The General 'Toronto Wolfpack' Discussion Thread

[Oldbear]

1 hour ago, DimmestStar said:

Neil Hudgell's idea of 11 teams in 2021 with a new team promoted every year for 3 years until we have 14 teams was much derided but I've not heard a better one.

That would give the current 11 clubs a vital financial cushion during what is going to be an incredibly difficult 2021 and then the likes of Toulouse , Leigh, London and Featherstone etc have 3 chances of promotion. Or even Toronto if they are prepared to start again in the championship

In theory this would be the best way to solve the problem, it’s probably also the best scenario for TWP as it would allow them to truly rebuild, unfortunately there are 2 problems which I can’t see a solution to

1. Moving to 14 teams, even over a 3 year period, is going to be heavily influenced by the size of the next TV deal and unless that’s much bigger, which is highly unlikely, then you are asking clubs to take a smaller distribution and I don’t think most clubs, especially in the aftermath of this pandemic, can afford that.

2. The existing SL clubs may see this, along with the pandemic, as an opportunity to pull up the drawbridge and create an 11 team closed shop. That way they move back to 12 when they can afford it (if ever) and force any prospective applicants to make a case for inclusion, in other words the return to licensing. This I feel would be morally wrong to have financially weak teams like Wakefield and Hull KR being able to judge who gets in or not, just because they were fortunate enough to have a seat at the table when all this went down.

[CanadianRugger]

Just now, TIWIT said:

The current system isn't working. The game has been slowly dying for years - less participation, smaller crowds, just generally declining interest - all of it leading to less money to go around. And now Super League wants to keep it all. The pandemic has merely accelerated the process. 

If the game is not currently in crisis mode it soon will be when Sky's offer for the new contract comes in. And yet you and others here just keep going on as if once we get rid of the distracting North Americans everything will be perfect when you're really just whistling past the graveyard.

 

I personally feel there is room for all the traditional clubs but also new expansion sides in the competition(s).  The way forward is two leagues as opposed to three with an equal distribution of media revenue across the entire competition.  The goal should be to bring every club within these two leagues up to the same standard with the long term goal being to greatly increase the overall value of the sport in the NH in its entirety.  

I would also like to see a return of the Super 8s format as I think it's very exciting and was definitely a highlight of Toronto's time in the Championship.  Clubs shouldn't have to worry about television funding from year to year though and this would eliminate that divisive part of the sport.  I also don't believe in television exclusivity either, as clubs should be able to sign their own local media deals on top of National deals.

The salary cap could be set with a minimum and maximum as well, lets say £1 million and £4 million which I think would be very fair and could be adjusted on an annual basis.  Some clubs would probably be forced to merge but it would be very healthy for the game long term.    

[Rupert Prince]

1 hour ago, CanadianRugger said:

I personally feel there is room for all the traditional clubs but also new expansion sides in the competition(s).  The way forward is two leagues as opposed to three with an equal distribution of media revenue across the entire competition.  The goal should be to bring every club within these two leagues up to the same standard with the long term goal being to greatly increase the overall value of the sport in the NH in its entirety.  

I would also like to see a return of the Super 8s format as I think it's very exciting and was definitely a highlight of Toronto's time in the Championship.  Clubs shouldn't have to worry about television funding from year to year though and this would eliminate that divisive part of the sport.  I also don't believe in television exclusivity either, as clubs should be able to sign their own local media deals on top of National deals.

The salary cap could be set with a minimum and maximum as well, lets say £1 million and £4 million which I think would be very fair and could be adjusted on an annual basis.  Some clubs would probably be forced to merge but it would be very healthy for the game long term.    

I dont think I've seen a more wrong headed post in any sport any time anywhere.

[Mr Frisky]

1 hour ago, CanadianRugger said:

I personally feel there is room for all the traditional clubs but also new expansion sides in the competition(s).  The way forward is two leagues as opposed to three with an equal distribution of media revenue across the entire competition.  The goal should be to bring every club within these two leagues up to the same standard with the long term goal being to greatly increase the overall value of the sport in the NH in its entirety.  

