Harry Stottle Posted September 8, 2020 Share Posted September 8, 2020 19 minutes ago, Adelaide Tiger said: Good evening Robin, Obviously you do not know me. I have said many times over the years on this site in similar debate with Parksider that if Cas missed out through through a transparent selection process then I could live with Cas playing in a lower tier. Also I would be made up if the new model succeeded in delivering a global sport The difference between you and I is that I would continue to support my club in any way possible unlike you who have said that you would walk away from your team. Anyway time to go to the pub. Where precisely are you located AT, just wondering if your support is by proxy or actually in the flesh, just curios that's all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Evans Posted September 8, 2020 Share Posted September 8, 2020 25 minutes ago, Adelaide Tiger said: Good evening Robin, Obviously you do not know me. I have said many times over the years on this site in similar debate with Parksider that if Cas missed out through through a transparent selection process then I could live with Cas playing in a lower tier. Also I would be made up if the new model succeeded in delivering a global sport The difference between you and I is that I would continue to support my club in any way possible unlike you who have said that you would walk away from your team. Anyway time to go to the pub. Good morning cocker. In my previous post I did mention "your cohort" rather than you yourself. Anecdotal evidence would suggest there would be much weeping and gnashing of teeth emanating from Airedale should cas ever be denied a licence.. A game ran in this way holds no interest for me. Given the drop off of spectators in the teir below SL last time licencing was around, I guess a substantial number felt the same way, which is sad but understandable to me at least. It all seems rather pointless. And I don't trust the games management to apply any kind of transparency. Again, that's just me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kayakman Posted September 8, 2020 Share Posted September 8, 2020 44 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said: Have you picked up some 'magic mushrooms' when out foraging K'man? I'm pretty sure they only grow in BC (British Columbia) Harry....Ahh...sorry....BC and Leigh I see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John WP Fan Posted September 8, 2020 Share Posted September 8, 2020 5 hours ago, GUBRATS said: Who funds your second tier clubs to full time operation ? Good question. In hockey, the major league teams each have a hierarchy of minor-league teams. Minor-league teams are either owned by their parent club, or they have an affiliation agreement. For example, the NHL's Toronto Maple Leafs own the Toronto Marlies (AHL, fully-professional, full-time, average salary close to $US 100,000/season) and the Newfoundland Growlers (ECHL, fully-professional, average salary around $US 50,000). There are a few semi-pro leagues below that. Players move up & down between the leagues based on the needs of the parent team. Locally-owned teams get salaries paid by the parent club and make their own money from ticket sales, food/drink and merchandise. Many AHL games are televised, so there is TV money as well. In baseball there is a similar hierarchy, though the major leagues have imposed a restructuring this year to reduce the number of teams and associated expenses, which will bankrupt some independent teams. The short answer is that in the major sports here, there is so much money generated at the top level (and even at the second tier) that a major league team could fund a hierarchy of development teams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIWIT Posted September 8, 2020 Share Posted September 8, 2020 6 minutes ago, John WP Fan said: Good question. In hockey, the major league teams each have a hierarchy of minor-league teams. Minor-league teams are either owned by their parent club, or they have an affiliation agreement. For example, the NHL's Toronto Maple Leafs own the Toronto Marlies (AHL, fully-professional, full-time, average salary close to $US 100,000/season) and the Newfoundland Growlers (ECHL, fully-professional, average salary around $US 50,000). There are a few semi-pro leagues below that. Players move up & down between the leagues based on the needs of the parent team. Locally-owned teams get salaries paid by the parent club and make their own money from ticket sales, food/drink and merchandise. Many AHL games are televised, so there is TV money as well. In baseball there is a similar hierarchy, though the major leagues have imposed a restructuring this year to reduce the number of teams and associated expenses, which will bankrupt some independent teams. The short answer is that in the major sports here, there is so much money generated at the top level (and even at the second tier) that a major league team could fund a hierarchy of development teams. Most Brits have no idea of the amount of money sports in North America generate or how they work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John WP Fan Posted September 8, 2020 Share Posted September 8, 2020 3 hours ago, Harry Stottle said: Not many sports this side of the pond are bigger than the English Football League, 4 divisions and on the field success or failure qualifies for the transfer of clubs between divisions, and lots more sports adopt the same. This is were we differ John, P&R is the absolute norm here and quite honestly I don't care what is done in other countries in whatever sport that is highlighted, the thrill of the chase the despondency of defeat or relegation highlights the senses, being a TWP fan you have suffered both in the last couple of years if you suggest that you did not find those experiences exiting I quite frankly would not believe you. Had this season