The General 'Toronto Wolfpack' Discussion Thread

[Eddie]

2 hours ago, Jayme2020 said:

I think it would make most sense for TWP and Ottawa to be in league 1 or championship for a few reasons

1)Both can share travel costs and base out of the same city in the UK

2)Both can split the cost of bringing teams from Europe

3)They both could build a really good rival being in the same league.

 

If they need to get on a plane they’ll still need to buy tickets for everyone, it won’t cost them half if they travel together. 

[Kayakman]

1 hour ago, FearTheVee said:

I don't believe in Toronto Wolfpack and I feel that howver many times we do this we are doomed to land in the same place.

That said, I hope I couldn't be more wrong and the new owner comes in and somehow turns it into a viable proposition.

Good luck to them, but it all whiffs of inevitable disaster to me.

KNOCK...KNOCK....KNOCK...Please, Kind Sir!,  just open the door A LITTLE and let us in....its cold outside...I promise we won't stay long.

[Kayakman]

19 hours ago, TIWIT said:

Looks to be a Ferrari fan. That does not bode well.

Kayakman has been awfully quiet this week. You don't suppose...

I JUST GOT BACK IN!

[Kayakman]

2 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

And if P&R is retained John, are you saying that 11 clubs could possibly be relegated but Toronto would be excempt?

It would only be true and just Harry...after all that we have been through!

[TIWIT]

6 hours ago, John WP Fan said:

The new owner would be a fool to invest in saving the team without being assured his investment had a good chance of paying off long term. Here's what I think would make sense:

 

I think those are good starting points for negotiations to begin but they have to be some give-and-take on both sides. SL holds all the cards obviously but they have to take some responsibility for TWP's failure, treating them not as a full member but as an unwanted party-crasher who just happens to have lots of free booze so they are at least tolerated. 

And of course there's the Covid elephant in the room. Until and unless it's beaten down, international travel resumes and TWP can play at Lamport there's no point. But an agreement can still be reached; the actual start date for it to begin left blank for now.

And of course Sky has to agree that having TWP in SL brings a value to the league that, say, Fev or Leigh do not.

[TIWIT]

4 minutes ago, Kayakman said:

I JUST GOT BACK IN!

Look, he's not denying it!

[Kayakman]

46 minutes ago, TIWIT said:

Look, he's not denying it!

I drive good Union Made North American products....not foreign scrap.

P.S.  Plus they are cheaper to repair.

[fighting irish]

Anyone got any idea about when a ''decision'' might be made?

[TIWIT]

1 hour ago, Kayakman said:

I drive good Union Made North American products....not foreign scrap.

P.S.  Plus they are cheaper to repair.

That proves nothing. I drive a Buick, but if I could I'd love to have a Mercedes. But since they cost more than my house...

Come on K'man, fess up what you've really been up to this summer.

[Whippet13]

Toronto now appear to have the public backing of the player's union:

https://www.loverugbyleague.com/post/players-union-back-calls-for-central-funding-to-save-toronto-wolfpack/

[dealwithit]

I get that they only gave 13 days notice that they were withdrawing, but would it have been better if they started the season and then pulled out after a game or two?

The NZ Warriors were nearly at breaking point, despite receiving circa $10M from the NRL and having the government bend over backwards for them. The RFL and SL are hardly in a position to wield such influence or have the financial resources to replicate. Covid isn’t easy. 

[Kayakman]

2 hours ago, TIWIT said:

That proves nothing. I drive a Buick, but if I could I'd love to have a Mercedes. But since they cost more than my house...

Come on K'man, fess up what you've really been up to this summer.

Workin and paddlin...paddlin and workin...always goin...never stoppin....these are the tenants....this is my life.

[John WP Fan]

8 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

And if P&R is retained John, are you saying that 11 clubs could possibly be relegated but Toronto would be excempt?

Relegating all 11 other teams would make for a rather uninteresting league!

More seriously, yes. I’m suggesting they get the same deal as Catalans.

