The General 'Toronto Wolfpack' Discussion Thread

[whatmichaelsays]

5 minutes ago, Robin Evans said:

I never said RL is perfect.... it isn't....and its on its ar se.... skint!!

All the more reason to try and find ways to change that. 

The sport needs to find ways to get more people watching it in order to increase it's value. Geographical expansion may well be part of the answer but it is not necessarily the only answer. The the existing clubs were capable of doing that, we'd have much less discussion on here about overseas expansion. 

Again, if we're using the argument "what do they add?" to discredit a club, we have to use the same argument to appriase all prospective Super League clubs. 

[Robin Evans]

3 minutes ago, whatmichaelsays said:

All the more reason to try and find ways to change that. 

The sport needs to find ways to get more people watching it in order to increase it's value. Geographical expansion may well be part of the answer but it is not necessarily the only answer. The the existing clubs were capable of doing that, we'd have much less discussion on here about overseas expansion. 

Again, if we're using the argument "what do they add?" to discredit a club, we have to use the same argument to appriase all prospective Super League clubs. 

As we need to treat the criteria for inclusion in SL the same for all clubs.... cos that wakey and cas gone.....

Toronto has its plusses. Its detractors will point out flaws in the clubs existence well before covid and the logistics.

If the cost of their inclusion puts a significant hit on half a dozen existing clubs is the cost worth it?

Neither you or I have the info to judge that.

Expansion for expansion's sake is nuts.

Currently their is no governance at strategic level in RFL to support expansion. 

I would suspect the until there is expansion will continue on a wing and a prayer

[Harry Stottle]

26 minutes ago, whatmichaelsays said:

Again, if we're using the argument "what do they add?" to discredit a club, we have to use the same argument to appriase all prospective Super League clubs. 

Glad you threw that into the equation, it could be very relevant if licensing is reintroduced.

[whatmichaelsays]

1 hour ago, Robin Evans said:

As we need to treat the criteria for inclusion in SL the same for all clubs.... cos that wakey and cas gone.....

Toronto has its plusses. Its detractors will point out flaws in the clubs existence well before covid and the logistics.

If the cost of their inclusion puts a significant hit on half a dozen existing clubs is the cost worth it?

Neither you or I have the info to judge that.

Expansion for expansion's sake is nuts.

Currently their is no governance at strategic level in RFL to support expansion. 

I would suspect the until there is expansion will continue on a wing and a prayer

We're not talking about expansion for expansion's sake here. We're talking about expansion because without it, the sport in this country will continue to lose relevance, lose its audience and, in time, lose it's viabilty as a professional entity. 

And again, going back to the point I made earlier up the thread, it's wrong to see expansion as a purely geographic issue. Expansion is an issue of how the sport reaches audiences that currently aren't watching rugby league and how it turns those audiences into a group of people that demand rugby league content - be that in person or on television. 

Geographic expansion might be a part of that process, but it is not itself the answer. It's why hosting events in Newcastle, London or Cardiff is a waste of time if all we then do is sell them to the same people who already buy the sport. 

What is clear is that the heartland clubs have, by and large, shown little interest or ability to do that - we have declining audiences in the stadium, we continue to struggle for column inches and television audience figures show mixed results. It's therefore fair to apply the standards that we apply to overseas clubs to heartland clubs as well - how are they bringing new audiences to rugby league? 

[Hela Wigmen]

26 minutes ago, Robin Evans said:

As we need to treat the criteria for inclusion in SL the same for all clubs.... cos that wakey and cas gone.....

Toronto has its plusses. Its detractors will point out flaws in the clubs existence well before covid and the logistics.

If the cost of their inclusion puts a significant hit on half a dozen existing clubs is the cost worth it?

Neither you or I have the info to judge that.

Expansion for expansion's sake is nuts.

Currently their is no governance at strategic level in RFL to support expansion. 

I would suspect the until there is expansion will continue on a wing and a prayer

Exactly this. This Toronto readmission thing is a pointless exercise for Rugby League unless there’s a strategic plan from the game around their inclusion. If there’s not, the vicious cycle continues and we’ll be chucking them in Rugby League Room 101 inside five years. 

[Scubby]

13 minutes ago, whatmichaelsays said:

We're not talking about expansion for expansion's sake here. We're talking about expansion because without it, the sport in this country will continue to lose relevance, lose its audience and, in time, lose it's viabilty as a professional entity. 

