The General 'Toronto Wolfpack' Discussion Thread

[Dave T]

7 minutes ago, TIWIT said:

As I recall it, and I am sure most on this side of the Atlantic would agree with me, TWP agreed to pay all the travel etc. expenses for League 1 and Championship teams because those semi-pro operations could not afford it otherwise. Those were the terms negotiated with RFL prior to TWP's entrance and agreed to by all alsconcerned.

But TWP also believed - or so we here were led to believe - that when TWP reached Super League those teams, being fully professional, could and would cover their own expenses. 

It was only in the days leading up to the Championship Final against Featherstone that the members of SL demanded that TWP continue to cover their travel costs as well. If TWP declined to do so then they would not be admitted to SL no matter what. 

Given such an ultimatum TWP agreed, probably figuring it would be easier to get a better deal once they were a member of SL than not. Another erroneous assumption as it turned out. Not blackmail exactly, but certainly a one-sided deal signed under duress.

Also very different from the current negotiations between the new ownership group and SL. No assumptions. Each side spells out exactly what is expected. TWP is undoubtedly in a weak bargaining position but the new deal has to be a lot fairer to them than the old one. Hence take-it-or-leave-it, but we are not going to be pushed around again.

I am more than willing to be corrected on any mistaken assumptions I've made but I'm pretty sure my position is the one most commonly held here.

 

I'm afraid this is all just assumptions with no basis that allow you to present a poor TWP narrative - something even TWP's representatives themselves are not pushing.

Im not saying its right or wrong, because none of us know, no matter how confidently we post it. 

[LeytherRob]

26 minutes ago, Chris22 said:

It's a really tough call. On the one hand, it would be foolish to turn our backs on a new market where we have managed to get 7,000+ fans per week watching second or third division rugby league. Worse still, we go out, rugby union will swoop and take that audience. And they won't lose them. Plus, like them or lump them Toronto would add value to the TV deal.

However, I understand that they cannot be readmitted without creditors being paid and significant assurances that players will not go without pay again. Then, all of their players will leave so it will be a rebuild job. If there is a points deduction, relegation is a near certainty. And would the Toronto public be put off watching their team get panned every week? I wonder if it may be better to allow Toronto to rebuild in a more sustainable year in the Championship?

This pretty much echos my feelings. There's no question Toronto add value, however the the phrasing the prospective new owner used (super league or bust) makes me uneasy. If they were to be let in next year the chances of building a squad capable of survival in a regular season are slim to none, let alone one with a potential points deduction and no guarantees Covid won't be having lasting travel issues well into next season.

 

Their already weak pack is being picked off and much of their better players are taking deals elsewhere, it's ultimately going to do even more damage if they are getting pasted each week or struggling to put 17 fit bodies out there. It would be doing them a kindness if anything to get them back into the lower tiers to rebuild and get some foundations in place where they aren't going to be exposed in SL but it just seems like the new owner isn't interested in that at all.

[Lowdesert]

It seems, the TWP cut of funding is too tempting to some clubs.  Imo, no way will clubs agree to footing their own travel and Ex’s in this environment.

Elstone against them too.  Why is his view released?  What a drip this man is.

[RobertAM]

2 minutes ago, Lowdesert said:

It seems, the TWP cut of funding is too tempting to some clubs.  Imo, no way will clubs agree to footing their own travel and Ex’s in this environment.

Elstone against them too.  Why is his view released?  What a drip this man is.

yep he came over here and saw what a brilliant game day it was (he admitted this) but changes his tune as he sees which way the wind is blowing and comes out against readmission. cannot see how any (expansion) team would want to join a club where you are told "we dont really want you" from the off. I hope Catalans and Toulouse see what they are up against. Sad for my native land..Little Britain mentality.

[Dave T]

2 minutes ago, Lowdesert said:

It seems, the TWP cut of funding is too tempting to some clubs.  Imo, no way will clubs agree to footing their own travel and Ex’s in this environment.

