PhilCarrington Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 8 hours ago, TIWIT said: Are you attempting to differentiate Super League from its member clubs? I know they are separate corporate entities but I'm also pretty darn sure each club has a vote regarding matters such as the terms whereby TWP enters the League. Isn't that what the 11 teams are deciding now? Yes, because the comment I replied to was criticising clubs. You've then replied to my comment by writing about the treatment of TWP in the MPG. You claim have more information on that than I do, but no indication of what the CLUBS did to TWP in the MPG. Perhaps you could explain. The issue of whether TWP will pay its debts to fellow member clubs still remains unanswered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silverback Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 7 hours ago, TheReaper said: It the league truly wanted Canadian talent to be developed, all teams would need to have a minimum number of Canadian players. Otherwise they are hindering one teams competitiveness unfairly. More players would be developed that way too,and fairly. How do they find enough players to do this,Toronto only managed one?, got to admit what a decent idea it would be to send some players over here on loan maybe to get some skills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Stottle Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 4 hours ago, ShropshireBull said: Yep, let's take them in turn. You've omitted the point I made that Toronto, on their own, are not bringing commercial benefits to the league. The onus is on Toronto to demonstrate that they directly lead to an increase in subscriptions to Sky , the UK based broadcaster from which Super League's money pot comes from. Toronto can't provide that evidence... because there isn't any. On their own, they cannot get a North American TV deal. That would only be possible with another team from Canada, hence where Ottawa come in. So we need to square the circle that Toronto on their own generate no TV income in the native market and would only do so if we admitted another Canadian team. However, no TV company is going to do that unless they have a guarantee that both sides will remain in Super League, which we can't do unless we ringfence you. So we have to treat you differently by giving you a benefit that UK based clubs won't have if we really want expansion to succeed. Knowing that you are guaranteed to be in the tournament year in year out grants you significant benefits in terms of player attraction as they can guarantee that whatever happens, they will get that 2 year or 3 year contact paid (unlike, well, now...) and allows the club to build long term. How is that fair to UK teams? You can offer players contracts in the knowledge they are guaranteed whereas a Wakefield, Hull KR (who way well be competing in a similar player pool) can't as they would have the risk of relegation. I wouldn't be putting you in the league for your commercial benefits now, but for the long term expansion of the player pool and growth of the game. So it would be a compromise. You get the security but you are also forced to have a minimum of say 5 Canadians in your 17 man team selection. That way, you can be competitive in the long term whilst providing security to any potential Canadian broadcaster that for 3 / 5 or however long they signed the contract to show you and Ottawa, their investment is safe and you are incentivised if you want to go from being a good team to a great one. Canada has a population of 1.76 million men aged 18-24, I'm sure you can find 1 starter and some impact players in that. So you are treated differently (in my hypothetical governance) because you are different, as your club is unviable below SL and therefore you must be incubated. Indeed the potential new owner Carlo has said "It's Super League or bust". 'Fair' would be telling you to p*ss off as you just failed to complete a season (ok, could be understandable with Covid but not the fact you owed players wages). So you would drop into the Championship and then, Toronto is done. I'm sure there's plenty on this forum who would be glad to see this happen, I am not one of those people but this needs to be done in a way that understands the realities. Therefore, giving you (Toronto and Ottawa) the security but also the responsibility to grow the game in Canada is a fair compromise. English clubs are responsible for growing the player pool here. I would also offer the same deal to a second French club to make a 14 team league. And no, I don't buy for a second that because you make up 1/12 of broadcast content you get a 12th of a UK based deal. Especially when, as mentioned, you bring nothing into that pot. Plus, this isn't a NA franchise system and even in the elite association football competition at European level, clubs receive a tv pot that is based on how much their native market brings in.Many fans of other clubs would argue that it is fair that you bring in nothing, so you get nothing. Overall, I do want to see a competitive and thriving Canadian couple in Super League, along with French sides but it has to be done for the long term. I think my way would offer Canada's long term potential to be reached in a way that is 'fair' to everyone. I think you make a good case when you say 'it's not fair to other UK clubs" in safeguarding 3 teams from relegation, you are suggesting that a team could be relegated after finishing 4 places from the bottom, do you honestly think that would ever be accepted? The division would be a shambles, one team would be bad enough under that respect in a 14 team league system as you suggest playing home and away results in 26 inconsequential fixtures each season - it simply doesn't matter if they lose - multiply