I would also like to see a return of the Super 8s format as I think it's very exciting and was definitely a highlight of Toronto's time in the Championship.  Clubs shouldn't have to worry about television funding from year to year though and this would eliminate that divisive part of the sport.  I also don't believe in television exclusivity either, as clubs should be able to sign their own local media deals on top of National deals.

The salary cap could be set with a minimum and maximum as well, lets say £1 million and £4 million which I think would be very fair and could be adjusted on an annual basis.  Some clubs would probably be forced to merge but it would be very healthy for the game long term.    

For the mergers are you talking about Toronto, Ottawa & New York??

[Quolls2020]

   2 hours ago,  DimmestStar said: 

“The sport cannot afford to commit £2million a year to someone who openly admitted he didn't put much time or effort into his application. He doesn't even like Rugby League and is simply looking for ways to promote his grooming products in new markets. IMO.

He has insulted our sport and BTW his organisation still owes the players their wages whether they are or are not admitted back in. He has said that he will not pay unless he gets what he wants but sorry he should pay up anyway. He has been involved in the club all along right? He's playing a game of emotional blackmail.”

 

I think the first paragraph is accurate:

“LiVolsi admitted it hadn’t had his full attention and that he hadn’t applied the necessary resources to it. He held his hand up, asked for a second chance, and the clubs have taken a fair and reasonable approach and the ball is now in their court to deliver.” SL statement.

And

Members of the media were introduced to Toronto’s prospective new owner Carlo LiVolsi on Wednesday. This is everything he had to say. (Abridged)

“Essentially, I’ve been the beauty distribution business servicing major retailers worldwide for the last 18 years. I own about 12, 13 businesses that the majority are predominantly in beauty space.“

“The reason I’m interested in the Wolfpack is very simply that I’m a founding shareholder, so I know enough about the team, I’m not a rugby enthusiast but I love sports. I’ve played a lot of competitive sports internationally and travelled a lot for them.“

“I own a brand that I believe will help monetise the league and the team. It’s called Wolf Grooming, we’re going to launch next year in the UK and this brand itself will help catapult into a marketing machine. From my perspective, grooming brands are a sector of the marketplace that’s worth a lot of money, a lot more than a Super League team would go for. I believe that by taking the brand itself, building a story around the guys, the players and injecting that into the core of what Super League is today will help it succeed.“

“So if I’m a partner and I believe I’m going to be one of the better partners because I have a successful track record and I know how synergistically I can build this league through Wolf Grooming and other things”

“The premise of Wolf essentially is focused on the men’s grooming category which is a multi-billion dollar segment of the marketplace. My strategy always was when I spoke to David that there’s a lot of synergy between Wolf and Wolfpack, let’s get players involved and the Super League involved. It was always supposed to happen but it always got kyboshed at the end because David had his ulterior motives with other things. Wolf essentially is a lifestyle brand that encompasses a shaving cream, a shampoo, freestyling products and a moisturiser.“

“We’re coming out with a line called Wolf Black which is CBD enhanced products at a high end. The products themselves perform really, really well. The products are all sustainably made. The goal here is to partner with the Super League and its teams and almost become a distributor of this product and market them to the 20 million eyeballs that see Super League through a year and build almost like what Red Bull has done with Formula 1 and all these sports they’ve advertised in. I have a very robust plan I believe can make this successful. The male is the largest portion of the fanbase in rugby and I believe we can build this into a $100 million dollar revenue-wise for Super League over five years.”

“My job is to essentially make sure we have the money and build our business through the Wolf Grooming brand I’ve pitched to the Super League.“

Seems to me that he is saying
He is buying in to promote his product
He wants Super League to Promote his product.
He wants Super League to pay for this promotion.
And because of the greatness of his product he will not accept anything less than staying in Super League (forever?)
It doesn’t matter that they may have few players
He is not that interested in a Rugby League.
He walked away from the Wolfpack when he didn’t get his way.

The second paragraph is a bit more difficult as the ownership (and/or control) of the Wolfpack is a little murky. Perez and other initial owners and executives left under Argyle, and apparently LiVolsi was one of them.

he has given an undertaking to pay outstanding salaries if granted entry into Super League but at the moment he only appears as a potential  owner of the Wolfpack and as such, has no current obligation. 

 

 

[Quolls2020]

There are 4 possibilities

yes

no

maybe

we’ll go our own way.