P&R is completely foreign to us here, and I do not understand how a major sports team can expect to plan with that in the picture. I think it holds the sport back.

Our major sports have tiers, from top-dollar professional to 2nd tier (still decently-paid full-ti e professional) to semi-pro. The teams don’t move between leagues, but leagues expand and accept new cities, where markets are large enough to support a team, and owners willing to pay a hefty entrance fee. 
 

i was hoping Super League was a major professional sport. I still hope it can become one, and I still think TWP can help that happen.

[Big Picture]

3 hours ago, John WP Fan said:

Relegating all 11 other teams would make for a rather uninteresting league!

More seriously, yes. I’m suggesting they get the same deal as Catalans.

P&R is completely foreign to us here, and I do not understand how a major sports team can expect to plan with that in the picture. I think it holds the sport back.

Our major sports have tiers, from top-dollar professional to 2nd tier (still decently-paid full-ti e professional) to semi-pro. The teams don’t move between leagues, but leagues expand and accept new cities, where markets are large enough to support a team, and owners willing to pay a hefty entrance fee. 
 

i was hoping Super League was a major professional sport. I still hope it can become one, and I still think TWP can help that happen.

SL isn't a major professional league though, the whole Wolfpack exercise has exposed it as a small time minor league which for many reasons can never be more than that.  There's only way RL in the northern hemisphere could have a major pro league and that's for someone to create a brand new league which operates outside the constraints which hold back both the RFL and SL.

[Adelaide Tiger]

2 hours ago, John WP Fan said:

Relegating all 11 other teams would make for a rather uninteresting league!

More seriously, yes. I’m suggesting they get the same deal as Catalans.

P&R is completely foreign to us here, and I do not understand how a major sports team can expect to plan with that in the picture. I think it holds the sport back.

Our major sports have tiers, from top-dollar professional to 2nd tier (still decently-paid full-ti e professional) to semi-pro. The teams don’t move between leagues, but leagues expand and accept new cities, where markets are large enough to support a team, and owners willing to pay a hefty entrance fee. 
 

i was hoping Super League was a major professional sport. I still hope it can become one, and I still think TWP can help that happen.

Hi John WP Fan.  In the UK we have had around one hundred years of P&R across sports.  It is extremely difficult to convey the dread, the fear, the despair when your team is relegated or the exhilaration, the excitement the bursting pride when your team gets promoted.

But, and it is a big BUT.  IMHO only football (or soccer to you John) has the inbuilt resilience, and money, that can accommodate a team being relegated whereby that team can hold onto the majority of its squad and in most cases ride out the drop in income.

Rugby League in the UK has had relegation continuously for 45 years.  Before the advent of Super League in 1996, the game - apart from Wigan, and a few players scattered around other clubs - was semi-pro.  Players were on a small salary with win/loss bonuses being paid as well.  Therefore if a team got relegated the Club retained most of its players because in a perverse manner those players would receive similar if not better pay by winning more games in the Second Division than on  losing pay when their club was relegated from the First Division.  Players worked full time, paid their mortgage, fed their family and money earned from Rugby League was seen as an additional, but very welcomed bonus. So prior to the introduction of Super League everything worked well and P&R was firmly entrenched, accepted and eagerly looked forward to.

However, since 1996 the influx of money via SKY meant that all SL teams became fully professional.  Players became totally reliant on their contract.  Clubs that could manage relegation with little affect pre 1996 realised that relegation could be a financial disaster.  Clubs brought in overseas players (as Harry pointed out a few days ago) in an effort to stay in SL at the expense of young players.  Clubs cut back on off-field operations to put every penny into their squad.   Some clubs over extended themselves and some relegated clubs went into near oblivion.  But people still wanted P&R.