Elstone against them too.  Why is his view released?  What a drip this man is.

I think the expenses point often gets belittled, but it is a serious point. As part of the decision on TWP when we look at cost v return it can become quite expensive (in RL terms) with unknown benefits in an unknown timescale. 

The cost of admitting TWP becomes probably half a million or so to the existing clubs. Some may be bold and say you just pay it, but when we talk about benefits we get told there will be no TV money for a while and this is reliant on more NA teams (and more associated costs), when people ask about players, the answer is it will be a generation. 

I think putting the onus on those pushing this expansion to cover costs is a fairly reasonable starting point. 

[Derwent]

48 minutes ago, TIWIT said:

 

It was only in the days leading up to the Championship Final against Featherstone that the members of SL demanded that TWP continue to cover their travel costs as well. 

.

 

Airbrushing history again.

Some 3 weeks before the play off final Elstone gave a media briefing where he confirmed that Toronto would not get central distribution and would pay travelling expenses. I’m sure the club would have been aware of this well in advance of any public statement. To say it was only in the days before the final is stretching the truth.

https://www.loverugbyleague.com/post/toronto-will-not-take-central-distribution-if-they-gain-promotion-to-super-league/

 

[Dave T]

3 minutes ago, Derwent said:

Airbrushing history again.

Some 3 weeks before the play off final Elstone gave a media briefing where he confirmed that Toronto would not get central distribution and would pay travelling expenses. I’m sure the club would have been aware of this well in advance of any public statement. To say it was only in the days before the final is stretching the truth.

https://www.loverugbyleague.com/post/toronto-will-not-take-central-distribution-if-they-gain-promotion-to-super-league/

 

Interesting isn't it? 

[Man of Kent]

I’m still expecting Toronto will be offered a way back, but on SL terms in a way that minimises cost/risk to the other clubs,  e.g. a ‘bail bond’, partial funding, continued paying of travel costs etc.

If Toronto found that unacceptable, I’d have no issue if it was then a case of ‘so long and thanks for the hot dogs’.

At the end of the day, it’s up to Toronto to shoulder the burden of proving that transatlantic rugby league in a Covid era is financially viable, not Super League & the RFL. 

[Michael1812]

1 hour ago, Derwent said:

Well yes but there are clubs who are struggling financially especially in the current climate. It’s a tough sell to ask them to not only give up a six figure sum but then compound that by telling them they also need to find another £40-£50k to fund their own travel and expenses to Canada, maybe double that depending on loop fixtures. Of course those clubs are going to put their own welfare first.

I agree that clubs need to put themselves first but should super league be run to maximise the competition or to protect it’s weakest members? In the i end, I hope Toronto don’t come back but time will tell. 

[yipyee]

5 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

You are really difficult to debate with , what do you suggest ' real ' sales should be for a Championship club ? 

The more you spout things without answering questions about the things you spout the dafter you look 

You suggested clubs don't sell clothing that could be worn outside of a game , they do , you suggest clubs don't have ' real ' levels of sales , and when questioned you just get personal and try to insult using the club of the person asking you a quite reasonable question 

Pointless trying to engage with on any actual point of discussion , sad really 

I think that when studying laurence of arabia he needed to stop the tribes from squabbling amongst themselves and tackle the real 'enemy' or outside threats.

I see this is what RL needs to do, stop squabbling over each others 'wells' or patches so to speak and work together to see off external threats.

How have we had a tv deal with aky for so long and then see F1 then cricket and now NFL get dedicated channels whilst RL has to move away from weekends and in some cases onto irrelevant sky channels.

How is it american sports can flood the uk with merchandise with sainsburys actually selling merchandise from teams who play in the london series.

How can baseball sell merchandise for a sport that as you rightly point out is not widespread in the uk and for me is very dull to watch.

How can american football spread across the uk to reach all corners have more teams in Scotland than RL and have a growing presence in universities which will crwate exposential growth in a few years when the graduates go back home or into cities and workplaces and continue to grow the game.

