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The General 'Toronto Wolfpack' Discussion Thread


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2 hours ago, dkw said:

I dread to think how many owners/ex owners of clubs there have been that did the exact same thing as Perez is doing, I know for a fact the local clubs in Cumbria have done it over the years, even basically killing the club and starting back up to avoid paying their debts

Perez?

Sport, amongst other things, is a dream-world offering escape from harsh reality and the disturbing prospect of change.

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18 minutes ago, Blind side johnny said:

Have you read the article Harry, or are you just adding your imaginary conversations with McManus to it?

Yes, as I said he mentions funding deliberately as in any club no matter where from, and on Travel and Subsistance I said as far as I know Mr McManus as not agreed to it, do you not consider that will be of primary importance to some SL clubs?

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27 minutes ago, ATLANTISMAN said:

Thats the difference TV money.

Still finding the whole thing bizarre, and I have a feeling also that there is more to this than meets the eye.

 

Paul

Not really. TWP are reportedly spending the value of TV money more on wages than other clubs. So they reckoned they could afford that without TV money. So their budget was fine without tv money. 

The bigger issue is not being able to use the furlough scheme that the UK teams have had access to. The reason for this is how the club has set itself up, but that can't be criticised too much for not foreseeing this. 

But the thing that has changed since they agreed their budget is Covid. That is the issue, nothing else. 

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4 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Plenty of rich people treat suppliers with contempt. 

I know of one company who actually had a policy of trying to kill at least one company per project so they didnt need to pay the bills, it was even included in their budgeting. All I`ll say is they were a huge construction company that was in the news last year....

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1 hour ago, dkw said:

I know of one company who actually had a policy of trying to kill at least one company per project so they didnt need to pay the bills, it was even included in their budgeting. All I`ll say is they were a huge construction company that was in the news last year....

Yeah your right mega rich people offload debit by having multiple companies and using failed companies as a tax write off for the successful companies. 

If anyone wants to look back at the original Toronto Wolfpack Thread on this forum before they even entered a team in Championship one I said RFL would need to do a very good job of there due diligence before allowing Wolfpack into the competition. I really hope the RFL have a watertight contract with Argyle where there is a penalty if he pulls out of Super League to recoup losses as a tax write off.

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1 hour ago, JohnM said:

thats how some get rich.

 

And they dont always look after the paying customer most a the time,i will always go back for more if am looked after,nothing special just a bit a time and effort works a treat.

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6 hours ago, PhilCarrington said:

So what was the excuse for not paying suppliers before March 2020? That can't be put down to Cover-19. 

Do you know Phil, why they weren't paid, or whether they were paid eventually, just late? 

I don't know, but from my own experience (at a much smaller scale) I've had cause to withhold or delay payments to suppliers when their end of the deal wasn't being held up.

I've also suffered mis-matches in the rate of cash flowing in and out of my business which resulted in me delaying payments to my suppliers even when I was perfectly satisfied with their performance because I didn't have the cash to hand.

Argyle may have created a working capital account and left it to his management team to run the business while he turned his attention to his other interests and they may have mismanaged the cash flow. Or perhaps their initial estimates of working capital requirements might have been too low, resulting in them going cap in hand to him to make up the shortfall.

The effect of this virus, will have removed all income potential from the club and without access (from the Canadian government) to any furlough relief payments nor any share of the Sky money, the cash requirement would have gone through the roof.

Consider also, that the Canadian government might have prevented teams and players from flying in and out of the country.

Now, the pre-covid David Argyle, might have been able and willing to make up the difference, but who knows (in all honesty) what effect the pandemic has had on his other interests?

He may be facing a catastrophic failure of his entire empire. If that is true, then its hardly surprising he has withdrawn from the competition.

If you factor in, the utter contempt the super league clubs have shown for him and the enormous investment he has made in trying to promote our game, I can forgive him for winding down the operation. 

Under the circumstances I think Mcmanus's comments are a wake up call to Elstone and the other chairman and incidentally, all the killers on this site.

Toronto have demonstrated quite clearly, the huge potential benefits they could bring to our game, with a fair wind, a bit of luck and a more appreciative Super League fraternity. We should allow them the maximum time and leeway to regroup and rebuild the club if its at all possible. 

