Tommygilf Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 1 hour ago, Dave T said: A take-it-or-leave-it deal is not blackmail. You really should stop throwing accusations of blackmail around tbh. Should get on the brexit negotiating team! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheReaper Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 13 hours ago, ShropshireBull said: And no, I don't buy for a second that because you make up 1/12 of broadcast content you get a 12th of a UK based deal. Especially when, as mentioned, you bring nothing into that pot. Plus, this isn't a NA franchise system and even in the elite association football competition at European level, clubs receive a tv pot that is based on how much their native market brings in.Many fans of other clubs would argue that it is fair that you bring in nothing, so you get nothing. Overall, I do want to see a competitive and thriving Canadian couple in Super League, along with French sides but it has to be done for the long term. I think my way would offer Canada's long term potential to be reached in a way that is 'fair' to everyone. I trimmed most out just not copy a long post just for ease of browsing. I actually do agree with you on protecting teams, my own ideal would be for a 16 team league, with 2 Canadian and 2 French teams. English clubs would be placated by receiving an "extra" spot back up to 12. I wouldn't necessarily define it as "protected teams", however, but as "defined slots" per country, with each country free to determine their own entries. So the English could define theirs as the top 12 from their pyramid system, and the bottom of 12 being replaced by the top of their next tier. Canada would be free to directly place in TWP and the Aces since there are no other options. France could do the same, or require the lower of Catalan or Toulouse to playoff against the Elite 1 winner. Up to all of them I would give the power of this decision to governing bodies, i.e. CRLA. That way if Canada were to ever develop it's own league they could have that winner enter if so desired. This has already been done somewhat in Super Rugby in the past with the South African entries. Where I still don't agree is a forced quota of players. I'm alright with there being different types of organizations off the field - for example the Pro14 having provinces, clubs, regions etc all run differently - on the field it should be level. But, if a modest quota was the price of coming to an agreement then that could be alright. But modest, starting with 3 I think would be reasonable. But there is another part to my objection to it. Whatever condition forced on a team, whether it be player quotas or anything else, if they don't want to do it for their own reasons, then all you'll get is the minimum lip service. Of course it's beneficial for TWP to find, develop, and play Canadians. But is it more beneficial to them than winning? Does it sell more tickets than winning? It may or may not, and their own internal math would guide that for them. My opinion is that they should be left as free as possible to run their business in the way they see fit. They need to realize for themselves that it increases buy-in from fans, increases potential future players, etc, and that is when you see the honest effort put in. Regarding TV money. The potential income from further TV deals from broadcasters in France or Canada is what's on the table, and is why it is necessary to have guaranteed teams in the competition. But all members must be treated equally financially. Broadcast fee for broadcast rights is a direct transaction. None of this "who "brings" what", it's abstract at best and unprovable whatabboutism at worst. Equal contribution of content deserves equal remuneration. Whoever buys those rights in the UK, Sky or someone else, knows they are buying the rights to an international competition with international viewers. There is value in providing greater variety of teams for the UK teams to play against, there is value in reaching those viewers who are not in their country. It allows them to present a better offering to potential sponsors who may have customers in multiple countries. The same works in reverse for the broadcasters in the smaller members of the arrangement. One thing that is abundantly clear from the success of the North American sports leagues is that the more they work together as a partnership to benefit everyone, the more they do succeed. Did you know that the NFL goes as far as sharing the revenue of all merchandise not sold at the stadium? The Packers only got 1/32 of the profit from that Packers hat you see walking down the street in the UK. So all the clubs, governing bodies, and league office need to work together as partners to present the most attractive product to all potential buyers (broadcasters, sponsors, etc)), not 12/16 members member saying "we've got ours go find yours". Things like travel costs should be levelled for all clubs - pay for it all out of the central pot before distributing what's left. Use that league-wide organization to entice a better deal from a hotel chain that operates in all 3 countries. Tie that in with advertising good rates to travelling fans. Think together, act together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheReaper Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 