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The General 'Toronto Wolfpack' Discussion Thread


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2 hours ago, yipyee said:

And theres the small time thinking thats holding us back right there!!

RL has had billionaire and millionaires involved and we have pushed them all away, RL needs to stop thinking about small towns and start to strategically grow.

We had a chance with sky but have allowed them to push us to the side with our needy demands, Koukash summarised this at the last round of negotiations and was pushed out of the sport.

RL will always be small time while as whelan put it to Mike Ashley 'there is a northern club and your not in it' 

Small time sport for small time people im afraid and its saddening

How is me stating unquestionable facts(that Cricket, F1, RU and football holds infinitely more power and influence than RL) holding the sport back?

 

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1 hour ago, gingerjon said:

It is bizarre and it is wrong.

The extreme counter narrative that unless you were born in, and of, a rugby league town you must act like a supplicant to the true keepers of the game at all times, is also wrong.

But we are where we are.

The truth, as I see it, is that Toronto is not a gateway to any significant increased income for the game as a whole. Toronto should also honour all their commitments to their players before any expectation of a return to Super League. But, beyond that, there is no need to put any barriers to their participation that aren't there for other teams.

Agreed, in parts.

The problem with your last para is that TWP can't just be treated the same as other clubs, as there are barriers there. The geography is an issue. It is an issue because it causes substantial costs, and it is an issue because of the weather in TWP.  There is also the issue that if £10m is routed into a Canadian club over 5 years, that is £10m less than is routed into the UK game. Whatever we think of some of the weaker clubs in SL, they are delivering RL in the UK and its communities, which is a key objective of the RFL. 

All of the owners of SL clubs are putting in far more than they are taking out.

How we fund this is really really important, and needs to be ironed out, because before we know it we have Ottawa, and Toulouse, and New York (unlikely, but you get my point) - and this all dilutes funding and investment in UK RL.

Anyone can play RL, anywhere, any time, that's nowt to do with Simon Moran or Ian Lenegan. Who plays in this competition here in this part of the world is absolutely down to the existing clubs and/or officials.

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6 minutes ago, Dave T said:

The problem with your last para is that TWP can't just be treated the same as other clubs, as there are barriers there. The geography is an issue. It is an issue because it causes substantial costs, and it is an issue because of the weather in TWP.  There is also the issue that if £10m is routed into a Canadian club over 5 years, that is £10m less than is routed into the UK game. Whatever we think of some of the weaker clubs in SL, they are delivering RL in the UK and its communities, which is a key objective of the RFL. 

Yes, that's why I was careful to try and make it clear that I was meaning additional barriers. Geography, the past, weather are barriers that rugby league didn't create and can't do much about. Additional barriers that I am thinking of are the equivalent to the RFL asking for additional bonds from clubs it doesn't like to enter the Challenge Cup - even though the ultimate impact (low crowds for the final) could equally happen from clubs it hasn't asked the bond from.

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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38 minutes ago, tuutaisrambo said:

If you got to travel to Toronto for your job you'd be in favour too. Makes a nice change from wigan.

Imagine if a team from the Bahamas applied for SL 😅

Imagine if someone pretended they could run a Europe-wide competition using park clubs and a twitter account.

But, anyway, do tell me more about the Bahamas. I may need to go on a factfinding mission.

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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30 minutes ago, LeytherRob said:

How is me stating unquestionable facts(that Cricket, F1, RU and football holds infinitely more power and influence than RL) holding the sport back?

 

Its the mindset of small time sport for working class people, its bizare its not you in particular just most leadership within the game, dismissing NFL as 'they are just dumping old stock to sell in europe' is mindblowing, they have a strategic approach to grow the game, RL have a strategic approach to shrink the game and keep it in an elongated bubble down the m62.

Its crazy that theres a bloke who wanted to start a club in Canada, and the RFL made him jump through hoops, hes now walking away and someone else wants to grow on what is already there and theres the expectation to jump through hoops again.

If we welcome newcomers with open arms and work together to expand the game we could then tell sky they can have the rights but we want a dedicated channel, 

 

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22 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Yes, that's why I was careful to try and make it clear that I was meaning additional barriers. Geography, the past, weather are barriers that rugby league didn't create and can't do much about. Additional barriers that I am thinking of are the equivalent to the RFL asking for additional bonds from clubs it doesn't like to enter the Challenge Cup - even though the ultimate impact (low crowds for the final) could equally happen from clubs it hasn't asked the bond from.

Yes, the Cup bond was a poor response to an emerging risk. 

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9 minutes ago, yipyee said:

1 - Its the mindset of small time sport for working class people, its bizare its not you in particular just most leadership within the game, dismissing NFL as 'they are just dumping old stock to sell in europe' is mindblowing, they have a strategic approach to grow the game, RL have a strategic approach to shrink the game and keep it in an elongated bubble down the m62.

2 - Its crazy that theres a bloke who wanted to start a club in Canada, and the RFL made him jump through hoops, hes now walking away and someone else wants to grow on what is already there and theres the expectation to jump through hoops again.