 

This is the important fact - losing relevance is a real slow, long and painful decline. We cannot live in the past. Yes, millions used to watch GB tests and Challenge cup finals on the BBC - but they also used to watch snooker and darts in their millions too. The world has moved on and those viewers are not there now (simply because they only had 4 tv channels) they have to be earned.

Northern clubs in a predominantly northern sport don't have the right to be relevant. They have to be judged on being relevant based on what they do - actions! One of the things they could have done was to embrace a wider footprint through international games and more expansion in club world. Well they have a choice now to fight that slow decline or to self preserve and decay a little more.

 

[Derwent]

1 hour ago, Robin Evans said:

Toronto's reinclusion has to be in the best interests of our game.

I doubt few, if any on here have all the info/numbers to make that call.

Of course, the debate then shifts as to what is in the best interests ofvthe game.

It’s more than that. Unfortunately due to the current crisis it is a case of survival. Toronto can only be readmitted if it’s not to the detriment of other clubs. No point in including them and losing 3 or 4 other clubs in the process. That may be short term thinking but in stark reality that’s the situation we are in. This isn’t fantasy island and with this pandemic there’s a real danger of clubs going pop if you take money away from them now. The sad fact is that a lot of our clubs simply can’t afford the “jam tomorrow” approach.

[Harry Stottle]

32 minutes ago, Hela Wigmen said:

Exactly this. This Toronto readmission thing is a pointless exercise for Rugby League unless there’s a strategic plan from the game around their inclusion. If there’s not, the vicious cycle continues and we’ll be chucking them in Rugby League Room 101 inside five years. 

But there are those who wish to proceed and push forward without any strategic plan or direction, when in all essence all the sport will be doing in Toronto is swopping a mining shovel for some face cream.

[Hela Wigmen]

4 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

But there are those who wish to proceed and push forward without any strategic plan or direction, when in all essence all the sport will be doing in Toronto is swopping a mining shovel for some face cream.

Without a plan, yes, that’s all that will happen. With a plan, things could be different. 

[Tommygilf]

 

[Kayakman]

3 hours ago, TIWIT said:

I used to like the New Westminster Salmon Bellies.

I have had the privilege of knowing many fellows who played for that club.

[Robin Evans]

9 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

 

I doubt there would be a sport left.... but yeah..... equal scrutiny .... especially if licencing comes in

[fieldofclothofgold]

Every time a RL Expansion club fails I feel for the fans the game loses forever when these clubs close 

[Derwent]

30 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

 

Championship and League 1 clubs are already scrutinised and measured on various things. They don't just get given the central funding they have to hit certain targets. If they don't hit those then they get lower funding. They are measured on things such as community activity and even have to hit targets for having a certain number of followers on various social media platfroms like Twitter, Facebook and even the OurLeague app.

[Big Picture]

1 hour ago, Derwent said:

It’s more than that. Unfortunately due to the current crisis it is a case of survival. Toronto can only be readmitted if it’s not to the detriment of other clubs. No point in including them and losing 3 or 4 other clubs in the process. That may be short term thinking but in stark reality that’s the situation we are in. This isn’t fantasy island and with this pandemic there’s a real danger of clubs going pop if you take money away from them now. The sad fact is that a lot of our clubs simply can’t afford the “jam tomorrow” approach.

You've illustrated the sport's Catch-22 situation there.  On the one hand it needs the likes of Toronto in order to raise its profile and stature and increase its audience and income because the traditional northern clubs aren't capable of doing that, but on the other hand the current structure doesn't have the resources necessary to include the likes of Toronto on an equal footing with the traditional clubs because they can't afford it.

[RugbyFan99]

Slight digression on this - we heard a lot about Mr Argyll's personal guarantee, accepted by the RFL/SL so that players could be paid. Is this now worthless? If so, what form did it take? Who did the due diligence on the guarantee?

[sweaty craiq]

The world is in unchartered waters at present, threats and opportunities are all around will we as a sport seize those opportunities or drown in the potential threats

[Les Tonks Sidestep]

52 minutes ago, Robin Evans said:

I doubt there would be a sport left.... but yeah..... equal scrutiny .... especially if licencing comes in

 

34 minutes ago, Derwent said:

Championship and League 1 clubs are already scrutinised and measured on various things. They don't just get given the central funding they have to hit certain targets. If they don't hit those then they get lower funding. They are measured on things such as community activity and even have to hit targets for having a certain number of followers on various social media platfroms like Twitter, Facebook and even the OurLeague app.

Maybe if journalists like Shaw had scrutinised the long circulating rumours about TWP's unpaid bills and wages rather than simply acting as cheerleaders........