not been interrupted then when the Wolfpack returned and playing at home and knowing that they need to win games to avoid 'the drop' can you not see how much more you would have been involved watching the game, feeling all the tackles, making the hits etc, scoring the tries and kicking the goals, and you would swop that for standing/sitting observing a game of no consequence just going through the motions were victory or defeat carries the same meaning, dull, dull and dull! My club has been on both sides and I wouldn't have it any other way, I don't want to be the best club in the second division nor do I want to be in a sutuation in the division above were results don't matter if we are at the threat of jeopardy, I wouldn't attend, sport has to be competitive or it ceases to be sport. And quite honestly, I do find it a bit condescending and patronising that there is a collective call from Canadian fan's having been accepted into the fold they want to change the rules to suit themselves, heat, kitchen and scarper comes to mind. Hey Harry, I did not mean any of that to be condescending or patronizing. I was simply thinking about how different the sporting cultures are between our two homes, and mainly thinking from the point of view of an investor, and what they would need to make their investment sound. Of course I found the 2 million pound games exciting/heart-breaking/anxious! I am not saying that P&R doesn't make things interesting! And yes, there are some meaningless games played in the leagues here, just as there are still with P&R, involving teams fighting for neither a playoff spot or to avoid the bottom. I didn't know the word "scarper". I think you were alluding to the phrase "If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen"? We like the heat, and we would like to help spruce up the kitchen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adelaide Tiger Posted September 8, 2020 Share Posted September 8, 2020 3 hours ago, Harry Stottle said: Where precisely are you located AT, just wondering if your support is by proxy or actually in the flesh, just curios that's all? Good evening Harry. Ooohhhh! You are being a bit naughty asking where I live as you know Adelaide gives the game away. Or are you dyslexic and think I mean Airedale which is a suburb of Cas? I can only assume that you are having a cheap shot by insinuating that because I live in Adelaide I should not have an opinion about R.L. in the UK. FYI I started watching Cas around 1972 as an 8 year old with my Dad. I started being a junior season ticket holder around 1976 and remained a season ticket holder till 2006 when we migrated to Adelaide. Therefore I have invested 34 years watching the team and 14 years following them from afar. I am still in the weekly lottery, a member of the Supporters Club and buy merchandise as do the other 3 members of the family. Please let me know if this is enough to enable me to make comment on R.L. in the UK, or has my decision to give my two daughters a better opportunity in life automatically barred me from any discussion on the subject. P.S. I have looked at your poster name and if you really are Aristotle do you still live in Greece Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Evans Posted September 8, 2020 Share Posted September 8, 2020 4 minutes ago, Adelaide Tiger said: Good evening Harry. Ooohhhh! You are being a bit naughty asking where I live as you know Adelaide gives the game away. Or are you dyslexic and think I mean Airedale which is a suburb of Cas? I can only assume that you are having a cheap shot by insinuating that because I live in Adelaide I should not have an opinion about R.L. in the UK. FYI I started watching Cas around 1972 as an 8 year old with my Dad. I started being a junior season ticket holder around 1976 and remained a season ticket holder till 2006 when we migrated to Adelaide. Therefore I have invested 34 years watching the team and 14 years following them from afar. I am still in the weekly lottery, a member of the Supporters Club and buy merchandise as do the other 3 members of the family. Please let me know if this is enough to enable me to make comment on R.L. in the UK, or has my decision to give my two daughters a better opportunity in life automatically barred me from any discussion on the subject. P.S. I have looked at your poster name and if you really are Aristotle do you still live in Greece You're not called Lonsdale are you by any chance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
17 stone giant Posted September 8, 2020 Share Posted September 8, 2020 8 hours ago, Adelaide Tiger said: However, since 1996 the influx of money via SKY meant that all SL teams became fully professional. Players became totally reliant on their contract. Clubs that could manage relegation with little affect pre 1996 realised that relegation could be a financial disaster. Clubs brought in overseas players (as Harry pointed out a few days ago) in an effort to stay in SL at the expense of young players. Clubs cut back on off-field operations to put every penny into their squad. Some clubs over extended themselves and some relegated clubs went into near oblivion. But people still wanted P&R. Relegation proved disastrous for clubs as they had to offload many players including their prized assets. My club, Castleford Tigers, endured 4 seasons in which they had to dismantle and create 4 different squads to cope with 2 relegations and 2 promotions over 4 years. In each promotion year the club gambled and it paid off but the reality was that the club was one year from going bust if promotion was not achieved. At one point the club was 30 minutes from administration. “Sod it if a club goes bust” they say “It’s their fault” and if players have to go part time and find work elsewhere “we’ll it is their fault for getting relegated”. But people still demanded P&R. Firstly, I thought your post was excellent. It