Relegation proved disastrous for clubs as they had to offload many players including their prized assets.  My club, Castleford Tigers, endured 4 seasons in which they had to dismantle and create 4 different squads to cope with 2 relegations and 2 promotions over 4 years.  In each promotion year the club gambled and it paid off but the reality was that the club was one year from going bust if promotion was not achieved.  At one point the club was 30 minutes from administration.  “Sod it if a club goes bust” they say “It’s their fault” and if players have to go part time and find work elsewhere “we’ll it is their fault for getting relegated”.  But people still demanded P&R.

As I stated previously only football, with the billions it has received since 1992 appears to have the capacity to continue with P&R but even then the takes of Leeds United, Portsmouth, Coventry, Bolton, Wigan, Crystal Palace, Southampton, Ipswich, Leicester and QPR have all gone into administration whilst at some point being a First Division/Premier League club and over extending prior to relegation.  And this is the world game with the Premier League being the richest in the world.  But money doesn’t defeat the stupidity of owners.

However, I totally understand Supporters from non-SL clubs wanting promotion, just as I did when Cas got relegated.  I would have been heartbroken if Cas were told that they were excluded from the top table.  I would have tried to look at the situation from a glass half full perspective but that may have been beyond me.

So P&R.  Sport as a whole has to evolve to meet the change in both the sporting and social environment in which it operates.  Therefore the Challenge for the leaders of RL is to decide which model will grow the game.  It maybe that it is agreed that the retention of P&R is the way forward or it may be that another model is decided upon.  The bottom line is that the game must grow or it might slowly revert to semi-pro.  If anyone on this site suggests going back to semi-pro is the answer then that is a slap in the face of everyone that has been involved in the game since 1895.

I have already grabbed my tin hat in anticipation of responses.

 

[GUBRATS]

5 hours ago, John WP Fan said:

Relegating all 11 other teams would make for a rather uninteresting league!

More seriously, yes. I’m suggesting they get the same deal as Catalans.

P&R is completely foreign to us here, and I do not understand how a major sports team can expect to plan with that in the picture. I think it holds the sport back.

Our major sports have tiers, from top-dollar professional to 2nd tier (still decently-paid full-ti e professional) to semi-pro. The teams don’t move between leagues, but leagues expand and accept new cities, where markets are large enough to support a team, and owners willing to pay a hefty entrance fee. 
 

i was hoping Super League was a major professional sport. I still hope it can become one, and I still think TWP can help that happen.

Who funds your second tier clubs to full time operation ?

[Robin Evans]

2 hours ago, Big Picture said:

 There's only way RL in the northern hemisphere could have a major pro league and that's for someone to create a brand new league which operates outside the constraints which hold back both the RFL and SL.

Agreed. In doing so your "new organisation" may go down a route that will end my interest in the game. But I do believe the strategic management of the game should be wrestled away from club chairs.

 

[GUBRATS]

9 minutes ago, Robin Evans said:

Agreed. In doing so your "new organisation" may go down a route that will end my interest in the game. But I do believe the strategic management of the game should be wrestled away from club chairs.

 

Unfortunately for BP , that ' someone ' doesn't exist Robin , and never will , the bottom line is it would require a broadcaster to demand it , which in a way they did in 1995 ,  but as usual it requires everybody to give up their participation in it , and as we know , everybody wants the sport to expand and grow , as long as their club is part of it , so fine , let's have a totally new top tier , with no Wigan , no Leeds , no Saints , no Wire , no teams playing at any of those stadiums , and all those clubs playing in the new second tier , providing players to the new SDL 

I await in anticipation ?

[Robin Evans]

14 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Unfortunately for BP , that ' someone ' doesn't exist Robin , and never will , the bottom line is it would require a broadcaster to demand it , which in a way they did in 1995 ,  but as usual it requires everybody to give up their participation in it , and as we know , everybody wants the sport to expand and grow , as long as their club is part of it , so fine , let's have a totally new top tier , with no Wigan , no Leeds , no Saints , no Wire , no teams playing at any of those stadiums , and all those clubs playing in the new second tier , providing players to the new SDL 

I await in anticipation ?

Quite correct Steve.

