The General 'Toronto Wolfpack' Discussion Thread

[Oldbear]

8 hours ago, Dave T said:

Thanks, so why do so many people make out there is a pot of gold on offer here? 

I wish I knew.

The reality is that Canada is a very big country with a small population relative to its size. That population is mostly concentrated in three provinces, Ontario, Quebec and B.C. One of those provinces is French speaking and Francophone in its culture. One of the reasons Hockey is a religion is that it’s the one sport you find in every province, every small town has a team, otherwise sports are typically strong in larger population centres. The TV value of this market, unless it’s the NHL, is relatively small, to land the large TV deal you need the US on board too, and somehow I don’t see the dream of a schoolteacher from Huddersfield capturing the American attention. Americans like to dominate at sport, otherwise they lose interest, do we honestly think that New York, with what little we know about it’s set up, can provide the dominance to make Americans sit up and watch?

[GUBRATS]

So all the suggestions that there was a way to find the end of a rainbow by admitting Toronto was complete nonsense ? 

[Dave T]

11 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

So all the suggestions that there was a way to find the end of a rainbow by admitting Toronto was complete nonsense ? 

To be fair, those who thought that, will probably still think that. 

The people in the middle ground are now having a say without being drowned out. 

And you Leythers, well, you are on your own

[GUBRATS]

1 minute ago, Dave T said:

To be fair, those who thought that, will probably still think that. 

The people in the middle ground are now having a say without being drowned out. 

And you Leythers, well, you are on your own

Just asking the question , not offering an opinion , a bit like you

[Robin Evans]

4 minutes ago, Dave T said:

 

And you Leythers, well, you are on your own

No change there.... like the citizens of Eyam......

[TIWIT]

11 hours ago, gingerjon said:

But it is not the same market as the USA. It is not a rich market. Established sports like hockey, CFL, basketball and baseball have all retrenched there recently.

So, to repeat: what is the value rugby league is chasing and how does it get there?

Because if TWP are our best chance then it's not going to happen.

Where do you get that from? Toronto is a very rich sports market, its teams well-supported win or lose. By its very nature, any Toronto team becomes 'Canada's team' when playing internationally. A successful TWP would open the game up to an interested Canadian market, but without the assistance of the English RFL they are doomed to failure.

Quite frankly, I don't see that happening.

[TIWIT]

According to Bob Hunter a buyer for TWP has been identified. He is an existing member of the ownership group who fully intends to clear the club's debts and keep the team where it is.

Hunter does not mention if purchase conditions include keeping the team in SL but he does make it clear that is his personal preference, if only because it's simpler for all concerned.

Hunter expects things to be finalized and forwarded to SL/RFL by the end of the week.

[frank]

1 hour ago, TIWIT said:

According to Bob Hunter a buyer for TWP has been identified. He is an existing member of the ownership group who fully intends to clear the club's debts and keep the team where it is.

Hunter does not mention if purchase conditions include keeping the team in SL but he does make it clear that is his personal preference, if only because it's simpler for all concerned.

Hunter expects things to be finalized and forwarded to SL/RFL by the end of the week.

Fingers crossed for that!Hope SL have the nouse to give them a fair go if they make it back.

[gingerjon]

4 hours ago, TIWIT said:

Where do you get that from? Toronto is a very rich sports market, its teams well-supported win or lose. By its very nature, any Toronto team becomes 'Canada's team' when playing internationally. A successful TWP would open the game up to an interested Canadian market, but without the assistance of the English RFL they are doomed to failure.

Quite frankly, I don't see that happening.

My point is that Toronto is not a huge untapped market and Canada is not a rich sports market. Wiki lists over a dozen credible professional sports teams, and that's before you get to decent semi-pro and university teams. The value of the Canadian sports market is shown by the figures I quoted earlier. Half the population of the UK and with an already established set of sporting interests. I just don't see how rugby league gets a huge, game changing deal, there.

So, the question is, from a game perspective - not a what's best for the Wolfpack perspective - if the game is to spend money on Toronto rugby league, what's the return? Because, right now, several years in, the return is zero dollars in additional television deals, zero increase in participation or relative strength of Canadian rugby league, and zero new players. Any money that has been generated has entirely gone to the club itself - and we've seen that that doesn't appear to be enough to pay the players on time.

I'm a veteran of these conversations on here. London have, at times, been given additional help by the RFL and others (although never to the extent that some supporters of other clubs believe). But the argument that "The RFL should invest in London because the streets are paved with gold" was defeated a long time ago.