[Harry Stottle]

1 hour ago, Robin Evans said:

I doubt there would be a sport left.... but yeah..... equal scrutiny .... especially if licencing comes in

I wouldn't hold your breath Robin, there is one particular club in your parish that would be the yardstick, they perform well on the field,  have decent attendances but also the worst facilities in SL, along with the third club in your area they could not survive on well over a decade of promises again, could they?

[Adelaide Tiger]

7 hours ago, frank said:

That's what I call a league man.Make that two.

That's why I say give Toronto  another go.They have lot to offer the game.

And I never even mentioned my wedding.  We had booked the wedding for July 1990.  In February the Vicar rang my wife in a panic.  He had double booked the Church for another wedding on the same as ours.

My wife being a good sort said no problem and between them they picked another date.  When I was told the rearranged date I was horrified as it was on Challenge Cup Final day.  I told my wife to be that I would be at the Church but I would watch the game during the reception. Also if Cas got there then some of my relatives and mates would be torn about what to do especially as an invite to a wedding is just an invite not mandatory.

So we rang the Vicar and explained the dilemma.  It was sorted by the Vicar offering to marry us on the Sunday, the day after our original date in July.  Happy ending

[Adelaide Tiger]

18 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

I wouldn't hold your breath Robin, there is one particular club in your parish that would be the yardstick, they perform well on the field,  have decent attendances but also the worst facilities in SL, along with the third club in your area they could not survive on well over a decade of promises again, could they?

Come on Harry don’t be shy just say Cas and Wakey.

Many Cas supporters on the Cas Forum message board, like myself, are more than resigned to the possibility that the club is leaving itself open to being cut from a licensed league, if the game reverts to one, due to the ground and lack of facilities.

[Derwent]

57 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

You've illustrated the sport's Catch-22 situation there.  On the one hand it needs the likes of Toronto in order to raise its profile and stature and increase its audience and income because the traditional northern clubs aren't capable of doing that, but on the other hand the current structure doesn't have the resources necessary to include the likes of Toronto on an equal footing with the traditional clubs because they can't afford it.

Initially Perez sold them the dream of being able to expand to North America without it costing them anything. This is why Toronto were admitted. If Perez had come along at that time and asked to join but with no promise of being self-funded I doubt he would have been given the time of day.

That is why the situation now re Toronto is a completely different proposition. It is now one of yes you can have expansion but its going to cost you. With the best will in the world if its not financially viable then it doesn't make sense to do it, not at this precise moment in time in the middle of an unprecedented situation which will undoubtedly put a lot of clubs under financial pressure. To burden them with more for another pipedream would be pretty reckless in my view.

[Dave T]

1 hour ago, Robin Evans said:

I doubt there would be a sport left.... but yeah..... equal scrutiny .... especially if licencing comes in

 

1 hour ago, Tommygilf said:

 

Until we go down the really strict 'Return on investment' model and exclude Catalans as they bring zero commercial money in versus the 10 UK clubs bringing in £30m.

Be careful what you wish for Matthew. 

[Harry Stottle]

Just now, Adelaide Tiger said:

Come on Harry don’t be shy just say Cas and Wakey.

Many Cas supporters on the Cas Forum message board, like myself, are more than resigned to the possibility that the club is leaving itself open to being cut from a licensed league due to the ground and lack of facilities.

Unfortunately it is a reality they can't escape from, the other part of the equation is that the council  (from afar) is seemingly not wanting or cannot afford to assist and there is no other stadium apart from Fev in the locality available to do a 'deal' with, my club is very lucky that the council built along with some private investment the very excellent Leigh Sports Village, it houses far far more than just the main stadium, and the Mighty Wigan no ground of its own but has the use of the Football Stadium.

Do you think that Mr Lyndsey's 'merger' vision of all those years ago will eventuate and Featherstone will become the lead club in more than just name? Or will you and your fellow fans be happy with life in the lower ranks? 

I did see what you wrote earlier, about your loyalty in any eventuality.

[Tommygilf]

24 minutes ago, Dave T said:

 

Until we go down the really strict 'Return on investment' model and exclude Catalans as they bring zero commercial money in versus the 10 UK clubs bringing in £30m.

Be careful what you wish for Matthew. 

Its not all about money brought in though is it Dave or we'd only have 5 or so teams who actually add value to the competition. Success of academies, quality of stadia, commercial size of club, success, and any other USPs are beneficial.

As I've pointed out previously, people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. We've got clubs that have literally done nothing bar maybe making a final or two in the past 30 years calling the odds on standards.