explained everything very well for an outsider like me. Would it not be possible to have P and R but at the same time introduce other rules and systems aimed at targeting some of the problems associated with it? For example, I don't know if RL has ever had "parachute payments" for relegated clubs, to give them a bit of support when they do get relegated. Could you also maybe have a requirement that clubs play a certain number of young players in a match, so that they cannot neglect that aspect of things? I understand that tinkering with these sorts of things also has downsides, but I'm just asking if a way can be found to get the best out of P and R, whilst avoiding as many of the downsides as possible. In terms of football, one of the problems always is that if you change something in your country, there is a risk that players, investors, global fans will switch to supporting a different club and league. So, for example, if English football (e.g. The Premier League) tried to introduce a wage cap and other measures aimed at making sure clubs behave sensibly financially, there is a chance that some people (especially players) will just go to Italy or Spain and get paid more there instead. That often prevents things from happening, because administrators obviously don't want to see their league plummet in terms of popularity and importance. So they don't ever address the problems. I don't, however, see that as the case so much in RL. Apart from Australia, there isn't another league for everyone to go to if they don't like the way that British RL is structured. So, a bit like with the NFL, I would have thought that RL in this country has quite a good opportunity to make whatever changes it needs - providing that it can agree amongst itself what it wants to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Evans Posted September 8, 2020 Share Posted September 8, 2020 6 minutes ago, 17 stone giant said: providing that it can agree amongst itself what it wants to do. Oh stop it now won't you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adelaide Tiger Posted September 8, 2020 Share Posted September 8, 2020 4 hours ago, Robin Evans said: Good morning cocker. In my previous post I did mention "your cohort" rather than you yourself. Anecdotal evidence would suggest there would be much weeping and gnashing of teeth emanating from Airedale should cas ever be denied a licence.. A game ran in this way holds no interest for me. Given the drop off of spectators in the teir below SL last time licencing was around, I guess a substantial number felt the same way, which is sad but understandable to me at least. It all seems rather pointless. And I don't trust the games management to apply any kind of transparency. Again, that's just me Evening Robin. Much weeping and gnashing in Cas ... well I will have you know that us from Cas never cry ... well unless the giro is late and as for gnashing of teeth ... well the only reason that CSI Airedale was never commissioned is that the pathology element would be redundant as bodies could not identified through lack of teeth. I still have many mates in Airedale as I Iived there and in Townsville most of my life and went to Airedale High. Some of them are still insisting that the season should be scrapped and haven’t the brain cells to realise that Cas would suffer through SKY withholding money. Look, in an ideal world, I would want P&R to continue. If the RFL came out with a 5-10 year plan to create 2 full time leagues with similar funding thereby giving promoted or relegated clubs the opportunity to compete without over extending themselves then I would support that. But I do not believe the RFL have a clue how to do this. EDIT- Robin what does your reference to Lonsdale mean in your later post? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Picture Posted September 8, 2020 Share Posted September 8, 2020 7 hours ago, Harry Stottle said: Why are you hanging around BP, you are not happy with how the game is run, and sorry for saying it this way but your dream of a Inter-continental Big City League will never happen. Because I love the sport and have for going on 25 years now. Like most others here I hate seeing it slowly fall further and further behind other sports here in the northern hemisphere. Unlike you and they, I've come to understand that no answer to that problem can be found within the game's existing structure in the UK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUBRATS Posted September 8, 2020 Share Posted September 8, 2020 4 hours ago, John WP Fan said: Good question. In hockey, the major league teams each have a hierarchy of minor-league teams. Minor-league teams are either owned by their parent club, or they have an affiliation agreement. For example, the NHL's Toronto Maple Leafs own the Toronto Marlies (AHL, fully-professional, full-time, average salary close to $US 100,000/season) and the Newfoundland Growlers (ECHL, fully-professional, average salary around $US 50,000). There are a few semi-pro leagues below that. Players move up & down between the leagues based on the needs of the parent team. Locally-owned teams get salaries paid by the parent club and make their own money from ticket sales, food/drink and merchandise. Many AHL games are televised, so there is TV money as well. In baseball there is a similar hierarchy, though the major leagues have imposed a restructuring this year to reduce the number of teams and associated expenses, which will bankrupt some independent teams. The short answer is that in the major sports here, there is so much money generated at the top level (and even at the second tier) that a major league team could fund a hierarchy of development teams. So it is feeder based , do the NHL run reserves of any kind or is that soley what the lower tiers are used for ? Do these clubs get decent attendances ? , Ie could they support themselves without the parent club ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldbear Posted September 8, 2020 Share Posted September 8, 2020 7 hours ago, Robin Evans said: And I don't trust the games management to apply any kind of transparency. Again, that's just me This is my whole issue every time there’s some form of structural change, no transparency means no level playing field, so it’s not just you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldbear Posted September 8, 2020 Share Posted September 8, 2020 4 minutes ago, GUBRATS said: So it is feeder based , do the NHL run reserves of any kind or is that soley what the lower tiers are used for ? Do these clubs get decent attendances ? , Ie could they support themselves without the parent club ? The lower tiers are basically the reserves. I wouldn’t have thought any lower tier club could fully support itself without its parent, certainly not to pay the wages John quoted. It all went very bad for Abbotsford Heat when Vancouver Canucks dissolved their arrangement a few years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scubby Posted September 8, 2020 Share Posted September 8, 2020 7 minutes ago, GUBRATS said: So it is feeder based , do the NHL run reserves of any kind or is that soley what the lower tiers are used for ? Do these clubs get decent attendances ? , Ie could they support themselves without the parent club ? Look yourself it is a huge league in its own right https://theahl.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUBRATS Posted September 8, 2020 Share Posted September 8, 2020 3 hours ago, Adelaide Tiger said: Evening Robin. Much weeping and gnashing in Cas ... well I will have you know that us from Cas never cry ... well unless the giro is late and as for gnashing of teeth ... well the only reason that CSI Airedale was never commissioned is that the pathology element would be redundant as bodies could not identified through lack of teeth. I still have many mates in Airedale as I Iived there and in Townsville most of my life and went to Airedale High. Some of them are still insisting that the season should be scrapped and haven’t the brain cells to realise that Cas would suffer through SKY withholding money. Look, in an ideal world, I would want P&R to continue. If the RFL came out with a 5-10 year plan to create 2 full time leagues with similar funding thereby giving promoted or relegated clubs the opportunity to compete without over extending themselves then I would support that. But I do not believe the RFL have a clue how to do this. EDIT- Robin what does your reference to Lonsdale mean in your later post? CAS did well to retain around 80% of its support when they were relegated , but I doubt they'd retain anything like that if they found themselves outside a ring fenced top tier , it doesn't directly affect you , you still wouldn't be able to attend the games , you'd probably still lose interest as well though as your opportunities to watch them on the TV would also decline drastically I like Robin and Harry would drop off the regular attending if ' locked out ' , I did so last time going from 95% home and probably 70% away , to just the big games ( knock out , ie , a consequence of losing ) and the occasional day trip for a beer to my favourite away venues Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Evans Posted September 8, 2020 Share Posted September 8, 2020 4 minutes ago, GUBRATS said: and the occasional day trip for a beer to my favourite away venues That'll be top house in fev then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUBRATS Posted September 8, 2020 Share Posted September 8, 2020 23 minutes ago, Scubby said: Look yourself it is a huge league in its own right https://theahl.com/ That link doesn't tell me much really , how much do they depend on parent clubs ? , What sort of attendances do they get ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael1812 Posted September 8, 2020 Share Posted September 8, 2020 17 minutes ago, GUBRATS said: That link doesn't tell me much really , how much do they depend on parent clubs ? , What sort of attendances do they get ? https://hockey.sigmagfx.com/compseason/ahl/1920 Highest average attendance by club was 9000, lowest was 2700. Average across the 31 teams was 5500. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUBRATS Posted September 8, 2020 Share Posted September 8, 2020 1 minute ago, Michael1812 said: https://hockey.sigmagfx.com/compseason/ahl/1920 Highest average attendance by club was 9000, lowest was 2700. Average across the 31 teams was 5500. Quite good for an indoor sport really , it makes you wonder why they'd want to be another teams reserves ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael1812 Posted September 8, 2020 Share Posted September 8, 2020 9 minutes ago, GUBRATS said: Quite good for an indoor sport really , it makes you wonder why they'd want to be another teams reserves ? These cities aren’t going to get NHL club, so this is the next best thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davo5 Posted September 8, 2020 Share Posted September 8, 2020 29 minutes ago, GUBRATS said: Quite good for an indoor sport really , it makes you wonder why they'd want to be another teams reserves ? Works for Fev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bentleyman Posted September 8, 2020 Share Posted September 8, 2020 1 hour ago, Robin Evans said: That'll be top house in fev then? Thought The Top House was Odslum & The White House was Fev ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Evans Posted September 8, 2020 Share Posted September 8, 2020 33 minutes ago, bentleyman said: Thought The Top House was Odslum & The White House was Fev ? The white house certainly is fev. The featherstone Hotel at the top of station Lane is known locally as the top house. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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