If Toronto carry on - and I would love them to - they have to stop pretending that they are anything other than just another club playing for the benefit of their fans and owners. They are not a unique opportunity for rugby league. If they can find a buyer, pay their way, and be competitive, then I think it's absolutely on the RFL and Super League to keep them on. But the idea that they're doing rugby league a favour by opening up El Dorado to us is a nonsense and shouldn't be any part of the discussion.

[Michael1812]

1 hour ago, gingerjon said:

My point is that Toronto is not a huge untapped market and Canada is not a rich sports market. Wiki lists over a dozen credible professional sports teams, and that's before you get to decent semi-pro and university teams. The value of the Canadian sports market is shown by the figures I quoted earlier. Half the population of the UK and with an already established set of sporting interests. I just don't see how rugby league gets a huge, game changing deal, there. 

And I did point out that some of your numbers were wrong (not that I checked all of them).

A few numbers regarding the CPL. Brand new football league with 8 teams that average around 4,000 attendance and is borderline semi-pro, gets $20 million CND a year for broadcast rights. That would be £1 million a year for each Super League club on top of their current broadcast deal.  This doesn’t seem out of reach for Super League in the future.  Super League would need to decide if it worth proceeding in an attempt to grown revenues. 

[Dave T]

2 minutes ago, Michael1812 said:

And I did point out that some of your numbers were wrong (not that I checked all of them).

A few numbers regarding the CPL. Brand new football league with 8 teams that average around 4,000 attendance and is borderline semi-pro, gets $20 million CND a year for broadcast rights. That would be £1 million a year for each Super League club on top of their current broadcast deal.  This doesn’t seem out of reach for Super League in the future.  Super League would need to decide if it worth proceeding in an attempt to grown revenues. 

You genuinely believe the size of the prize is comparable to an 8 team Canadian Soccer League?

That's a bit like claiming if Manchester set up a CFL team and got 10k averages then CFL could get a £40m per annum deal like RL gets from Sky.

I don't believe that is the size of the prize tbh (based on 1 NA team) - but it is welcome that you seem to be the first person to put a number on the table for discussion.

One point I would make is that these conversations I assume are already happening - TWP have had deals with these broadcasters anyway, as have SLE's agents - we should have an idea on what a broadcaster would want in exchange for more money. We have seen in France that the presence of 1 strong team doesn't lead to a paying TV deal. 

[gingerjon]

56 minutes ago, Michael1812 said:

And I did point out that some of your numbers were wrong (not that I checked all of them).

A few numbers regarding the CPL. Brand new football league with 8 teams that average around 4,000 attendance and is borderline semi-pro, gets $20 million CND a year for broadcast rights. That would be £1 million a year for each Super League club on top of their current broadcast deal.  This doesn’t seem out of reach for Super League in the future.  Super League would need to decide if it worth proceeding in an attempt to grown revenues. 

I couldn't see where your numbers came from and mine still looked right when I checked.

Anyway, in the interest of accuracy about that soccer deal. It looks like it's for the Canadian Premier League, the Canadian Championship, something called League 1 Ontario, and all Canadian national team matches both men's and women's. And it's for global rights to those not just domestic.

It's a not a bad deal at all. But it's worse than Super League has now and nothing in your post suggests how funding the Toronto Wolfpack (remember: zero new players, zero development (it seems) with Canadian Rugby League) gets us our own £10m a year.

[Oldbear]

8 hours ago, gingerjon said:

My point is that Toronto is not a huge untapped market and Canada is not a rich sports market. Wiki lists over a dozen credible professional sports teams, and that's before you get to decent semi-pro and university teams. The value of the Canadian sports market is shown by the figures I quoted earlier. Half the population of the UK and with an already established set of sporting interests. I just don't see how rugby league gets a huge, game changing deal, there.

So, the question is, from a game perspective - not a what's best for the Wolfpack perspective - if the game is to spend money on Toronto rugby league, what's the return? Because, right now, several years in, the return is zero dollars in additional television deals, zero increase in participation or relative strength of Canadian rugby league, and zero new players. Any money that has been generated has entirely gone to the club itself - and we've seen that that doesn't appear to be enough to pay the players on time.

I'm a veteran of these conversations on here. London have, at times, been given additional help by the RFL and others (although never to the extent that some supporters of other clubs believe). But the argument that "The RFL should invest in London because the streets are paved with gold" was defeated a long time ago.

