The General 'Toronto Wolfpack' Discussion Thread

[tuutaisrambo]

50 minutes ago, TheLegendOfTexEvans said:

 

Does anyone actual think Ottowa is a real thing?  Other than another vehicle for Perez?

We get lots of big statements, but never any details. 

Start to question and your an unambitious flatclapper who would never be able to understand visions and dreams of those on the other side of Atlantic.  

The whole thing was the Emperors New Clothes. 

Video clips of members of the RFL making bold statements are going to look terribly embarrassing when watched back.

 

 

  

 

My impression is Ottawa have the same plan but with a full RFL membership because they are Hemel Stags moved to Canada.

They will also spend less on players in the championships if they have any sense.

They will still have the small hurdle of being 3500miles away from the rest of the league.

A league even more skint than normal 

[Oldbear]

10 minutes ago, FearTheVee said:

They weren't actually - my recollection is that they fell at the first hurdle.  As in the expectation gap was a yawning chasm and they were left scratching around for anywhere to play.

Wolfpack early - we want to play our early games in big European Capitals, it will be a carnival of RL!

Wolfpack a little later - actually, we're playing at Saracens but that is still good isn't it, London and all that.

Wolfp[ack a little later - we're not sure we had a deal agreed, or can afford it, at Saracens but it is definitely not our fault.

Wolfpack eventually - please Mr Hetherington and Mr Moran, can we borrow your stadiums in the heartlands?

Blah blah global brand blah blah european capitals blah blah guaranteed player payments blah blah stock market flotation blah blah NA TV deals blah blah billionaire.

Ever thought that the reason some of these grand plans fell through is that maybe the proposed partners did a little due diligence on the Wolfpack’s past business practices and thought “no thanks”. After all John Davidson pointed out there was a number of worrying signs about how the Wolfpack did business long before Covid.

I think Toby made some good points, had they managed to land the cable deal then they might have got away with it, but of course they didn’t, then Covid struck. I think we all forget how Argyle makes his money, he is a gambler by nature, this was another gamble which didn’t pay off, only this time he has screwed around with people’s livelihoods which is wrong. There’s little point pursuing him in the courts, he will always be one step ahead of the RFL and after all he did invest $30 million of his own money into the venture. 
For me the actual problem is that whenever the RFL is approached by any rich men (I say men as women are too smart to waste money investing in RL), instead of carrying out the necessary due diligence and asking for plans to cover such things as rich man walking away they have a tendency to go weak at the knees and roll over like a puppy dog. I would hope we are being more careful with Ottawa and at least know the names of the people we are dealing with (something we still don’t seem to know for the New York bid, another reason I have my doubts), because we seem to fall for the same three card trick too many times.

[silverback]

46 minutes ago, TheReaper said:

Billionaires absolutely do take advantage of cheap lending when it suits them.

And it's not just you, but I'd have thought after what, a year of the club being announced would be enough time for people to learn how to spell Ottawa properly. 

Then how much did he borrow for SBW superstar status.they were on the brink of going a full season with nill-point and bailed for a pitance of 200k, chump change to him,he cut corners from the start with leaving teams stranded at glasgow when they had work next day, and dont think stood at gate with a few FREE  beer tokens for the 35 beer stalls worked, as half of the folks dident even stand looking at the game,made the crowd look good like.talked the talk but sure as hell dident walk the walk.

[silverback]

1 minute ago, SL17 said:

Looks like Argyle can’t afford a chippy tea, as for Ottawa we will have to see what the structures bring. As things cannot continue as normal. 
 

It’s quite clear some Clubs have just had enough. New structure or the lower tiers go it alone. Stick Ottawa in SL along with Toulouse. 

Lets get this c rap over with.
 

 

 

a lot more to come yet when things maybe get sorted.even thou it took 4 years it still seemed rushed for me,i really do hope ottawa get things right and dont bring in loads of hangers on clambering for a brown pay packet while doing diddly,

[RobertAM]

a transatlantic league will work if ALL the involved participants want it to work. Clearly some did not and refused to share the income derived from the competition regardless of the fact that one of the participants, an attractive one if viewing and spectator numbers are to be believed, enabled that income to be earned. That fact and a pandemic are the reason the current Wolfpack problems have manifested themselves..certainly DA and his fellow investors and management screwed up by not ringfencing the funds needed to sustain the club but a new business model run by professionals can work but only with a buy in from the ALL I mentioned above. And that ALL includes those fans who claim to love RL and want to see it grow into a global sport. Those that dont can sit back with smug "I told you so" smirks on their faces but be prepared to watch it decline. 