And each possibility has other possibilities contained therein.

yes.

1. Come back, all is forgiven. We treated you very badly, we will share all our money with you, even though you didn’t live up to any of the conditions that you agreed with and left us in the lurch at the last moment, and we are doing this because all our followers are going to rush out and buy men’s grooming products named after An opposition team and make us a lot of money. And we wont relegate you...ever...

2. Come back under the old conditions....but we’re watching you.

3. Come back under the Old conditions, but we want a big bond as insurance when you go the way you went before.

4. Start again, under the old new conditions, with an insurance bond, we will look at the conditions if you get promoted to SL.

No.

1. Go away, we want sponsors, we are not sponsors.

2. Go away, no future in you or your business plan.

3. Go away....and tell your NA mates that you’ve stuffed it for them too.

maybe

1. Do your business plan...again.

2. Get a new potential owner (is there something smelly about this one) and do a new business plan

3. Wait a year...next year could be ###### anyway. Consolidate your plan and your organisation and we will give your plan due consideration

4. Get your own television coverage and we will talk about it. (Not coverage that you pay for)

we’ll go our own way

1. If you don’t love us, we will start our own league with our other NA teams, the public will love us because we smell nice.

2. WE will wait until SL falls apart, because without us it surely will. We will buy it, run it and the brits and the French will all smell nice. Haven’t you read our business plan.

 

of course there are many other possibilities including that a no will simply be the end of them...and the world and Rugby and super league will just go on.

 

[RobertAM]

22 minutes ago, Quolls2020 said:

There are 4 possibilities

yes

no

maybe

we’ll go our own way.

And each possibility has other possibilities contained therein.

yes.

1. Come back, all is forgiven. We treated you very badly, we will share all our money with you, even though you didn’t live up to any of the conditions that you agreed with and left us in the lurch at the last moment, and we are doing this because all our followers are going to rush out and buy men’s grooming products named after An opposition team and make us a lot of money. And we wont relegate you...ever...

2. Come back under the old conditions....but we’re watching you.

3. Come back under the Old conditions, but we want a big bond as insurance when you go the way you went before.

4. Start again, under the old new conditions, with an insurance bond, we will look at the conditions if you get promoted to SL.

No.

1. Go away, we want sponsors, we are not sponsors.

2. Go away, no future in you or your business plan.

3. Go away....and tell your NA mates that you’ve stuffed it for them too.

maybe

1. Do your business plan...again.

2. Get a new potential owner (is there something smelly about this one) and do a new business plan

3. Wait a year...next year could be ###### anyway. Consolidate your plan and your organisation and we will give your plan due consideration

4. Get your own television coverage and we will talk about it. (Not coverage that you pay for)

we’ll go our own way

1. If you don’t love us, we will start our own league with our other NA teams, the public will love us because we smell nice.

2. WE will wait until SL falls apart, because without us it surely will. We will buy it, run it and the brits and the French will all smell nice. Haven’t you read our business plan.

 

of course there are many other possibilities including that a no will simply be the end of them...and the world and Rugby and super league will just go on.

 

someone has lotsa time on their hands

[TIWIT]

1 hour ago, Quolls2020 said:

   2 hours ago,  DimmestStar said: 

“The sport cannot afford to commit £2million a year to someone who openly admitted he didn't put much time or effort into his application. He doesn't even like Rugby League and is simply looking for ways to promote his grooming products in new markets. IMO.

He has insulted our sport and BTW his organisation still owes the players their wages whether they are or are not admitted back in. He has said that he will not pay unless he gets what he wants but sorry he should pay up anyway. He has been involved in the club all along right? He's playing a game of emotional blackmail.”

 

I think the first paragraph is accurate:

“LiVolsi admitted it hadn’t had his full attention and that he hadn’t applied the necessary resources to it. He held his hand up, asked for a second chance, and the clubs have taken a fair and reasonable approach and the ball is now in their court to deliver.” SL statement.