And no its nothing to do with money, its a steategic growth that they have comitted to and stuck with. Its road games similar to our magic weekend but placed in a new location to target a new audience. Its putting development officers and an academy in a new area and not defending its homeland as the calls from RL cry out. Its getting a free tv deal with plans to charge further down the line. 

10 years ago no one really knew about american football and people watched as a curiosity. Now as mentioned the tv coverage is huge and the bbc covers this sport more than RL.

Eventually a team will relocate to the uk. One owner very nearly bought wembley to play 8 games a year in!

Now compare that to Toronto and how we are made them play through the semi pro ranks, how we dont want to help them develop the sport, how we laugh at a free tv deal etc.. we really need to club together and support strategic growth, be prepared for road games and free tv deals in a new area etc..

Now back to what leigh can do... well if no one is drinking out of omar shariffs well then all is ok in that part of the desert! 

[Big Picture]

1 hour ago, Mr Plow said:

What’s happens to them now? What if they enter the Championship and get promoted again? Will SL let them back in? What about Ottawa? 
The worst thing that could happen now though is if SL stays as 11 clubs next year. We’re going backwards, always 1 step forward 2 steps back with this sport

If they're not accepted back into SL with a full equal share of the central distribution, they'll fold.  LiVolsi has made it plain that he's only interested in taking over if both of those things happen.

[RobertAM]

35 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

I’m still expecting Toronto will be offered a way back, but on SL terms in a way that minimises cost/risk to the other clubs,  e.g. a ‘bail bond’, partial funding, continued paying of travel costs etc.

If Toronto found that unacceptable, I’d have no issue if it was then a case of ‘so long and thanks for the hot dogs’.

At the end of the day, it’s up to Toronto to shoulder the burden of proving that transatlantic rugby league in a Covid era is financially viable, not Super League & the RFL. 

Thats right..the governing body and the games premiere competition have no responsibility for growing the game ..its all up the clubs..take your blinkers off mate

[LeytherRob]

19 minutes ago, yipyee said:

I think that when studying laurence of arabia he needed to stop the tribes from squabbling amongst themselves and tackle the real 'enemy' or outside threats.

I see this is what RL needs to do, stop squabbling over each others 'wells' or patches so to speak and work together to see off external threats.

How have we had a tv deal with aky for so long and then see F1 then cricket and now NFL get dedicated channels whilst RL has to move away from weekends and in some cases onto irrelevant sky channels.

How is it american sports can flood the uk with merchandise with sainsburys actually selling merchandise from teams who play in the london series.

How can baseball sell merchandise for a sport that as you rightly point out is not widespread in the uk and for me is very dull to watch.

How can american football spread across the uk to reach all corners have more teams in Scotland than RL and have a growing presence in universities which will crwate exposential growth in a few years when the graduates go back home or into cities and workplaces and continue to grow the game.

And no its nothing to do with money, its a steategic growth that they have comitted to and stuck with. Its road games similar to our magic weekend but placed in a new location to target a new audience. Its putting development officers and an academy in a new area and not defending its homeland as the calls from RL cry out. Its getting a free tv deal with plans to charge further down the line. 

10 years ago no one really knew about american football and people watched as a curiosity. Now as mentioned the tv coverage is huge and the bbc covers this sport more than RL.

Eventually a team will relocate to the uk. One owner very nearly bought wembley to play 8 games a year in!

Now compare that to Toronto and how we are made them play through the semi pro ranks, how we dont want to help them develop the sport, how we laugh at a free tv deal etc.. we really need to club together and support strategic growth, be prepared for road games and free tv deals in a new area etc..

Now back to what leigh can do... well if no one is drinking out of omar shariffs well then all is ok in that part of the desert! 

