The General 'Toronto Wolfpack' Discussion Thread

[DimmestStar]

7 minutes ago, The Rocket said:

I saw that poll in League Express 54% of respondents said kick them out completely. I hope the RLF aren`t populists.

Actually 75% do not want Toronto in Super League in 2021.

[wiganermike]

7 hours ago, Tex Evans Thigh said:

Have I done something to you recently? 

So you apologise for misreading my previous post, thanks. Looks like we both agree that an 11 team SL2021 is a bad idea. What I dont agree on is an appointed panel to select the team for reasons I highlighted in the posts you obviously couldnt be bothered to read.

Who do you think will appoint this panel? The clubs maybe? The RFL? Dominic Cummings? Any outcome is bound to cause more division and more disillusion. The team that want a crack are ready to play, I think if you asked any of them they would be happy with a tournament to decide a team who gets promoted. Letting some 'independent' panel decide is basically the gateway drug to licensing and probably the disenfranchising of supporter of at least 6 clubs. 

It's the age old argument of on-field vs off-field, but even then I dont think there is much between the teams. All have flaws and positives so let them fight it out on the pitch.

No, you haven't done anything to me. No need to take offence because we don't agree on something.

Rather than misreading your post I did wrongly assume that 2021 was a typing error on your part and that you meant 2020. This is because as I mentioned in my reply I have seen no suggestion from either the RFL or SL that an 11 team SL in 2021 is an option being considered. For the erroneous assumption on my part I apologise.

If an approach such as that proposed by Hetherington was taken then I would suggest part of the panel be selected by the RFL, part by the clubs to lessen the possibility of one side or the other filling it with people who would support their own aims alone. TWP would likely still be one of the clubs up for selection as the 12th club along with the Championship contenders unless it is declared ahead of the process that they are definitely out.

I don't know if you have seen many of my posts on the subject but I have suggested previously in a couple of threads (this one and the Championship/League 1 restart thread IIRC) that should the decision be to remove TWP from SL then the RFL could make the ultimate prize for the Autumn tournament a promotion place to take the place of Toronto. Unless it is first confirmed that TWP are out though such a possibility could not be enacted but I am not opposed to it. It would certainly be less contentious than a selection process but for as long as TWP being the 12th club remains a possibility such a tournament cannot happen.

[Dave T]

2 minutes ago, Toby Chopra said:

Player development will always be a red herring for Toronto. Financial strength - the ability to become a high salary top half SL club, which we need more of - was the real attraction. So it doesn't bode well if money is now the key issue for the club. I remain to be convinced they should get a distribution until they can prove that's what their level will be. We don't need another yo yo club. 

I also think they should have a points penalty if they are restored to SL. The pandemic is of course an exceptional time, but it's clear to me that TWP waited until the very last moment, when TV schedules were set, before trying to bounce the league into giving it more money. 

We've seen this sort of ransom behaviour before from other clubs and it has to stop, for the good of the sport in the future. It's an 'adminstration-equivalent' event for me, so that should be the starting point. There is exceptional room this year to reduce the penalty so a judgement can be made. 

If that means almost certain relegation, albeit with a year to plan for it, then that will test the stability and commitment of the club going forward. 

Yes, this is my frustration with the club.

They get plenty of sympathy over their situation with logistics and the coronavirus situation - I think they could have pulled out in advance of the launch announcement and retained good relationships, but the way they pulled out reflects very badly on them. To then think that puts them in a position to make demands on central funding is brazen.

Again, Hunter seems to get it that convincing SLE to give central funding was a project, and tbh a very good season this year and demonstrating value would have been the way to go about this, and I think he knows that. But even in advance of Coronavirus issues the signs weren't good with the battles around salary cap, not signing a full squad, staging these marquee games as a double header at Headingley and a damp squib of a game in Warrington was not the kind of glamour we were promised. 

But, as I've said before, these decisions need to be made with a clear head and grudges can't be held as it doesn't benefit anyone.

The challenge now is that in reality a decision should be made soon, and as Bob Hunter says himself, they have no financial plan, which basically leads you to only one possible conclusion.

[Chris Taylor]

He probably read his emails and saw that this Autumn comp was pointless when the winner would only get £35k.

[Blind side johnny]

Going back to basics and forgetting who said what to whom, I believe that a simple cost/benefit analysis would come down strongly against allowing Toronto to continue in any guise. All of the costs to the game and the participating clubs are tangible, the current benefits are decidedly intangible.

FWIW I say this as one who has supported the initiative since the beginning, but not blindly.