3 - If we welcome newcomers with open arms and work together to expand the game we could then tell sky they can have the rights but we want a dedicated channel, 

 

1 - Using one solitary view from a poster about NFL merchandise is a weird way to make a point. It suggests maybe your point isn;t that strong in the first place.

2 - What hoops? He had to cover the costs. I don't know why some people are so upset about demanding money - maybe its a British thing, but if I wanted to go and set up an MLS team they would charge me an absolute bomb, and they would absolutely make me jump through hoop.s

3 - I do agree with the last point about working more closely together, but that doesn't mean bend over and take whatever people want to give us. You seem to want to go easy on TWP and go tough with Sky. TWP are a cost and Sky pay us tens of millions a year. 

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2 hours ago, Rupert Prince said:

 

And all I see with Kyakman is running round in circles.

 

First, you missed the 'a'.

Second,  I don't run, I paddle.

Third, my bearings are always straight as an arrow but yes indeed I do move....not standing still like a decaying pillar of salt as I slowly erode and do nothing with nil movement in an ever changing world...either adapt and change or become obsolete...its called evolution.

I fear for the future of the game in England if Toronto is denied.   History will show that this would be the beginning of the end (its so obvious but you have to make an effort to look).

 

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So, if I understand correctly:

1. Unless Toronto are allowed back to SL, the players wont get the money owed

2.When the new [and probably reduced] tv deal comes in, TW want it to be distributed equally

3. There is no commitment to the payment of other TW debts, just a vague 'we will look at them'

4. There will be no commitment to paying expenses for travel to Canada [thus increasing SL club's costs]

5. The potential new owner will walk away if SL deosn't agree to the above

6. Kayakman [who I think is probably Jean in disguise] believes a 140 year old sport will collapse unless SL agree to the blackmail from the groomer

Interesting prospect......

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1 hour ago, Dave T said:

There is also the issue that if £10m is routed into a Canadian club over 5 years, that is £10m less than is routed into the UK game. Whatever we think of some of the weaker clubs in SL, they are delivering RL in the UK and its communities, which is a key objective of the RFL. 

Actually, given that:

1. Most players are English,  plus Aus/NZ

2. Most team operations are based in the UK

3. They have ~10000 Canadian customers paying to attend games

I would bet the net result is money leaving Canada for the UK.

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44 minutes ago, Kayakman said:

I fear for the future of the game in England if Toronto is denied.   History will show that this would be the beginning of the end (its so obvious but you have to make an effort to look).

 

For the 47 years I have been involved in RL there has always been someone saying the game is dying.

What they actually mean is its not what they want it to be, which is something quite different.

I’m not prejudiced, I hate everybody equally

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Your point 3 there just isn't true - the average was 7800 [ish] and my brother got his free after buying drinks in a local bar. I'm not sure there is an accurate assessment as to how many paying customers there were but maybe 5k? Still pretty good but not as good as the spin - on the podcast, Brian Noble said that over 1m identified as TW fans!

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16 minutes ago, Kayakman said:

First, you missed the 'a'.

Second,  I don't run, I paddle.

Third, my bearings are always straight as an arrow but yes indeed I do move....not standing still like a decaying pillar of salt as I slowly erode and do nothing with nil movement in an ever changing world...either adapt and change or become obsolete...its called evolution.

I fear for the future of the game in England if Toronto is denied.   History will show that this would be the beginning of the end (its so obvious but you have to make an effort to look).

I'm genuinely sorry for TWP and supporters like you.  I'd like the game to be expanded and improved.  I do not see that TWP failing will suffer UK RL particularly.  What a failed TWP does is ruin an opportunity for all of us.

If RL fails it will be because RL fails all on its own. But that is an other issue.

The harsh reality is that to transplant RL in a new continent from scratch takes time and huge amounts of money. I would have thought the penny might have dropped with that by now.  And also a small word called "organisation". And to be fair, the RFL and SL (and 30 individual clubs as well) are as much to blame for that.

The organisation is lacking.  The vision that some in SL have is constrained, by blinkered and self serving clubs. And money is lacking.

The real need is to bring in a massive investor, in the way that Liberty Media bought F1.  This would of course mean some loss of control but it would mean "organisation" and drive, and perhaps most important "clout", and if successful it would produce money for the clubs and RFL.

But yes, what is needed from all sides is "vision".

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6 minutes ago, RugbyFan99 said:

Your point 3 there just isn't true - the average was 7800 [ish] and my brother got his free after buying drinks in a local bar. I'm not sure there is an accurate assessment as to how many paying customers there were but maybe 5k? Still pretty good but not as good as the spin - on the podcast, Brian Noble said that over 1m identified as TW fans!

Did the exact same 7800 people attend every game, with nobody else ever going? 10000 is probably low.

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11 minutes ago, RugbyFan99 said:

Your point 3 there just isn't true - the average was 7800 [ish] and my brother got his free after buying drinks in a local bar. 

I saw with my own eyes folk walking in to the final without being asked for tickets etc.... and apparently it was an illusion.... I'm informed it couldn't possibly have been true....