And

Members of the media were introduced to Toronto’s prospective new owner Carlo LiVolsi on Wednesday. This is everything he had to say. (Abridged)

“Essentially, I’ve been the beauty distribution business servicing major retailers worldwide for the last 18 years. I own about 12, 13 businesses that the majority are predominantly in beauty space.“

“The reason I’m interested in the Wolfpack is very simply that I’m a founding shareholder, so I know enough about the team, I’m not a rugby enthusiast but I love sports. I’ve played a lot of competitive sports internationally and travelled a lot for them.“

“I own a brand that I believe will help monetise the league and the team. It’s called Wolf Grooming, we’re going to launch next year in the UK and this brand itself will help catapult into a marketing machine. From my perspective, grooming brands are a sector of the marketplace that’s worth a lot of money, a lot more than a Super League team would go for. I believe that by taking the brand itself, building a story around the guys, the players and injecting that into the core of what Super League is today will help it succeed.“

“So if I’m a partner and I believe I’m going to be one of the better partners because I have a successful track record and I know how synergistically I can build this league through Wolf Grooming and other things”

“The premise of Wolf essentially is focused on the men’s grooming category which is a multi-billion dollar segment of the marketplace. My strategy always was when I spoke to David that there’s a lot of synergy between Wolf and Wolfpack, let’s get players involved and the Super League involved. It was always supposed to happen but it always got kyboshed at the end because David had his ulterior motives with other things. Wolf essentially is a lifestyle brand that encompasses a shaving cream, a shampoo, freestyling products and a moisturiser.“

“We’re coming out with a line called Wolf Black which is CBD enhanced products at a high end. The products themselves perform really, really well. The products are all sustainably made. The goal here is to partner with the Super League and its teams and almost become a distributor of this product and market them to the 20 million eyeballs that see Super League through a year and build almost like what Red Bull has done with Formula 1 and all these sports they’ve advertised in. I have a very robust plan I believe can make this successful. The male is the largest portion of the fanbase in rugby and I believe we can build this into a $100 million dollar revenue-wise for Super League over five years.”

“My job is to essentially make sure we have the money and build our business through the Wolf Grooming brand I’ve pitched to the Super League.“

Seems to me that he is saying
He is buying in to promote his product
He wants Super League to Promote his product.
He wants Super League to pay for this promotion.
And because of the greatness of his product he will not accept anything less than staying in Super League (forever?)
It doesn’t matter that they may have few players
He is not that interested in a Rugby League.
He walked away from the Wolfpack when he didn’t get his way.

The second paragraph is a bit more difficult as the ownership (and/or control) of the Wolfpack is a little murky. Perez and other initial owners and executives left under Argyle, and apparently LiVolsi was one of them.

he has given an undertaking to pay outstanding salaries if granted entry into Super League but at the moment he only appears as a potential  owner of the Wolfpack and as such, has no current obligation. 

 

 

I am impressed.

That you didn't break your neck making the leaps necessary to get from here to DimmestStar's assertions.

[Quolls2020]

No leaps...just the facts ma’am...

[TIWIT]

8 minutes ago, Quolls2020 said:

No leaps...just the facts ma’am...

You would be laughed out of court.

[Big Picture]

A report in The Times on Friday was headlined ‘This is not just about Toronto, this is a crossroads for Super League’ - what next for the Wolfpack?

[Quolls2020]

26 minutes ago, RobertAM said:

someone has lotsa time on their hands

Yes...and no...

currently in Covid lockdown for 144 days..no leaving the house except for emergency reasons.

so one could say that I have plenty of time...but no...I frequently wonder where the time goes.

I have been doing a bit of work on the effects of Covid on the different football codes and leagues and the current state of affairs in Super League are very interesting.

I have, in the way past, been involved in the research of the origins of modern football, it’s leagues, organisations and rules on a paid, commission, commercial and voluntary basis.

Currently I am working on an in-depth project regarding the evolution of one particular code as well as several other projects not related to sport. The practical research into one I am doing on alcohol is proving very beneficial in my current circumstances.

So, to cut it short, most of the information on what’s (allegedly) going on I have collected and most automatically.  Reading it takes some time, and if I’m mixing projects, remembering takes even longer.

 

 

 

[Quolls2020]

21 minutes ago, TIWIT said:

You would be laughed out of court.

It could be argued that the current situation is laughable...

[Quolls2020]

23 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

A report in The Times on Friday was headlined ‘This is not just about Toronto, this is a crossroads for Super League’ - what next for the Wolfpack?