that three that is 78 fixtures, also one team could manipulate results against the other teams by purposefully playing understrength teams, again multiply that by three and the opportunity for those under the threat of jeapordy to cry foul or suggest wrong doings, favouritism or devious practises have taken place would greatly increase. I cannot for one moment understand how in a structure such as a divisional system there can be two different sets of rules for different clubs pertaining to jeopardy, it goes against all sporting ethics, and ridicules the term 'competitive league' if your in it to win it, it should also be the case that you can lose it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Stottle Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 26 minutes ago, RP London said: everytime i go to a stadium... so probably about 15...just in Rugby League in the UK is that ok with you? I've also been to baseball grounds in the US, NFL grounds in the US, Ice hockey stadiums around england and the US and canada, football grounds all around the world, RL grounds in AUS, RU grounds around the world.. how about you? I have no idea on your point here.. unless you think the clubs are doing things perfectly.. which I dont think anybody would argue. You would not have seen Leigh's club shop then RP? it is not at the ground. The ground albeit half a mile from the town centre does not have many 'footfall' visitors, hence the shop is located smack bang in the town centre - as close as the inner ring in the bullseye is in the middle of the dart board - next door to the bus station and the largest car park in the town in fact it is in the market hall, well stocked and well subscribed. On Matchday's not every game mind, there is also a 'mobile' in the main carpark at the stadiums entrance. As a manufacturer yourself I should imagine you would applaud that buisness practise. Just saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RP London Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 22 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said: You would not have seen Leigh's club shop then RP? it is not at the ground. The ground albeit half a mile from the town centre does not have many 'footfall' visitors, hence the shop is located smack bang in the town centre - as close as the inner ring in the bullseye is in the middle of the dart board - next door to the bus station and the largest car park in the town in fact it is in the market hall, well stocked and well subscribed. On Matchday's not every game mind, there is also a 'mobile' in the main carpark at the stadiums entrance. As a manufacturer yourself I should imagine you would applaud that buisness practise. Just saying. i've never been to Leigh full stop if my memory serves.. Thats a great set up and hope it works well. However, as pointed out to Gubrats i have already said some clubs do this well.. but some do not.. some do bits of it well (having a shop in the right place is only the start.. ) and some do not.. Across the board i dont think as a sport we do this well, i also dont think we make the most of what we CAN do.. and i have given examples of that.. I think i have been pretty good with the posts i have put in of even giving examples of what more could be done.. i've not gone into specific clubs or specific things because it is a general discussion starting with a grooming product.. but its not just about the merchandise you see in a club shop either, which i have said a few times. If all the clubs are looking at is the club shop then that is very much part of the problem IMHO, look at what people outside the club shop may want to stock, look at what other companies could get your brand into for no effort on your part etc etc etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIWIT Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 47 minutes ago, PhilCarrington said: Yes, because the comment I replied to was criticising clubs. You've then replied to my comment by writing about the treatment of TWP in the MPG. You claim have more information on that than I do, but no indication of what the CLUBS did to TWP in the MPG. Perhaps you could explain. The issue of whether TWP will pay its debts to fellow member clubs still remains unanswered. Your logic makes absolutely no sense. Super League is a corporate entity comprised of its member clubs. It runs the game on a daily basis. But it is the member clubs who actually call the shots. It was they collectively who essential)y blackmailed TWP into accepting their terms at last year's MPG. It was they who divied up TWP's share of the TV money. As for TWP paying its debts to the other clubs I confess I have no idea what you're referring to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Stottle Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 2 minutes ago, TIWIT said: Your logic makes absolutely no sense. Super League is a corporate entity comprised of its member clubs. It runs the game on a daily basis. But it is the member clubs who actually call the shots. It was they collectively who essential)y blackmailed TWP into accepting their terms at last year's MPG. It was they who divied up TWP's share of the TV money. As for TWP paying its debts to the other clubs I confess I have no idea what you're referring to. Last years MPG? You mean the Championship Final? Money aside, TWP were looked upon quite favourably in the Championship play offs TIWIT, it was deemed that instead of the age old tradition of playing the final at a Neutral venue, it would be at the highest placed club. I suggested at the time, that was because the smart money would be on TWP or Toulouse or both reaching the final, so considering that the Wembley final with Catalan was the worst ever attended the RFL were feared that a scheduled final at a venue -which would have been nominated prior to the competition, would have not only been a financial disaster it would have been a total embarrassment for the sport in the press so low would have been the attendance. Yes TWP and Toulouse are loved by some over here, until it means putting your hand in your pocket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Man of Kent Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 Love the Wokeist victim culture going on here. Ottawa Spelling Matters! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whippet13 Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said: Last years MPG? You mean the Championship Final? Money aside, TWP were looked upon quite favourably in the Championship play offs TIWIT, it was deemed that instead of the age old tradition of playing the final at a Neutral venue, it would be at the highest placed club. I suggested at the time, that was because the smart money would be on TWP or Toulouse or both reaching the final, so considering that the Wembley final with Catalan was the worst ever attended the RFL were feared that a scheduled final at a venue -which would have been nominated prior to the competition, would have not only been a financial disaster it would have been a total embarrassment for the sport in the press so low would have been the attendance. Yes TWP and Toulouse are loved by some over here, until it means putting your hand in your pocket. TWP weren't "looked on quite favourably" at all then, they were just the team who ended up as beneficiaries of the RFL being skint and hedging their bets? The 1930 Wembley final was the worst attended, agree the Catalan's one was poor though and quite probably the only one held there to lose money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kayakman Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 2 hours ago, Man of Kent said: Love the Wokeist victim culture going on here. Ottawa Spelling Matters! Ohhh.... what sad times are these when some passing ruffians think that spelling no longer matters...there is a pestilence upon this forum...nothing is sacred...even though who use proper grammar and punctuation are under considerable stress when posting of the Toronto Wolfpack.... what is going on with the education system over there when grammar and proper sentence structure are thrown by the wayside in the name of anti-expansion! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RP London Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 21 minutes ago, Kayakman said: Ohhh.... what sad times are these when some passing ruffians think that spelling no longer matters...there is a pestilence upon this forum...nothing is sacred...even though who use proper grammar and punctuation are under considerable stress when posting of the Toronto Wolfpack.... what is going on with the education system over there when grammar and proper structure structure are thrown by the wayside in the name of anti-expansion! i'm assuming that ALL the mistakes in that post are deliberate Kman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Evans Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 2 hours ago, Man of Kent said: Love the Wokeist victim culture going on here. Ottawa Spelling Matters! You are a sarchy 2@...... funny!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derwent Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 4 hours ago, TIWIT said: But it is the member clubs who actually call the shots. It was they collectively who essential)y blackmailed TWP into accepting their terms at last year's MPG. It was they who divied up TWP's share of the TV money. You seem to be very adept at airbrushing history, or perhaps you are just very forgetful ? It is well documented that SL were asking Toronto for information for months in order to make a decision about admitting them should they win the play offs. It is also public knowledge and on record that Toronto failed repeatedly to provide much of the requested info and what they did actually provide was sketchy at best. So in the end SL made an offer of entry that was conditional as they had not received anything from Toronto to allow them to consider an unconditional entry. But apparently once again it is everyone’s fault but Toronto’s ! I’m not prejudiced, I hate everybody equally Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIWIT Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 1 hour ago, Derwent said: You seem to be very adept at airbrushing history, or perhaps you are just very forgetful ? It is well documented that SL were asking Toronto for information for months in order to make a decision about admitting them should they win the play offs. It is also public knowledge and on record that Toronto failed repeatedly to provide much of the requested info and what they did actually provide was sketchy at best. So in the end SL made an offer of entry that was conditional as they had not received anything from Toronto to allow them to consider an unconditional entry. But apparently once again it is everyone’s fault but Toronto’s ! You and I have such different memories of these events that there is little point in attempting to debate them. It will simply bog down to "A/not A". It's not worth the time and effort because clearly we're never going to agree. Blackmail is NOT negotiation however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 2 minutes ago, TIWIT said: You and I have such different memories of these events that there is little point in attempting to debate them. It will simply bog down to "A/not A". It's not worth the time and effort because clearly we're never going to agree. Blackmail is NOT negotiation however. A take-it-or-leave-it deal is not blackmail. You really should stop throwing accusations of blackmail around tbh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Man of Kent Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 2 hours ago, Kayakman said: P.S. The Wolfpack kneels to no other club... Except the 11 Super League clubs (and the Super League board & RFL). 