

2 hours ago, RigbyLuger said:

He'll have plenty blowing smoke up his backside, but it is completely embarrassing. If we want to look tinpot, he's doing a good job of it.

It's a bit cringe, even as a Leigh fan, but he's far from the only one despite the disproportionate attention he gets on here. During the initial BLM protests Andy Mazey spent several weeks calling for peaceful protesters to be used as target practice by the Army without any sense of irony.

[sweaty craiq]

36 minutes ago, Hela Wigmen said:

I think the having to pay for various home venues between now and April 2021 (at the earliest) was probably just as much of a factor. 

The Canadian winter is nothing new, and can't see grounds costing much if double headers over here. I always plan by knowing where I want to end up, then it's risks and opportunities that create the map of how to get there. SL never wanted TW imo, the bribe clinched it but they never had a plan

[sweaty craiq]

1 minute ago, LeytherRob said:

It's a bit cringe, even as a Leigh fan, but he's far from the only one despite the disproportionate attention he gets on here. During the initial BLM protests Andy Mazey spent several weeks calling for peaceful protesters to be used as target practice by the Army without any sense of irony.

Don't often agree with Andy .... peaceful my arriss

[LeytherRob]

1 minute ago, sweaty craiq said:

Don't often agree with Andy .... peaceful my arriss

i don't want to drag this off topic and risk the wrath of the admins, however the tweets in question were directly sharing videos of people standing around with placards and referring to the people in those videos, not when the violence was happening. 

[Tex Evans Thigh]

21 minutes ago, wiganermike said:

I think that the decision to continue with 11 for the resumed season is the sensible way to proceed given the circumstances. A month doesn't give enough time for a proper process to be followed to choose a replacement club from the possible options and that club would be left with too little time (and possibly money) to strengthen their squad to sufficient standard to compete. It has still not been established whether or not TWP will be competing in SL in 2021 so admitting a replacement could see the replacement club not finish bottom (TWP had lost all 6 but were only a couple of points behind 11th) and then lose their place as TWP were returning to SL.

Had TWP withdrawn in April/May and said they were folding then there may have been an opportunity to replace them but as it is there is too little time and uncertainty over TWP's future to do anything other than run with 11 teams. The 11 clubs don't gain anything from not having a 12th club for the rest of this year so I don't understand your claim of greed.

I don't think the plan is to go with 11 for 2021, whether it is TWP or any of the Championship clubs I am sure there will be 12 clubs in SL in 2021.

I didnt mention this season. Whatever they do this year is fine under the 'strange and unusual circumstances' clause, going with 11 is probably the sensible way to go now TWP have dropped out last minute.

My posts are entirely about how next season is structured, which if goes ahead with an 11 team SL would be incredibly self serving and, yes, greedy.

[frank]

Sl i s mainly to blame for the troubles at the Wolfpack.If they had got a share of funding these problems may never have eventuated.

Gates have been falling in the game for some years now and will continue to do so.These new clubs coming on the scene offer a chance to halt that process, if the powers that be can grasp that, but, I have my doubts.Too inward looking and that will be their downfall.

[RigbyLuger]

1 hour ago, LeytherRob said:

It's a bit cringe, even as a Leigh fan, but he's far from the only one despite the disproportionate attention he gets on here. During the initial BLM protests Andy Mazey spent several weeks calling for peaceful protesters to be used as target practice by the Army without any sense of irony.

And his comments on people on furlough having barbecues and drinking weren't clever either.

[wiganermike]

1 hour ago, Tex Evans Thigh said:

I didnt mention this season. Whatever they do this year is fine under the 'strange and unusual circumstances' clause, going with 11 is probably the sensible way to go now TWP have dropped out last minute.

My posts are entirely about how next season is structured, which if goes ahead with an 11 team SL would be incredibly self serving and, yes, greedy.

I don't think the plan is to go with 11 teams in 2021. I haven't seen anything from the RFL or SL suggesting that they are considering it. SL and the RFL are committed to having the Magic Weekend and that doesn't work with an odd number of teams. If it was to be suggested by any of the clubs that they wanted to operate an 11 team league in 2021 then I would agree with you that it would be for reasons of self interest and greed. That is why I think that Gary Hetherington's suggestion of an appointed panel of SL and RFL officials selecting a 12th club for 2021 (rather than the clubs making any decision) is a wise one.