[Eddie]

I really don’t understand why so many people willed TWP to fail the whole way through from the start to now, and why they want Ottawa to fail also (along with Euro XIIIs), it’s as if they don’t want the game to grow and thrive - bizarre. 
 

Often it’s the same people who say ‘we’ should be doing this or that but then do nothing about it themselves. The last fortnight has seen two excellent initiatives aired on this forum asking for small donations to help get them going (Coventry’s new community clubs and Central America development officer) but they haven’t had a sniff, from all the people who talk the talk but who aren’t prepared to put a fiver in to help people who are walking the walk. It’s obviously easier to sit in your bedsit on the Internet trying to sound clever. 

[Gerrumonside ref]

Times are forecast to get really tough in the U.K. and regional sport might be the only option for RL outside Super League unless there’s a medical breakthrough relating to COVID-19.

I feel sorry for Ottawa, but the timing isn’t right now for their plan.

We need to save as many Championship and League One clubs as possible and not burden them unnecessarily.

[RobertAM]

3 minutes ago, SL17 said:

You could say Ottawa have lost their parent club. The original plan would have included TWP. 
 

What is the plan now?

Ottawa become the parent and help Wolfpack..forgot aiming for SL in 3 years  get both clubs in Championship and watch it take off

[GeordieSaint]

6 minutes ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

Times are forecast to get really tough in the U.K. and regional sport might be the only option for RL outside Super League unless there’s a medical breakthrough relating to COVID-19.

I feel sorry for Ottawa, but the timing isn’t right now for their plan.

We need to save as many Championship and League One clubs as possible and not burden them unnecessarily.

Very sensible post. Not many on this thread but this certainly is. 

[Hela Wigmen]

Debts of £2.3m and they planned to lose £4m this year, reported by Johnny Davidson. 

Someone I know is convinced this is Argyle using COVID to jump because he had had enough/got bored etc. He should know, he works at a company that deals with administration in sport. 

[LeytherRob]

1 hour ago, TIWIT said:

The knives were out for Argyle and TWP long before Covid-19 struck. Haters gonna hate. This just gives them an excuse.

Ignore the 30 million spent. What are you gonna do now?

There were a minority who just rubbished the whole thing, however most i saw were just voicing legitimate concerns. After all, the issues around TWP were around long before Covid-19 struck. From the late payments of transfer fees for MCB, Westerman, GOB and Springer, to the ultimately never paid £100k investment into London Skolars that was promised, to later wage payments on multiple occasions blamed on admin errors and Reni Maitua going public on visa concerns after he left. 

All these were dismissed in a way they wouldn't for any of the member clubs because on the opposite side of the coin to the resolute anti expansion lot are a group that places so much hope in expansion teams being the secret to world domination they are willing to overlook almost any legitimate concerns or criticism. Both sides are just as bad as each other and equally damaging to the game.

The best way to maintain any real balance, in my opinion, is before reacting to these kinds of stories, consider what would be your reaction if it was a rival club, then your own and try to find the answer in between. Toronto Wolfpack did have a huge amount of promise and did some unprecedented work in marketing the game to a new market that everyone in RL should be learning from, however behind the scenes it's been a mess from pretty much day 1. Alarm bells should've been ringing the minute Brian Noble and Martin Vickers were given senior positions as both have horrendous track records and should be nowhere near the running of an RL club.

[Dave T]

10 minutes ago, LeytherRob said:

There were a minority who just rubbished the whole thing, however most i saw were just voicing legitimate concerns. After all, the issues around TWP were around long before Covid-19 struck. From the late payments of transfer fees for MCB, Westerman, GOB and Springer, to the ultimately never paid £100k investment into London Skolars that was promised, to later wage payments on multiple occasions blamed on admin errors and Reni Maitua going public on visa concerns after he left. 

All these were dismissed in a way they wouldn't for any of the member clubs because on the opposite side of the coin to the resolute anti expansion lot are a group that places so much hope in expansion teams being the secret to world domination they are willing to overlook almost any legitimate concerns or criticism. Both sides are just as bad as each other and equally damaging to the game.

The best way to maintain any real balance, in my opinion, is before reacting to these kinds of stories, consider what would be your reaction if it was a rival club, then your own and try to find the answer in between. Toronto Wolfpack did have a huge amount of promise and did some unprecedented work in marketing the game to a new market that everyone in RL should be learning from, however behind the scenes it's been a mess from pretty much day 1. Alarm bells should've been ringing the minute Brian Noble and Martin Vickers were given senior positions as both have horrendous track records and should be nowhere near the running of an RL club.