'Please take us back, please. It'll be different this time. PLEASE! We're begging you!' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerjon Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 Have the players been paid yet? Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gooleboy Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 1 hour ago, Derwent said: You seem to be very adept at airbrushing history, or perhaps you are just very forgetful ? It is well documented that SL were asking Toronto for information for months in order to make a decision about admitting them should they win the play offs. It is also public knowledge and on record that Toronto failed repeatedly to provide much of the requested info and what they did actually provide was sketchy at best. So in the end SL made an offer of entry that was conditional as they had not received anything from Toronto to allow them to consider an unconditional entry. But apparently once again it is everyone’s fault but Toronto’s ! As usual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUBRATS Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 17 hours ago, yipyee said: If clubs from thousands of miles away can sell merchandise in leigh (and other uk towns) then what is leigh doing wrong? And dont say yeah but but but they have money, theres a reason they have money..... You are really difficult to debate with , what do you suggest ' real ' sales should be for a Championship club ? The more you spout things without answering questions about the things you spout the dafter you look You suggested clubs don't sell clothing that could be worn outside of a game , they do , you suggest clubs don't have ' real ' levels of sales , and when questioned you just get personal and try to insult using the club of the person asking you a quite reasonable question Pointless trying to engage with on any actual point of discussion , sad really Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIWIT Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 58 minutes ago, Dave T said: A take-it-or-leave-it deal is not blackmail. You really should stop throwing accusations of blackmail around tbh. Perhaps not in the legal definition. It was more like Marlon Brando's negotiation tactics in the Godfather - make an offer that can't be refused. Although TWP could have refused of course. Cancelled the game and stayed in the Championship. Which in hindsight would probably have been for the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIWIT Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 37 minutes ago, gingerjon said: Have the players been paid yet? Paid by who? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 3 minutes ago, TIWIT said: Perhaps not in the legal definition. It was more like Marlon Brando's negotiation tactics in the Godfather - make an offer that can't be refused. Although TWP could have refused of course. Cancelled the game and stayed in the Championship. Which in hindsight would probably have been for the best. It could be refused though. If it was a terrible offer, it could have been refused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUBRATS Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 8 hours ago, RP London said: everytime i go to a stadium... so probably about 15...just in Rugby League in the UK is that ok with you? I've also been to baseball grounds in the US, NFL grounds in the US, Ice hockey stadiums around england and the US and canada, football grounds all around the world, RL grounds in AUS, RU grounds around the world.. how about you? I have no idea on your point here.. unless you think the clubs are doing things perfectly.. which I dont think anybody would argue. I haven't said the clubs are perfect , but they do what they can to sell to the customers they have , they could spend plenty more and be left with plenty on the shelves , in what way would that help the clubs ? I will pm you with something later that I suggested to the lower tier clubs about a decade ago on this very subject Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIWIT Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 33 minutes ago, Dave T said: It could be refused though. If it was a terrible offer, it could have been refused. No ifs ands or buts, from TWP's side it was a terrible deal. From the SL side it was a fantastic deal -free trips/accommodation to Toronto and they get to divy up TWP's TV money. Christmas comes early! If you were in Argyle's position would you have refused? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 1 minute ago, TIWIT said: No ifs ands or buts, from TWP's side it was a terrible deal. From the SL side it was a fantastic deal -free trips/accommodation to Toronto and they get to divy up TWP's TV money. Christmas comes early! If you were in Argyle's position would you have refused? As it was the deal that TWP themselves had sold their admission on in Year 1, then I don't see why it suddenly became a horrendously expensive and prohibitive deal for TWP. TWP had never had TV money, had always paid additional SL costs, this wasn't a new deal that was horrendous. I understand the arguments about fairness etc. but that is a matter of opinion. Surely TWP had additional income streams in SL in year 4 versus the lower leagues? I get the argument about fairness, but this hasn't been the thing that has killed off an alleged billionaire's involvement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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