BUT.....regardless of that, the stadium was full and it was great craic

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3 hours ago, Dave T said:

Just this week mate I have seen various soundbites about how having TWP in SL are a no brainer and they clearly add value and we can benefit from huge NA investments. 

Thats a huge leap from your claim that people are saying they are the saviour of rugby league. 

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50 minutes ago, RugbyFan99 said:

So, if I understand correctly:

1. Unless Toronto are allowed back to SL, the players wont get the money owed

2.When the new [and probably reduced] tv deal comes in, TW want it to be distributed equally

3. There is no commitment to the payment of other TW debts, just a vague 'we will look at them'

4. There will be no commitment to paying expenses for travel to Canada [thus increasing SL club's costs]

5. The potential new owner will walk away if SL deosn't agree to the above

6. Kayakman [who I think is probably Jean in disguise] believes a 140 year old sport will collapse unless SL agree to the blackmail from the groomer

Interesting prospect......

Where have you got all this info from?

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45 minutes ago, TheReaper said:

Actually, given that:

1. Most players are English,  plus Aus/NZ

2. Most team operations are based in the UK

3. They have ~10000 Canadian customers paying to attend games

I would bet the net result is money leaving Canada for the UK.

Had TWP delivered their promises around investing in London, this would have been an easier point to make. But whilst I don't necessarily agree with your conclusion, I think it is a good point that if true should form part of their case. 

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6 minutes ago, dkw said:

Thats a huge leap from your claim that people are saying they are the saviour of rugby league. 

Not really, just over an hour ago a TWP fan on here stated that if TWP are not back in SL that would be the beginning of the end of the game here. 

And that ain't an uncommon view. 

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4 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Not really, just over an hour ago a TWP fan on here stated that if TWP are not back in SL that would be the beginning of the end of the game here. 

And that ain't an uncommon view. 

You didnt mention that post, the thing you mentioned was nothing like someone saying TWP are the saviour of RL. Also on the last page you said this

Quote

"Using one solitary view from a poster about NFL merchandise is a weird way to make a point. It suggests maybe your point isn;t that strong in the first place"

 yet now one person saying TWP not back in would destroy RL is ok? 

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2 hours ago, Dave T said:

1 - Using one solitary view from a poster about NFL merchandise is a weird way to make a point. It suggests maybe your point isn;t that strong in the first place.

2 - What hoops? He had to cover the costs. I don't know why some people are so upset about demanding money - maybe its a British thing, but if I wanted to go and set up an MLS team they would charge me an absolute bomb, and they would absolutely make me jump through hoop.s

3 - I do agree with the last point about working more closely together, but that doesn't mean bend over and take whatever people want to give us. You seem to want to go easy on TWP and go tough with Sky. TWP are a cost and Sky pay us tens of millions a year. 

1 Its the same attitude over and over again. Same point different trigger

2. For me the situation would be different if they had gone straight into SL but making a team start from a semi pro (basically amateur) comp and therefore needing to build multiple teams theough a short space of time, making them pay all travel costs for what was always going to be a precession, then when at the point of joining SL say your not getting a slice of the cake even though you will be helping to bake it.. this is all after posting 5 figure bonds, something other clubs do not need to do. I think the RFL have clearly asked too much.

3. I agree about not accepting anything but theres got to be a culture of give and take.

The sky deal was poor and koukash said as much, he wanted to put the rights out to tender and the desperate RFL and other chairmen bit off skys hand at the first offer.

RU called skys bluff and went to BT as did the NRL (not BT but same principle)

I know elstone gets bad press for walking away from the french tv deal but it is the right attitude, the only way yoy can negotiate is to be prepared to walk away. I would be amazed if BT, Amazon, BBC, channel 4 or ITV wouldnt be interested in broardcasting live RL. 

The difference we have to soccer is that they film all the games and sell the content/stream. For me this is the way forward, wasnt it 24k a game? And that is for a full production.

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1 minute ago, dkw said:

You didnt mention that post, the thing you mentioned was nothing like someone saying TWP are the saviour of RL. Also on this very page you said this

 yet now one person saying TWP not back in would destroy RL is ok? 

You are free to form your own view, I am very happy with my point that the benefits that TWP bring to SL are massively overstated - there are many many examples here and elsewhere.

It is a regular point made that this is the biggest opportunity for RL in England and that if we miss it the game will die. 

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2 minutes ago, Dave T said:

You are free to form your own view, I am very happy with my point that the benefits that TWP bring to SL are massively overstated - there are many many examples here and elsewhere.

It is a regular point made that this is the biggest opportunity for RL in England and that if we miss it the game will die. 

If we dont expand we will die, this is fact and is happening before our eyes.

Whether Toronto would trigger this is highly debatable but would definatly be another nail in the proverbial coffin.

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3 minutes ago, Dave T said:

You are free to form your own view, I am very happy with my point that the benefits that TWP bring to SL are massively overstated - there are many many examples here and elsewhere.

It is a regular point made that this is the biggest opportunity for RL in England and that if we miss it the game will die. 

But that`s not what you were saying, that`s a completely different discussion to the one I`m having with you. 

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