I think one of the biggest alarm bells for me was when they cutbthe broadcasting of those handful of games last year, breaking yet another commitment of theirs, this one being that all games would be broadcast. 

It is interesting to hear people who criticise the current TV deal as it stopped TWP getting every game on TV (and their argument was this is an absolute must in NA), also defended TWPs decision at that time. This was apparently to save a billionaire a few thousand. 

Of course the narrative came up that Sky would only show it on red button, before they confirmed that wasn't the case. 

Then these apparent showpiece games around Europe to launch TWP in SL became a cheap game in Leeds and a miserable one in Warrington. 

Just those things alone really should set off those klaxons. 

[Sir Kevin Sinfield]

22 minutes ago, Hela Wigmen said:

Debts of £2.3m and they planned to lose £4m this year, reported by Johnny Davidson. 

Someone I know is convinced this is Argyle using COVID to jump because he had had enough/got bored etc. He should know, he works at a company that deals with administration in sport. 

Rather than an excuse I think it’s a combination of things. Covid has hit Argyle not just at the Wolfpack but across all his business, he was using the money those businesses were making to part fund the Wolfpack, they are now losing money too.
 

On top of that Toronto are receiving no central funding and were due to play 0 home games, their income will be £0, but their costs haven’t been reduced like other clubs as they have no access to the furlough scheme, so the Wolfpack probably have the highest outgoings and the least coming in from and Super League club.

When they reached out for help the other Super League clubs said no, Argyle realised the rest of Super League was against him and they didn’t want the Wolfpack, hence he’s looking to walk away. 

[LeytherRob]

13 minutes ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

Rather than an excuse I think it’s a combination of things. Covid has hit Argyle not just at the Wolfpack but across all his business, he was using the money those businesses were making to part fund the Wolfpack, they are now losing money too. 

That doesn't explain why these problems have been occurring long before Covid. The pandemic may have made the situation worse but they were already heading for a huge loss this year.

13 minutes ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

On top of that Toronto are receiving no central funding and were due to play 0 home games, their income will be £0, but their costs haven’t been reduced like other clubs as they have no access to the furlough scheme, so the Wolfpack probably have the highest outgoings and the least coming in from and Super League club.

Whilst some of this is true, and if it was up to me TW would've either received central funding or not had to fund away travel in SL(but not both), the second biggest cost for TW, outside of wages, was flying 11 teams over to Canada and paying for the everything that went with it. These costs were removed, along with renegotiating much of the wage bill when furlough kicked in for the others so their cost base did reduce significantly.

I can sympathise with the bad luck of Covid, however they needlessly over extended themselves financially  by paying astronomical wages on only 22 (mostly average)players to the point where they were having to abuse the trialist system to even get a team on the pitch by round 4. Even if Covid hadn't happened, they were in serious danger of not completing the season without the salary cap being waived for them, which likely would've led to financial issues anyway.

 

13 minutes ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

When they reached out for help the other Super League clubs said no, Argyle realised the rest of Super League was against him and they didn’t want the Wolfpack, hence he’s looking to walk away. 

No one knows why he's walked away, so trying to frame it as some dummy spit because the other SL chairmen didn't bend to his every whim is just disingenuous at best. 

[Man of Kent]

I will shave every hair on my body and swim the Channel nude if Newcastle United FC buys the Jokepack. 

Great leveller, Toronto. 
 

 

[TheReaper]

7 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

I will shave every hair on my body and swim the Channel nude if Newcastle United FC buys the Jokepack. 

Great leveller, Toronto. 
 

 

Quoted for the 1 in a billion chance it happens  

[Man of Kent]

This stuff sticks in the craw. https://www.totalrl.com/hes-taken-a-manual-labour-job-his-wife-has-cut-short-her-maternity-leave-greg-worthingtons-family-turmoil-with-zero-confidence-in-toronto-wolfpack-pay/

Super League is supposed to be elite sport, not where players’ wives cut short maternity leave to avoid poverty.

[Eddie]

1 hour ago, SL17 said:

You could say Ottawa have lost their parent club. The original plan would have included TWP. 
 

What is the plan now?

There you go again

[meast]

21 hours ago, TIWIT said:

Toronto rugby fans will turn their attention to the Arrows now. RL blows up their beachhead in North America and just hands it over to RU. The shortsighted stupidity of RL and flat-out greed of SL owners boggles the mind... 