[Tex Evans Thigh]

31 minutes ago, wiganermike said:

I don't think the plan is to go with 11 teams in 2021. I haven't seen anything from the RFL or SL suggesting that they are considering it. SL and the RFL are committed to having the Magic Weekend and that doesn't work with an odd number of teams. If it was to be suggested by any of the clubs that they wanted to operate an 11 team league in 2021 then I would agree with you that it would be for reasons of self interest and greed. That is why I think that Gary Hetherington's suggestion of an appointed panel of SL and RFL officials selecting a 12th club for 2021 (rather than the clubs making any decision) is a wise one.

Have I done something to you recently? 

So you apologise for misreading my previous post, thanks. Looks like we both agree that an 11 team SL2021 is a bad idea. What I dont agree on is an appointed panel to select the team for reasons I highlighted in the posts you obviously couldnt be bothered to read.

Who do you think will appoint this panel? The clubs maybe? The RFL? Dominic Cummings? Any outcome is bound to cause more division and more disillusion. The team that want a crack are ready to play, I think if you asked any of them they would be happy with a tournament to decide a team who gets promoted. Letting some 'independent' panel decide is basically the gateway drug to licensing and probably the disenfranchising of supporter of at least 6 clubs. 

It's the age old argument of on-field vs off-field, but even then I dont think there is much between the teams. All have flaws and positives so let them fight it out on the pitch.

[dkw]

Moron in drunken social media embarrassment, did he offer to fight anyone this time? 

[Dave T]

I think we need 12 teams next year under any circumstances. 

I'm not a fan of free weekends and Magic Weekend needs an even number. 

The starting point should be are TWP still in. They need to prove they can finance the team next year, its positive that SLE are already asking for their budgets. It's less positive that Hunter doesn't have an answer to that, suggesting that a quick decision to allow TWP can't be made. 

As for a championship club, Toulouse would be my personal preference if you were hand picking, but I dont have much of an issue with any of the others, maybe financial strength is the key factor to ensure they can make the best job of navigating this period. 

On central funding, I think there is a case for conditional funding of TWP if they can sort other funding. Even if it is 50% funding next year up to 75% and then 100% etc. and conditions around player development could apply. 

[JohnM]

My interpretation: if the sport really wanted Toronto to succeed, they'd have found a way (similar to, for example, the slack cut for Bradford over the years). Overall, it seems the game does not want Toronto. 

[Harry Stottle]

6 hours ago, Tex Evans Thigh said:

Have I done something to you recently? 

So you apologise for misreading my previous post, thanks. Looks like we both agree that an 11 team SL2021 is a bad idea. What I dont agree on is an appointed panel to select the team for reasons I highlighted in the posts you obviously couldnt be bothered to read.

Who do you think will appoint this panel? The clubs maybe? The RFL? Dominic Cummings? Any outcome is bound to cause more division and more disillusion. The team that want a crack are ready to play, I think if you asked any of them they would be happy with a tournament to decide a team who gets promoted. Letting some 'independent' panel decide is basically the gateway drug to licensing and probably the disenfranchising of supporter of at least 6 clubs. 

It's the age old argument of on-field vs off-field, but even then I dont think there is much between the teams. All have flaws and positives so let them fight it out on the pitch.

Those who can remember will know that I was suggesting and quite loudly for a comp for those Championship clubs interested in playing on for promotion, the idea was ridiculed on these pages I said that clubs should be allowed to decide if it was their preference to play on or sit the season out without penalty, and that is now what the RL has done but for a prize that if dustributed evenly would hardly cover expenses.

BUT there has been one big change from my suggestion in that it involved Relegation for one club from SL for finishing bottom of the ladder, that is now not the case, unless it is considered TWP's expulsion from SL would be considered as relegation as opposed to a penalty.