If Toronto carry on - and I would love them to - they have to stop pretending that they are anything other than just another club playing for the benefit of their fans and owners. They are not a unique opportunity for rugby league. If they can find a buyer, pay their way, and be competitive, then I think it's absolutely on the RFL and Super League to keep them on. But the idea that they're doing rugby league a favour by opening up El Dorado to us is a nonsense and shouldn't be any part of the discussion.

This is my worry too. I can’t see the pot of gold either and I would love RL to get a strong foothold in Canada, but the reality is that over 99% of the population barely knows that the team exists, and the 1% that does will not be large enough to deliver a game changing TV deal. For me the best case scenario is that TWP finds a deal that allows it to wash its face, but let’s not pretend that there’s a bounty for all on its way.

[TIWIT]

Link to the complete article:

https://www.thestar.com/sports/2020/08/24/financially-troubled-toronto-wolfpack-move-a-step-closer-to-new-ownership.html

Very honest and up-front when he says, "It’s been a very embarrassing time for us,” said Hunter. “I hate to suggest this but we kind of deserve what we get in social media and mainstream media.

“It’s embarrassing that the club is in the situation it’s in. But we’re trying to do the best we can.”

As an aside, for anyone who doubts the size and viability of the Toronto sports market, just look at the number of links on the main sports page. You could literally spend the entire day just reading those articles. Torontonians, nay, the 10 million people who live in the Toronto market (defined as the driving distance into the city, approx. 2 hours), love sports. Rugby League might never progress from a niche sport, but it could thrive in that same area Toronto Arrows/Rock, maybe the declining Argonauts, live in.

[Tommygilf]

23 minutes ago, TIWIT said:

Link to the complete article:

https://www.thestar.com/sports/2020/08/24/financially-troubled-toronto-wolfpack-move-a-step-closer-to-new-ownership.html

Very honest and up-front when he says, "It’s been a very embarrassing time for us,” said Hunter. “I hate to suggest this but we kind of deserve what we get in social media and mainstream media.

“It’s embarrassing that the club is in the situation it’s in. But we’re trying to do the best we can.”

As an aside, for anyone who doubts the size and viability of the Toronto sports market, just look at the number of links on the main sports page. You could literally spend the entire day just reading those articles. Torontonians, nay, the 10 million people who live in the Toronto market (defined as the driving distance into the city, approx. 2 hours), love sports. Rugby League might never progress from a niche sport, but it could thrive in that same area Toronto Arrows/Rock, maybe the declining Argonauts, live in.

Toronto, with a tiny niche in that area and after 3 years playing in the 2nd and 3rd divisions, are already in the top 8 best supported rugby league teams in the northern hemisphere and averaged crowds higher all but the top 6

[gingerjon]

1 hour ago, Tommygilf said:

Toronto, with a tiny niche in that area and after 3 years playing in the 2nd and 3rd divisions, are already in the top 8 best supported rugby league teams in the northern hemisphere and averaged crowds higher all but the top 6

Yes. And that is brilliant and will serve rugby league in Toronto well. I hope an investor keeps it going and the club continues growing.

But that doesn’t guarantee riches the wider game ... and is also very depressing about the state of the game here. No wonder we’re hand to mouth.

[Dave T]

This isn't intended to take this cross Code, but I keep an eye on the Pro14 as I think it has some potential synergies with SL. 

Their two South African teams have announced they will not be playing in the season that is due to start in October (they also didn't finish the last season). 

I made the point when TWP pulled out that this isn't the PR disaster some claimed, it is not unexpected and we are seeing similar issues elsewhere. 

[Man of Kent]

1 minute ago, Dave T said:

This isn't intended to take this cross Code, but I keep an eye on the Pro14 as I think it has some potential synergies with SL. 

Their two South African teams have announced they will not be playing in the season that is due to start in October (they also didn't finish the last season). 

I made the point when TWP pulled out that this isn't the PR disaster some claimed, it is not unexpected and we are seeing similar issues elsewhere. 

Interesting. Doesn’t sound Southern Kings will be back either as it was apparently not viable even in the good times...

https://kingsrugby.co.za/2020/08/25/southern-kings-suspend-playing-activities-for-2020/

Quickly back to Toronto and RL. The issue was never whether it’s a PR disaster or not - who cares, really? - but how they collapsed under a real-life ‘stress test’. Maybe Toronto, Pro 14 and the ‘nationalisation’ of Super Rugby are trying to tell us something...?