I would far sooner watch RL than RU, but if that's the only rugby I'm going to get that's what I'll take.

Or maybe the Union club are built on some sort of foundations rather than dollar bills and actually run the club properly rather than just gob off about what they're going to do and how they're going to do it and how everyone should stop what they're doing and stand in awe as the pack ran...... Away!

It's all very well looking for a blame and playing a victim, but Argyle and the Wolfpack have to accept that they messed up too and accept some of the blame for the embarrassment.

[TIWIT]

People forget that Argyle first came in as both a fan of the game but also as a businessman. He always knew that TWP were going to be a money pit, but for a good businessman that equals tax writeoffs.

For that to work his businesses would have to be tied together so that money-losers like TWP could be used to offset the profitability of some other more successful company. That way the financial losses didn't matter so much and Argyle could play fanboy with his toy. And yes, this also led to occasional cash-flow difficulties. Nor did it prevent him from seeking to minimize TWP's losses.

Then Covid hit and in a few short weeks ALL of Argyle's holdings became money losers. He didn't need a tax writeoff anymore. Fanboy Argyle went away and hard-nosed businessmen Argyle took over. What could be cut to save a few bucks? The answer is obvious and that's where we are now.

New owners might have a different perspective on things but I really don't see how anyone can make money on the terms SL is bound to impose, so the team is effectively dead.

The only ones who might want TWP would be a Canadian broadcaster simply for the programming but even that's all tied up with Sky and their new TV deal with SL, so...

I am afraid the dream is dead. The 5-year plan becomes the entire life of the team. Be an interesting book or TV documentary when it inevitably comes out in a few years.

[Hela Wigmen]

15 minutes ago, TIWIT said:

 

Then Covid hit and in a few short weeks ALL of Argyle's holdings became money losers. 

 

That would further suggest Argyle is a fraud. 

[Oldbear]

1 hour ago, LeytherRob said:

There were a minority who just rubbished the whole thing, however most i saw were just voicing legitimate concerns. After all, the issues around TWP were around long before Covid-19 struck. From the late payments of transfer fees for MCB, Westerman, GOB and Springer, to the ultimately never paid £100k investment into London Skolars that was promised, to later wage payments on multiple occasions blamed on admin errors and Reni Maitua going public on visa concerns after he left. 

All these were dismissed in a way they wouldn't for any of the member clubs because on the opposite side of the coin to the resolute anti expansion lot are a group that places so much hope in expansion teams being the secret to world domination they are willing to overlook almost any legitimate concerns or criticism. Both sides are just as bad as each other and equally damaging to the game.

The best way to maintain any real balance, in my opinion, is before reacting to these kinds of stories, consider what would be your reaction if it was a rival club, then your own and try to find the answer in between. Toronto Wolfpack did have a huge amount of promise and did some unprecedented work in marketing the game to a new market that everyone in RL should be learning from, however behind the scenes it's been a mess from pretty much day 1. Alarm bells should've been ringing the minute Brian Noble and Martin Vickers were given senior positions as both have horrendous track records and should be nowhere near the running of an RL club.

Hit the nail right on the head. This is so true, if you criticized TWP you were anti expansion but if you were totally blind to their shortcomings then your missionary zeal was equally damaging. The truth is that for every positive that TWP brought to the game, and there were many, the sheer level of incompetence and mismanagement off the field was staggering. There were plenty of alarm bells, but for some reason they were ignored and now we are where we are. I also suspect that Mr Argyle, having failed to get his own way and failed to get his TV deal has now just said enough is enough and the whole Covid situation has provided him with a convenient get out. Or maybe he has woken up to the staggering level of off field incompetence and realized that it can’t be fixed, either way there is no excuse for leaving the players in their current position.

[TIWIT]

15 minutes ago, Hela Wigmen said:

That would further suggest Argyle is a fraud. 

Congratulations. You've added 1 + 1 and come up with 3. Which would suggest you really don't get it.

[Oldbear]

27 minutes ago, SL17 said:

Perez left or forced out? Straight question?

We will never really know, I suspect if you disagree with Mr Argyle you don’t stick around long. For a club that only just made it into their 4th season they had a lot of staff turnover, and I mean off the field.

[gazza77]

1 hour ago, SL17 said:

Tom is a very qualified person in another career. He was given time at Leigh to fulfill those qualifications.  He chose to stick the sport out. 
 

 

Tom?