25 minutes ago, Dave T said: As it was the deal that TWP themselves had sold their admission on in Year 1, then I don't see why it suddenly became a horrendously expensive and prohibitive deal for TWP. TWP had never had TV money, had always paid additional SL costs, this wasn't a new deal that was horrendous. I think it makes sense that they allotted for these costs for a (short) number of years, and that it would get more equitable as they rose to a level with clubs in the same realm of financial capability. And for it not to be planned to be in perpetuity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kayakman Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 1 hour ago, Man of Kent said: Except the 11 Super League clubs (and the Super League board & RFL). 'Please take us back, please. It'll be different this time. PLEASE! We're begging you!' No begging or grovelling on this end....never has been and never will be. You gotta understand that this seems to be some sort of a type of English thing...this begging and grovelling. Its rooted in history with serfdom and these Lords, estates and your old class society (obviously still practised by many over there today). The ones that couldn't take it anymore left and emigrated to places like Canada and Australia...some higher ups tried to recreate the Old World society but it never really caught. Over here we do not bow to the masters or pay rent to the Lords...we are free, but you guys can grovel all you want....its not in our DNA anymore...WE STAND! Its a take it or leave it deal from Toronto...choose and get on with it...don't wallow in it!...in a way its...well...lets just say it does not reflect kindly upon you. We call! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Man of Kent Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 18 minutes ago, Kayakman said: No begging or grovelling on this end....never has been and never will be. You gotta understand that this seems to be some sort of a type of English thing...this begging and grovelling. Its rooted in history with serfdom and these Lords, estates and your old class society (obviously still practised by many over there today). The ones that couldn't take it anymore left and emigrated to places like Canada and Australia...some higher ups tried to recreate the Old World society but it never really caught. Over here we do not bow to the masters or pay rent to the Lords...we are free, but you guys can grovel all you want....its not in our DNA anymore...WE STAND! Its a take it or leave it deal from Toronto...choose and get on with it...don't wallow in it!...in a way its...well...lets just say it does not reflect kindly upon you. We call! You’re joking! The past two weeks has seen a procession of employees past (probably owed money) and present (definitely owed money) taking the knee as they beg forgiveness for Toronto. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ELBOWSEYE Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 10 minutes ago, Man of Kent said: You’re joking! The past two weeks has seen a procession of employees past (probably owed money) and present (definitely owed money) taking the knee as they beg forgiveness for Toronto. Taking the knee is popular these days ( only joking before any abuse comes). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 41 minutes ago, TheReaper said: I think it makes sense that they allotted for these costs for a (short) number of years, and that it would get more equitable as they rose to a level with clubs in the same realm of financial capability. And for it not to be planned to be in perpetuity. Of course, but with no signed contract it is clearly just an aspiration, just like I'm sure they hoped they would be able to get a TV deal too. But, and this is the clincher, they agreed to this plan (remember they had the backing of a billionaire, huge sponsorship deals and merchandise sale far in excess of all other SL clubs if we are to believe what we are being told) and then doubled down by hiring an expensive squad, and then asking to be allowed to spend even more. So quite frankly, it is laughable for anybody to claim £1.8m broke TWP. As I say I understand the fairness point, and it is clearly something the new owner wants to address up front, but TWP broke because of poor ownership, terrible business decisions, and Covid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 36 minutes ago, Kayakman said: No begging or grovelling on this end....never has been and never will be. You gotta understand that this seems to be some sort of a type of English thing...this begging and grovelling. Its rooted in history with serfdom and these Lords, estates and your old class society (obviously still practised by many over there today). The ones that couldn't take it anymore left and emigrated to places like Canada and Australia...some higher ups tried to recreate the Old World society but it never really caught. Over here we do not bow to the masters or pay rent to the Lords...we are free, but you guys can grovel all you want....its not in our DNA anymore...WE STAND! Its a take it or leave it deal from Toronto...choose and get on with it...don't wallow in it!...in a way its...well...lets just say it does not reflect