[Dave T]

Just now, Man of Kent said:

Interesting. Doesn’t sound Southern Kings will be back either as it was apparently not viable even in the good times...

https://kingsrugby.co.za/2020/08/25/southern-kings-suspend-playing-activities-for-2020/

Quickly back to Toronto and RL. The issue was never whether it’s a PR disaster or not - who cares, really? - but how they collapsed under a real-life ‘stress test’. Maybe Toronto, Pro 14 and the ‘nationalisation’ of Super Rugby are trying to tell us something...?

I agree that is the issue, my point was about those people who were obsessed with calling it a farce and we were a joke and 'only in RL etc' when it is anything but.

Your point about how quickly this collapsed is the important one. 

[Lowdesert]

North American guy to be presented to SL in the next 2 weeks.  Will cover existing liabilities.  

Odds on being accepted anyone?

[Adelaide Tiger]

On 23/08/2020 at 20:03, GUBRATS said:

There is only one way that we will see a transatlantic type SL , forget shoving clubs through L1 and the Championship , put them straight in SL , the lower tiers aren't geared up for it 

It is also not realistic to then relegate a NA club , so they would have to be exempt , so then it would boil down to the SL clubs owners , would they be prepared to see their club relegated despite finishing above potentially 1/2/3/4 NA clubs , this of course because IMO retaining P and R is sacrosanct

I agree with all of that.  But as you say it would boil down to SL club owners and that is where the problem lies.  Too many SL clubs owners are too focussed on just keeping their club going rather than supporting the bigger picture which MAY bring extra money and investment into the game in the longer term.

It all reminds me of the tv series The Hotel Inspector.  The hotel is failing, it is losing money, so the owners cut corners and hey presto they lose even more money but they are clinging on to their business by their fingertips so they cut more corners. The presenter points out the folly of this strategy and encourages the owners to invest and possibly become a successful business.  The key word here is ‘possibly’ because there are no guarantees but as viewers we clearly see that a change in strategy is the only rational way forward to having a long term chance of survival.

I have always supported putting clubs, either new entities like TWP or existing clubs that have/attract an extremely rich backer, direct into SL with caveats.  As a cash starved sport the powers that be thinks it is a great idea to say to an investor who has $30 million ‘Sorry me old mucker, we know that you can build an RL powerhouse but the existing clubs, some of which are clinging to survive do not like it.  So you can start by playing in against semi-pro/amateur teams in the bottom tier and within a few years we may think of accepting you  ..... Oh, by the way would you like to sponsor SL in the mean time’.  Absolutely ludicrous.

[GUBRATS]

1 hour ago, Adelaide Tiger said:

I agree with all of that.  But as you say it would boil down to SL club owners and that is where the problem lies.  Too many SL clubs owners are too focussed on just keeping their club going rather than supporting the bigger picture which MAY bring extra money and investment into the game in the longer term.

It all reminds me of the tv series The Hotel Inspector.  The hotel is failing, it is losing money, so the owners cut corners and hey presto they lose even more money but they are clinging on to their business by their fingertips so they cut more corners. The presenter points out the folly of this strategy and encourages the owners to invest and possibly become a successful business.  The key word here is ‘possibly’ because there are no guarantees but as viewers we clearly see that a change in strategy is the only rational way forward to having a long term chance of survival.

I have always supported putting clubs, either new entities like TWP or existing clubs that have/attract an extremely rich backer, direct into SL with caveats.  As a cash starved sport the powers that be thinks it is a great idea to say to an investor who has $30 million ‘Sorry me old mucker, we know that you can build an RL powerhouse but the existing clubs, some of which are clinging to survive do not like it.  So you can start by playing in against semi-pro/amateur teams in the bottom tier and within a few years we may think of accepting you  ..... Oh, by the way would you like to sponsor SL in the mean time’.  Absolutely ludicrous.

So you'd be happy cutting clubs that don't or cannot find that investment ?

[gingerjon]

1 hour ago, Lowdesert said:

North American guy to be presented to SL in the next 2 weeks.  Will cover existing liabilities.  

Odds on being accepted anyone?

Let's see what the details are first.

[Man of Kent]

1 hour ago, Lowdesert said:

North American guy to be presented to SL in the next 2 weeks.  Will cover existing liabilities.  

Odds on being accepted anyone?

High chance of being accepted, I reckon. It’s a comp that gives sponsorship away for free pizza. 

Whether they are accepted as a full member with TV money, not so sure. They may be put on the naughty step for a while. 

 

[Lowdesert]

1 minute ago, gingerjon said:

Let's see what the details are first.

Obviously.

If they put guarantees in, i very much doubt SL will allow them full membership from the off.  Maybe 2022.  In my opinion of course.