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1 hour ago, fighting irish said:

Do you know Phil, why they weren't paid, or whether they were paid eventually, just late? 

I don't know, but from my own experience (at a much smaller scale) I've had cause to withhold or delay payments to suppliers when their end of the deal wasn't being held up.

I've also suffered mis-matches in the rate of cash flowing in and out of my business which resulted in me delaying payments to my suppliers even when I was perfectly satisfied with their performance because I didn't have the cash to hand.

Argyle may have created a working capital account and left it to his management team to run the business while he turned his attention to his other interests and they may have mismanaged the cash flow. Or perhaps their initial estimates of working capital requirements might have been too low, resulting in them going cap in hand to him to make up the shortfall.

The effect of this virus, will have removed all income potential from the club and without access (from the Canadian government) to any furlough relief payments nor any share of the Sky money, the cash requirement would have gone through the roof.

Consider also, that the Canadian government might have prevented teams and players from flying in and out of the country.

Now, the pre-covid David Argyle, might have been able and willing to make up the difference, but who knows (in all honesty) what effect the pandemic has had on his other interests?

He may be facing a catastrophic failure of his entire empire. If that is true, then its hardly surprising he has withdrawn from the competition.

If you factor in, the utter contempt the super league clubs have shown for him and the enormous investment he has made in trying to promote our game, I can forgive him for winding down the operation. 

Under the circumstances I think Mcmanus's comments are a wake up call to Elstone and the other chairman and incidentally, all the killers on this site.

Toronto have demonstrated quite clearly, the huge potential benefits they could bring to our game, with a fair wind, a bit of luck and a more appreciative Super League fraternity. We should allow them the maximum time and leeway to regroup and rebuild the club if its at all possible. 

To answer your first point - some still not paid. But no trouble for Argylle or his delegated management in making big money player signings.

Estimates posted on here range from £16m to £20m spent in less than years. Unsustainable even before Covid-19.

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42 minutes ago, PhilCarrington said:

To answer your first point - some still not paid. But no trouble for Argylle or his delegated management in making big money player signings.

Estimates posted on here range from £16m to £20m spent in less than years. Unsustainable even before Covid-19.

Of course it was unsustainable but lets blame the virus..

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3 minutes ago, briggyq said:

Of course it was unsustainable but lets blame the virus..

Plug were pulled,ceasefire called but i do think argyle will pop up again shortly with another bag a dosh.and a plan.

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On Saturday morning I watched this documentary by Rugby AM on Toronto Wolfpack. 

See > 

What I found interesting from this was Brian McDermotts closing section.

"There's a real risk we will get relegated this year and It won't be to do with performance"

 

 

 

 

2008 RFL Wakefield & District Young Volunteer of the Year

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10 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

But at a different level Dave , quite simply because of the location 

Potentially. It's all back to what the rewards are Gub. If we can capitalise on moving into a new market we can bring in new value to cover these things. Now I don't make that statement lightly, as we have seen that the game can be poor at maximising these opportunities, like is the case with Catalans. 

But in reality, the costs will be relatively modest in a sporting sense. 

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On 17/08/2020 at 13:33, Dave T said:

I put that more to an owner who puts little value on paying the little people on time. 

They have had plenty of examples of this, but have been investing and surviving. 

Being an a-hole with suppliers is not necessarily and indication of lack of funding. It is often an indication of the leader's morals.

Are players the little people? they've also missed payroll 

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5 minutes ago, Themusician_2 said:

Are players the little people? they've also missed payroll 

Clearly, yes. 

They may be higher on the list than merchandise suppliers, but they are lower down than the rich person themselves. 

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1 hour ago, Whippet13 said:

Still sounds optimistic, although at the end he does describe himself as the ultimate optimist, so hopefully it isn't just that but there is some reality at play here!

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1 hour ago, Whippet13 said:

Quote:-

"Super League owners would have to support us coming back into Super League next year"

Given the demands Mr Argyle wanted of both full funding and clubs to pay their own Travel and Subsistance for games in Toronto, if the proposed new owner's insisted on these contingencies would it get through?

 

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