kindly upon you. We call! Funny, one of your fellow fans believes 'take it or leave it' deals are blackmail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kayakman Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 13 minutes ago, Man of Kent said: You’re joking! The past two weeks has seen a procession of employees past (probably owed money) and present (definitely owed money) taking the knee as they beg forgiveness for Toronto. You are kidding right...think about it...the vast majority of the folks you are talking about (maybe 100%) are British...my point exactly...don't beg...it reflects poorly upon you. There are better ways to deal with these problems....never beg or grovel...its UnCanadian thats for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kayakman Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 6 minutes ago, Dave T said: Funny, one of your fellow fans believes 'take it or leave it' deals are blackmail. Unknown in your culture...its called a 'squeeze play' and it comes from baseball. This is what the Wolfpack is doing...please watch the video (its short) and then you will understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 6 minutes ago, Kayakman said: Unknown in your culture...its called a 'squeeze play' and it comes from baseball. This is what the Wolfpack is doing...please watch the video (its short) and then you will understand. It must be embarrassing how you have all these tactics and things we just don't understand and you've been run ragged by Carter and Hudgell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ELBOWSEYE Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 As a sport we are very insular full of self interest so the only tactics that work with clubs like most in our leagues is were money coming their way is involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilCarrington Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 On 07/09/2020 at 20:08, Kayakman said: KNOCK...KNOCK....KNOCK...Please, Kind Sir!, just open the door A LITTLE and let us in....its cold outside...I promise we won't stay long. 1 hour ago, Kayakman said: No begging or grovelling on this end....never has been and never will be. You gotta understand that this seems to be some sort of a type of English thing...this begging and grovelling. Its rooted in history with serfdom and these Lords, estates and your old class society (obviously still practised by many over there today). The ones that couldn't take it anymore left and emigrated to places like Canada and Australia...some higher ups tried to recreate the Old World society but it never really caught. Over here we do not bow to the masters or pay rent to the Lords...we are free, but you guys can grovel all you want....its not in our DNA anymore...WE STAND! Its a take it or leave it deal from Toronto...choose and get on with it...don't wallow in it!...in a way its...well...lets just say it does not reflect kindly upon you. We call! No begging on your end ? Hmmn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertAM Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 If the SL clubs vote to deny TWP re entry to SL it will go down as a major own goal. Kiss any future expansion plans anywhere goodbye. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derwent Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 https://forty20.news/exclusive-majority-of-clubs-oppose-toronto-super-league-return/?fbclid=IwAR1YAShdNkTwnXb2D3bgyJaCM7j5lSHr-VMpfCrHE750-M2XQIDtvIZyi_I I’m not prejudiced, I hate everybody equally Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Evans Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 4 minutes ago, Derwent said: https://forty20.news/exclusive-majority-of-clubs-oppose-toronto-super-league-return/?fbclid=IwAR1YAShdNkTwnXb2D3bgyJaCM7j5lSHr-VMpfCrHE750-M2XQIDtvIZyi_I Ooops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Plow Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 12 minutes ago, RobertAM said: If the SL clubs vote to deny TWP re entry to SL it will go down as a major own goal. Kiss any future expansion plans anywhere goodbye. What’s happens to them now? What if they enter the Championship and get promoted again? Will SL let them back in? What about Ottawa? The worst thing that could happen now though is if SL stays as 11 clubs next year. We’re going backwards, always 1 step forward 2 steps back with this sport Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 8 minutes ago, Derwent said: https://forty20.news/exclusive-majority-of-clubs-oppose-toronto-super-league-return/?fbclid=IwAR1YAShdNkTwnXb2D3bgyJaCM7j5lSHr-VMpfCrHE750-M2XQIDtvIZyi_I Seems odd that they list Hudds as a 'no' and then provide a quote from them saying they are undecided. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael1812 Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 7 minutes ago, Derwent said: https://forty20.news/exclusive-majority-of-clubs-oppose-toronto-super-league-return/?fbclid=IwAR1YAShdNkTwnXb2D3bgyJaCM7j5lSHr-VMpfCrHE750-M2XQIDtvIZyi_I Based on that article’s guess of the clubs for and against TWP returning, they look like they can be put in to two categories. Those afraid of the competition that TWP could offer (possibly being relegated and loosing Sky money) and those who see a positive from the competition (a possible growth in publicity and revenues). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derwent Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 3 minutes ago, Dave T said: Seems odd that they list Hudds as a 'no' and then provide a quote from them saying they are undecided. Perhaps Huddersfield are opposed in principle but not totally decided yet until they’ve seen the proposal. I’m not prejudiced, I hate everybody equally Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 4 minutes ago, Derwent said: Perhaps Huddersfield are opposed in principle but not totally decided yet until they’ve seen the proposal. Aye, just seems a bit shoddy journalism, you can't provide a quote saying they are undecided and put them in the 'no' column, particularly when you have an undecided column. I find it odd that anyone would be in a yes column if they haven't seen the evidence, all seems a bit flaky tbh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris22 Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 It's a really tough call. On the one hand, it would be foolish to turn our backs on a new market where we have managed to get 7,000+ fans per week watching second or third division rugby league. Worse still, we go out, rugby union will swoop and take that audience. And they won't lose them. Plus, like them or lump them Toronto would add value to the TV deal. However, I understand that they cannot be readmitted without creditors being paid and significant assurances that players will not go without pay again. Then, all of their players will leave so it will be a rebuild job. If there is a points deduction, relegation is a near certainty. And would the Toronto public be put off watching their team get panned every week? I wonder if it may be better to allow Toronto to rebuild in a more sustainable year in the Championship? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertAM Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 11 minutes ago, Mr Plow said: What’s happens to them now? What if they enter the Championship and get promoted again? Will SL let them back in? What about Ottawa? The worst thing that could happen now though is if SL stays as 11 clubs next year. We’re going backwards, always 1 step forward 2 steps back with this sport This the situation - if they are denied they fold. if Ottawa win L1 in 2021 and CH in 2022 they are likely will be denied entry into SL because they wont get Sky money - the 11 want it all. If this happens NYRL will withdraw. Expansion is over and the game contracts. Well done everybody. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derwent Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 13 minutes ago, Michael1812 said: Based on that article’s guess of the clubs for and against TWP returning, they look like they can be put in to two categories. Those afraid of the competition that TWP could offer (possibly being relegated and loosing Sky money) and those who see a positive from the competition (a possible growth in publicity and revenues). Well yes but there are clubs who are struggling financially especially in the current climate. It’s a tough sell to ask them to not only give up a six figure sum but then compound that by telling them they also need to find another £40-£50k to fund their own travel and expenses to Canada, maybe double that depending on loop fixtures. Of course those clubs are going to put their own welfare first. I’m not prejudiced, I hate everybody equally Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIWIT Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 1 hour ago, Dave T said: Funny, one of your fellow fans believes 'take it or leave it' deals are blackmail. As I recall it, and I am sure most on this side of the Atlantic would agree with me, TWP agreed to pay all the travel etc. expenses for League 1 and Championship teams because those semi-pro operations could not afford it otherwise. Those were the terms negotiated with RFL prior to TWP's entrance and agreed to by all alsconcerned. But TWP also believed - or so we here were led to believe - that when TWP reached Super League those teams, being fully professional, could and would cover their own expenses. It was only in the days leading up to the Championship Final against Featherstone that the members of SL demanded that TWP continue to cover their travel costs as well. If TWP declined to do so then they would not be admitted to SL no matter what. Given such an ultimatum TWP agreed, probably figuring it would be easier to get a better deal once they were a member of SL than not. Another erroneous assumption as it turned out. Not blackmail exactly, but certainly a one-sided deal signed under duress. Also very different from the current negotiations between the new ownership group and SL. No assumptions. Each side spells out exactly what is expected. TWP is undoubtedly in a weak bargaining position but the new deal has to be a lot fairer to them than the old one. Hence take-it-or-leave-it, but we are not going to be pushed around again. I am more than willing to be corrected on any mistaken assumptions I've made but I'm pretty sure my position is the one most commonly held here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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