When you compare RL to sports like cricket, F1, RU, football it's all about money, power and influence. RL gave up any hope of being a major player in UK sports the day the split happened in 1895. No amount of strategic plans, or creative marketing, or baseball caps will ever compare to the huge swathes of influence these sports hold over the establishment classes. You only have to look at Lords on members day, or the gridwalk during a grand prix, or Twickenham for an England game. Rugby Leagues status as a working class sport is one of it's great charms but also it's biggest obstacle to success.

[Man of Kent]

14 minutes ago, RobertAM said:

Thats right..the governing body and the games premiere competition have no responsibility for growing the game ..its all up the clubs..take your blinkers off mate

The story says Argyle spent the equivalent of £5m a year on Toronto. We don’t have that sort of money to spaff at the best of times.

[TIWIT]

1 hour ago, Dave T said:

I'm afraid this is all just assumptions with no basis that allow you to present a poor TWP narrative - something even TWP's representatives themselves are not pushing.

Im not saying its right or wrong, because none of us know, no matter how confidently we post it. 

Nevertheless this is what we here have always believed and we will continue to hold to that.

As for the current leadership group not pushing it why would they bring up past grievances?

[Harry Stottle]

4 hours ago, TheReaper said:

I actually do agree with you on protecting teams, my own ideal would be for a 16 team league, with 2 Canadian and 2 French teams. English clubs would be placated by receiving an "extra" spot back up to 12. I wouldn't necessarily define it as "protected teams", however, but as "defined slots" per country, with each country free to determine their own entries. So the English could define theirs as the top 12 from their pyramid system, and the bottom of 12 being replaced by the top of their next tier. Canada would be free to directly place in TWP and the Aces since there are no other options. France could do the same, or require the lower of Catalan or Toulouse to playoff against the Elite 1 winner. Up to all of them I would give the power of this decision to governing bodies, i.e. CRLA. That way if Canada were to ever develop it's own league they could have that winner enter if so desired. This has already been done somewhat in Super Rugby in the past with the South African entries.

I did not get any further than this paragraph, could I please remind you that this is the  British Rugby League, what you are suggesting is like the party gatecrasher who wants to enter the house and take over the joint, you asked to be allowed to attend so  just come in and accept the fare on offer, listen the music the host wants to play or just Cough Off elsewhere, simple.

[Harry Stottle]

6 hours ago, TheReaper said:

as they rose to a level with clubs in the same realm of financial capability.

 How many clubs do you think would make up the top division 6 maybe 7, our league knows full well it's capabilities, we have 12 teams, had 14 teams in the top divisions but still only had 4 winners of the big gong in 25 years, no number of North America clubs in 30 years is going to add to the player pool all it will do with more wealthier teams is distribute the present 'capable' players more thinly, adding new numerous teams will simply dilute the standard on offer, I appreciate that those who have no 'yardstick' to measure what I mean who are new to the sport, but those of us with far more expierence wish to see it improve not go backwards,

[Rupert Prince]

2 hours ago, Michael1812 said:

Based on that article’s guess of the clubs for and against TWP returning, they look like they can be put in to two categories. Those afraid of the competition that TWP could offer (possibly being relegated and loosing Sky money) and those who see a positive from the competition (a possible growth in publicity and revenues). 
 

 

The important words are "due dilligence".

Toronto went bankrupt.  As such they would be lucky to get put in the Championship... always assuming they have enough backing and management.

But spending all this time on Toronto is counter productive.  Rugby League needs to make big changes itself.  Big changes.

[Harry Stottle]

2 hours ago, Dave T said:

when people ask about players, the answer is it will be a generation. 

3 generations minimum for number's of any significant quantity.

[Harry Stottle]

10 hours ago, LeytherRob said:

When you compare RL to sports like cricket, F1, RU, football it's all about money, power and influence. RL gave up any hope of being a major player in UK sports the day the split happened in 1895. No amount of strategic plans, or creative marketing, or baseball caps will ever compare to the huge swathes of influence these sports hold over the establishment classes. You only have to look at Lords on members day, or the gridwalk during a grand prix, or Twickenham for an England game. Rugby Leagues status as a working class sport is one of it's great charms but also it's biggest obstacle to success.