I can just hear adelaide tiger's cohort of cas fans...after being relegated the drawbridge comes up leaving them stranded down here in the sludge to make way for Toulouse or Valencia....

They would be so made up for the game. 

The game needs to move away from the self interests of club chairs. 

Yes, I do recognise the irony in my comment..... 

[Tommygilf]

Player's union now onside

[Tommygilf]

42 minutes ago, SL17 said:

Send them to L1 and give them central funding. Plus a £150k salary cap max.

I assume you wanted the same for Leigh after their funding was unilaterally withdrawn?

[Adelaide Tiger]

1 hour ago, Robin Evans said:

Quite correct Steve.

I can just hear adelaide tiger's cohort of cas fans...after being relegated the drawbridge comes up leaving them stranded down here in the sludge to make way for Toulouse or Valencia....

They would be so made up for the game. 

The game needs to move away from the self interests of club chairs. 

Yes, I do recognise the irony in my comment..... 

Good evening Robin,

Obviously you do not know me.  I have said many times over the years on this site in similar debate with Parksider that if Cas missed out through through a transparent selection process then I could live with Cas playing in a lower tier.

Also I would be made up if the new model succeeded in delivering a global sport

The difference between you and I is that I would continue to support my club in any way possible unlike you who have said that you would walk away from your team.

Anyway time to go to the pub.

[Harry Stottle]

7 hours ago, John WP Fan said:

Relegating all 11 other teams would make for a rather uninteresting league!

More seriously, yes. I’m suggesting they get the same deal as Catalans.

P&R is completely foreign to us here, and I do not understand how a major sports team can expect to plan with that in the picture. I think it holds the sport back.

Our major sports have tiers, from top-dollar professional to 2nd tier (still decently-paid full-ti e professional) to semi-pro. The teams don’t move between leagues, but leagues expand and accept new cities, where markets are large enough to support a team, and owners willing to pay a hefty entrance fee. 
 

i was hoping Super League was a major professional sport. I still hope it can become one, and I still think TWP can help that happen.

Not many sports this side of the pond are bigger than the English Football League, 4 divisions and on the field success or failure qualifies for the transfer of clubs between divisions, and lots more sports adopt the same. 

This is were we differ John, P&R is the absolute norm here and quite honestly I don't care what is done in other countries in whatever sport that is highlighted, the thrill of the chase the despondency of defeat or relegation highlights the senses, being a TWP fan  you have suffered both in the last couple of years if you suggest that you did not find those experiences exiting I quite frankly would not believe you. 

Had this season not been interrupted then when the Wolfpack returned and playing at home and knowing that they need to win games to avoid 'the drop' can you not see how much more you would have been involved watching the game, feeling all the tackles, making the hits etc, scoring the tries and kicking the goals, and you would swop that for standing/sitting observing a game of no consequence just going through the motions were victory or defeat carries the same meaning, dull, dull and dull!

My club has been on both sides and I wouldn't have it any other way, I don't want to be the best club in the second division nor do I want to be in a sutuation in the division above were results don't matter if we are at the threat of jeopardy, I wouldn't attend, sport has to be competitive or it ceases to be sport.

And quite honestly, I do find it a bit condescending and patronising that there is a collective call from Canadian fan's having been accepted into the fold they want to change the rules to suit themselves, heat, kitchen and scarper comes to mind.

 

[Harry Stottle]

13 hours ago, Kayakman said:

It would only be true and just Harry...after all that we have been through!

Have you picked up some 'magic mushrooms' when out foraging K'man?

[Harry Stottle]

5 hours ago, Big Picture said:

SL isn't a major professional league though, the whole Wolfpack exercise has exposed it as a small time minor league which for many reasons can never be more than that.  There's only way RL in the northern hemisphere could have a major pro league and that's for someone to create a brand new league which operates outside the constraints which hold back both the RFL and SL.

Why are you hanging around BP, you are not happy with how the game is run, and sorry for saying it this way but your dream of a Inter-continental Big City League will never happen.