FWIW, I totally agree with you re Mr Hetherington's suggestion of a selection panel, who would pick the panel, and if it was an appointmented panel of RFL and SL officials everyone of those people has an affiliation with some club which could sway their thinking, just as an *example I can think of, take Salford, Wigan, Saints or Wire, for nothing other than financial reasons who would be the best selection Leigh or Tolouse? Just through attdendances alone Leigh would put and did when in SL in '17 over £30K into the coffers of those clubs on match day through gate and food and drink sales, measure that against Toulouse's possible contribution of most probably not reaching 4 figures, also those clubs not having the extra expense of another trip to France, anyone who suggests away fans don't matter are deluded and especially in post covid financial considerations.

The best and fairest way is if a 12th team is required for SL 2021 is to decide on the field of play.

* Wakey and Cas would have the same respect for Fev over Toulouse, Catalan would prefer Toulouse which in all 3 cases it would be wrong.

[Damien]

3 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

FWIW, I totally agree with you re Mr Hetherington's suggestion of a selection panel, who would pick the panel, and if it was an appointmented panel of RFL and SL officials everyone of those people has an affiliation with some club which could sway their thinking, just as an *example I can think of, take Salford, Wigan, Saints or Wire, for nothing other than financial reasons who would be the best selection Leigh or Tolouse? Just through attdendances alone Leigh would put and did when in SL in '17 over £30K into the coffers of those clubs on match day through gate and food and drink sales, measure that against Toulouse's possible contribution of most probably not reaching 4 figures, also those clubs not having the extra expense of another trip to France, anyone who suggests away fans don't matter are deluded and especially in post covid financial considerations.

The best and fairest way is if a 12th team is required for SL 2021 is to decide on the field of play.

* Wakey and Cas would have the same respect for Fev over Toulouse, Catalan would prefer Toulouse which in all 3 cases it would be wrong.

If making a big decision on the best way forward comes down to a club getting another £30k then that really is as small time as you can get. 

[Harry Stottle]

9 minutes ago, Damien said:

If making a big decision on the best way forward comes down to a club getting another £30k then that really is as small time as you can get. 

I agree Damien, but your personal 'best way forward' may not be the thoughts of those who collect the money. 

So do you think I could be correct in my example, I know it would be very hard for you to agree but is it a feasible assumption to make?

[Harry Stottle]

11 minutes ago, Damien said:

If making a big decision on the best way forward comes down to a club getting another £30k then that really is as small time as you can get. 

Expanding that £30K+ over 27 games is a minimum of £800,000 lost to the game. 

[haskey]

How can we want or expect TWP to participate in 2021 without any players.? Toi me it is a non-starter

[The Rocket]

I saw that poll in League Express 54% of respondents said kick them out completely. I hope the RLF aren`t populists.

[Toby Chopra]

1 hour ago, Dave T said:

I think we need 12 teams next year under any circumstances. 

I'm not a fan of free weekends and Magic Weekend needs an even number. 

The starting point should be are TWP still in. They need to prove they can finance the team next year, its positive that SLE are already asking for their budgets. It's less positive that Hunter doesn't have an answer to that, suggesting that a quick decision to allow TWP can't be made. 

As for a championship club, Toulouse would be my personal preference if you were hand picking, but I dont have much of an issue with any of the others, maybe financial strength is the key factor to ensure they can make the best job of navigating this period. 

On central funding, I think there is a case for conditional funding of TWP if they can sort other funding. Even if it is 50% funding next year up to 75% and then 100% etc. and conditions around player development could apply. 

Player development will always be a red herring for Toronto. Financial strength - the ability to become a high salary top half SL club, which we need more of - was the real attraction. So it doesn't bode well if money is now the key issue for the club. I remain to be convinced they should get a distribution until they can prove that's what their level will be. We don't need another yo yo club. 

I also think they should have a points penalty if they are restored to SL. The pandemic is of course an exceptional time, but it's clear to me that TWP waited until the very last moment, when TV schedules were set, before trying to bounce the league into giving it more money. 

We've seen this sort of ransom behaviour before from other clubs and it has to stop, for the good of the sport in the future. It's an 'adminstration-equivalent' event for me, so that should be the starting point. There is exceptional room this year to reduce the penalty so a judgement can be made. 

If that means almost certain relegation, albeit with a year to plan for it, then that will test the stability and commitment of the club going forward.