[Damien]

34 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

I agree Damien, but your personal 'best way forward' may not be the thoughts of those who collect the money. 

So do you think I could be correct in my example, I know it would be very hard for you to agree but is it a feasible assumption to make?

Oh I agree, many RL chairman have been shown to make decisions purely on the basis of the £ signs that they see. 

[TBone]

 How on earth was a club that loses significant amounts year on year ever hoing to be the RL saviour?  (£18m over 3.5 years on sky, £10m over the same period earlier in this thread). With a full share of the Sky money they’d still struggle so hardly the shining beacon that many believe.

This is what happens when there is 0 strategic planning and reliance on half-baked opportunist developments. There really does need to be an emergency top to bottom review of the state of the game and development of a strategic plan going forwards thay lays out clear strategic objecives, how they will be met, risks, issues and mitigations. Then if the strategy says development of clubs in North America, there should be a plan for supporting it rather than just make it up as you go!

[LeytherRob]

26 minutes ago, haskey said:

How can we want or expect TWP to participate in 2021 without any players.? Toi me it is a non-starter

I've been trying to say this to a few people, it would actually do them a favour to relegate them at this point as it would give them to option to completely clean the slate and build a proper squad capable of having 17 every week in SL. 

[Damien]

33 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Expanding that £30K+ over 27 games is a minimum of £800,000 lost to the game. 

I think your maths is way off and you are greatly overexaggerating. If it was Leigh as per your example they would be playing 14 away games and I don't think they would be putting an extra £30k into the coffers of every away club. Thursday/Friday matches in Yorkshire would see to that. I wouldn't be surprised if the amount lost to the game was far closer to something like £300,000 and that is presuming absolutely no away fans from a Toulouse. We can agree to disagree.

Anyway to take you point, which I do acknowledge to some extent, what about if Toulouse in Super League resulted in a French TV deal? A small deal of even £500,000 or £1 million a year would be worth more than the away fans from Leigh.

[Dave T]

7 minutes ago, TBone said:

 How on earth was a club that loses significant amounts year on year ever hoing to be the RL saviour?  (£18m over 3.5 years on sky, £10m over the same period earlier in this thread). With a full share of the Sky money they’d still struggle so hardly the shining beacon that many believe.

This is what happens when there is 0 strategic planning and reliance on half-baked opportunist developments. There really does need to be an emergency top to bottom review of the state of the game and development of a strategic plan going forwards thay lays out clear strategic objecives, how they will be met, risks, issues and mitigations. Then if the strategy says development of clubs in North America, there should be a plan for supporting it rather than just make it up as you go!

They were never positioned to be the games saviour, apart from by a few excitable people. 

But the lack of any strategic plan that outlines Canada as the place the game should be investing its money is the reason the game is not investing its money in Canada. 

This was opportunistic expansion, no more no less. 

[Chronicler of Chiswick]

11 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

Enter Toulouse or London...

The problem for London is stadium capacity and crowds, York would be interesting, but I don't know if they're ready yet. Can you imagine Beaumont's reaction if it isn't Leigh?

[DoubleD]

38 minutes ago, The Rocket said:

I saw that poll in League Express 54% of respondents said kick them out completely. I hope the RLF aren`t populists.

Is LE an accurate reflection of mainstream fans?

I'd be interested to see the demographic of its readers, as I don't know anyone of my age bracket or younger who reads it (ie. under 40)

[Tommygilf]

1 minute ago, Chronicler of Chiswick said:

The problem for London is stadium capacity and crowds, York would be interesting, but I don't know if they're ready yet. Can you imagine Beaumont's reaction if it isn't Leigh?

Yeah but they do have the strong academy as a plus point I think.

Lol toys and pram come to mind

[Harry Stottle]

17 minutes ago, Damien said:

I think your maths is way off and you are greatly overexaggerating. If it was Leigh as per your example they would be playing 14 away games and I don't think they would be putting an extra £30k into the coffers of every away club. Thursday/Friday matches in Yorkshire would see to that. I wouldn't be surprised if the amount lost to the game was far closer to something like £300,000 and that is presuming absolutely no away fans from a Toulouse. We can agree to disagree.

Anyway to take you point, which I do acknowledge to some extent, what about if Toulouse in Super League resulted in a French TV deal? A small deal of even £500,000 or £1 million a year would be worth more than the away fans from Leigh.

Yes you are correct, it is not 27 games it is 14, thanks for the correction.