Quite profound Rob and ever so true, as far as the establishment is concerned 'you can't polish a terd' (deliberate spelling mistake to avoid deletion and meaning)

[Gooleboy]

2 hours ago, Lowdesert said:

It seems, the TWP cut of funding is too tempting to some clubs.  Imo, no way will clubs agree to footing their own travel and Ex’s in this environment.

Elstone against them too.  Why is his view released?  What a drip this man is.

Despite his massive salary, he has to do as he is told.

[Dave T]

17 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

3 generations minimum for number's of any significant quantity.

Maybe, as long as we can see progress I don't see that as a show-stopper, but there has to be some benefits - people keep making some vague statements that TWP clearly add value, but can't then quantify it - if you make a statement that the benefit is obvious, then you should be able to state what the value is. 

I'm pretty comfortable with the rewards being modest in the short term, and I do accept an element of a leap of faith, but people need to stop making vague claims of benefits. Like in 5 years with just TWP in SL for NA what TV and commercial income can we expect as a comp? If the answer is zero, that may lead to one decision, if it is $5m a year, that could lead to a different one.

Ultimately, this is what the new owner will need to demonstrate, because vague benefits will not get enough people on board. 

[Quolls2020]

Didn’t Ottawa buy an existing rugby club, therefore their entry conditions would/will be different?

weren't some Of the very unfair conditions imposed on Toronto actually Put forward by themselves as an incentive for admission?

isnt having an international “domestic” competition incredibly risky now and in the future when countries are likely to close borders at the first “sniff” of an Infectious disease ..?

super rugby is all but over and looks far more likely to split and proceed as domestic or regional comps.

is Toronto really in a position to demand anything? Well the potential new boss seems to be demanding, The other officials Seem to be begging.

will new ownership attract a NA TV deal when the old did not?
 

can they be competitive when their best players have left?
 

can they be financially viable (short or long term)?

should they Be required to be competitive, ie subject to relegation.

should they be allowed back in at all?

In SL

in the championship?

Back to the bottom.

deferred for a year to allow them to get reorganised (or is that organised)

 

 

 

 

[Gooleboy]

2 minutes ago, Quolls2020 said:

Didn’t Ottawa buy an existing rugby club, therefore their entry conditions would/will be different?

weren't some Of the very unfair conditions imposed on Toronto actually Put forward by themselves as an incentive for admission?

isnt having an international “domestic” competition incredibly risky now and in the future when countries are likely to close borders at the first “sniff” of an Infectious disease ..?

super rugby is all but over and looks far more likely to split and proceed as domestic or regional comps.

is Toronto really in a position to demand anything? Well the potential new boss seems to be demanding, The other officials Seem to be begging.

will new ownership attract a NA TV deal when the old did not?
 

can they be competitive when their best players have left?
 

can they be financially viable (short or long term)?

should they Be required to be competitive, ie subject to relegation.

should they be allowed back in at all?

In SL

in the championship?

Back to the bottom.

deferred for a year to allow them to get reorganised (or is that organised)

 

 

 

 

Before he makes any demands, what about paying TW's Creditors and Players first.

[TheReaper]

2 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

I did not get any further than this paragraph, could I please remind you that this is the  British Rugby League, what you are suggesting is like the party gatecrasher who wants to enter the house and take over the joint, you asked to be allowed to attend so  just come in and accept the fare on offer, listen the music the host wants to play or just Cough Off elsewhere, simple.

Start reading from the bottom and read up, you'll get more out of it before getting to the objectionable part 

As far as I'm aware, this is Super League Europe. Not strictly British at all. 

It should rename to Atlantic anyway. And be a true partnership, with equals who use their varying strengths to benefit each other.

But you'd know that if you read on. Instead you stopped as soon as you came across something you didn't like, and didn't look ahead to see if any value came later.

Say, you wouldn't happen to be in charge of a rugby league club, would you?