But that money is still tangible and would be seen, the "what about if" in relation to a TV deal for Toulouse is again as with Toronto's expected TV deal pure speculation, it was not long ago the TWP army were saying how good it would be when they received the TV contract and SL could shove the funding where the sun doesn't shine, but they are still awaiting for that to happen, so again you are basing your hopes on something with Tolouse that may never happen, as you say it is just a "what if".

[wiganermike]

7 minutes ago, DoubleD said:

Is LE an accurate reflection of mainstream fans?

I'd be interested to see the demographic of its readers, as I don't know anyone of my age bracket or younger who reads it (ie. under 40)

The poll is currently running on the TRL homepage so it may not be LE readers alone. The demographic spread is likely the same as that for RL supporters in general.

[The Rocket]

12 minutes ago, DoubleD said:

Is LE an accurate reflection of mainstream fans?

I'd be interested to see the demographic of its readers, as I don't know anyone of my age bracket or younger who reads it (ie. under 40)

Mate, I`m an Australian who was flicking through the news page and saw the poll and voted. Don`t know anything about it`s readership.

Was taken aback by the results though.

[Tommygilf]

Is there a way of seeing numbers for the TRL poll? Rather than percentages?

 

[Tommygilf]

On a comparatively younger focused platform 

 

[Omott91]

16 minutes ago, The Rocket said:

Mate, I`m an Australian who was flicking through the news page and saw the poll and voted. Don`t know anything about it`s readership.

Was taken aback by the results though.

Majority though voted to keep Toronto playing, albeit with different stipulations.  

[Hela Wigmen]

I’m not sure what the ‘promotion’ of Toulouse without a solid plan around them, actually achieves other than bringing Super League up to twelve clubs. Replacing one expansion side with another without any sort of plan around how the powers that be want Super League to grow and where they want Toulouse to go as a club. Without a plan, it’s essentially a like-for-like replacement and the vicious cycle will continue till Toulouse drop back to the Championship. 

 

[Man of Kent]

4 minutes ago, Hela Wigmen said:

I’m not sure what the ‘promotion’ of Toulouse without a solid plan around them, actually achieves other than bringing Super League up to twelve clubs. Replacing one expansion side with another without any sort of plan around how the powers that be want Super League to grow and where they want Toulouse to go as a club. Without a plan, it’s essentially a like-for-like replacement and the vicious cycle will continue till Toulouse drop back to the Championship. 

Well, if Toulouse are in for 2021 and if there's going to be another restructure in tandem with a TV deal, and if Super League deems SW France to be their preferred expansion area.... 

[wiganermike]

1 minute ago, Hela Wigmen said:

I’m not sure what the ‘promotion’ of Toulouse without a solid plan around them, actually achieves other than bringing Super League up to twelve clubs. Replacing one expansion side with another without any sort of plan around how the powers that be want Super League to grow and where they want Toulouse to go as a club. Without a plan, it’s essentially a like-for-like replacement and the vicious cycle will continue till Toulouse drop back to the Championship. 

 

I suppose it would lessen the logistical strains having a second French club as opposed to a NA club. I think that whatever the outcome of the TWP discussion between the RFL and SL and whatever decision is made there needs to be a recognition of the inherent flaw in trying to expand the sport's reach without it relating to a specific purpose and plan (other than one man's dream). The governing bodies need to realise that failure is going to continue to be more likely than success in the absence of a  set strategy. Any future attempts to achieve expansion whether here or overseas need to be carried out in line with a written and agreed upon plan with measurable objectives along the way as well as an ultimate goal so that successful progress towards that goal (or the beginnings of deviation away from it) can be more quickly and accurately identified.

[The Rocket]

1 hour ago, Blind side johnny said:

I believe that a simple cost/benefit analysis would come down strognly against allowing Toronto to continue in any guise.

When the RLF sit down with the broadcasters next year and say we have got a competition with teams established in one other country ( France & the Catalans) with the possible addition of another club Toulouse and the expansion into another continent with the possibility of two teams, whom we are committed to help despite significant challenges,  then we will talk about  Intangible benefits and cost/benefit analysis. 

Blind Freddy can see what broadcasters will want . 

Over here we call them our Broadcast partners. Both want to grow the game.

[The Rocket]

20 minutes ago, Omott91 said:

Majority though voted to keep Toronto playing, albeit with different stipulations.  

Well that`s a start.

[wiganermike]

33 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

On a comparatively younger focused platform 

 

I don't think that the results on the TRL poll will be solely influenced by age demographic, but also the affiliation of those casting the votes as well. Like the famous vote to choose a player to name an end at Man City's ground that was hijacked by rival supporters and resulted in the vote being won in favour of Colin Bell.