Pity there is a paywall.

[Oldbear]

2 hours ago, Quolls2020 said:

maybe

1. Do your business plan...again.

2. Get a new potential owner (is there something smelly about this one) and do a new business plan

3. Wait a year...next year could be ###### anyway. Consolidate your plan and your organisation and we will give your plan due consideration

4. Get your own television coverage and we will talk about it. (Not coverage that you pay for)

Of your possibilities I think these are the most likely. There is no doubt that a more robust business plan is going to be demanded, especially as there has to be the possibility of TWP not being able to play any home games in 2021, and if that’s the case the TV coverage becomes essential if the team is not going to disappear from sight in Canada (and I don’t mean hidden behind the Sportsnet World paywall). The reality is that nothing will happen in 2021, let’s face it the sport in the UK may not be able to function as normal next year and with the possibility that the World Cup could also be deferred to 2022 then by telling TWP that they get an extra year to formulate a robust business plan, as well as actually put some infrastructure in place so as the past visa sagas are avoided could be a good thing.

Whether we like it or not Covid may change the structure of the sport. Although I would hate to see any club go under it will be a miracle if the number of pro clubs does not reduce as a result of the pandemic, especially if the 2021 season starts under the same restrictions that are currently in place.

[Quolls2020]

4 minutes ago, Oldbear said:

Whether we like it or not Covid may change the structure of the sport. Although I would hate to see any club go under it will be a miracle if the number of pro clubs does not reduce as a result of the pandemic, especially if the 2021 season starts under the same restrictions that are currently in place.

It is very unfortunate that everyday the Covid news in Europe makes a normal sports year in 2021 seem very unlikely. 
 

[Big Picture]

11 minutes ago, Quolls2020 said:

It is very unfortunate that everyday the Covid news in Europe makes a normal sports year in 2021 seem very unlikely. 
 

That's only because the decision makers out there either don't know that Sweden beating coronavirus with herd immunity, expert claims or they're willfully ignoring it.  Other countries should copy what Sweden has done.

[Oldbear]

8 minutes ago, Quolls2020 said:

It is very unfortunate that everyday the Covid news in Europe makes a normal sports year in 2021 seem very unlikely. 
 

It’s pretty much the same in NA, here in Canada our PM is hinting that the most populous provinces of Ontario, Quebec, BC and Alberta are entering the second wave and of course south of the border is a complete disaster. What that means for sports world wide is extremely worrying as even the NA mega leagues of NFL, NBA, MLB and NHL are totally reliant on TV money, and there just might not be as much of that available in the future, given that advertising revenues are likely to be hit as global economies fall into recession.

[John WP Fan]

21 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

That's only because the decision makers out there either don't know that Sweden beating coronavirus with herd immunity, expert claims or they're willfully ignoring it.  Other countries should copy what Sweden has done.

And wind up with more than twice the death rate as Canada? No thanks.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2020/09/25/sweden-coronavirus-debate-lockdown-new-cases/

 

[JohnM]

8 hours ago, Big Picture said:

.... 

.... 

[Whippet13]

14 minutes ago, JohnM said:

Apart from the fact that this is politically contentious, what secret does Sweden have that  Conservative England,  Labour Wales. SNP Scotland, France, Spain, Italy, Germany, etc etc etc does not have?

No need to add politics, the thread is already veering dangerously off topic here.

[Whippet13]

7 hours ago, Oldbear said:

Of your possibilities I think these are the most likely. There is no doubt that a more robust business plan is going to be demanded, especially as there has to be the possibility of TWP not being able to play any home games in 2021, and if that’s the case the TV coverage becomes essential if the team is not going to disappear from sight in Canada (and I don’t mean hidden behind the Sportsnet World paywall). The reality is that nothing will happen in 2021, let’s face it the sport in the UK may not be able to function as normal next year and with the possibility that the World Cup could also be deferred to 2022 then by telling TWP that they get an extra year to formulate a robust business plan, as well as actually put some infrastructure in place so as the past visa sagas are avoided could be a good thing.

Whether we like it or not Covid may change the structure of the sport. Although I would hate to see any club go under it will be a miracle if the number of pro clubs does not reduce as a result of the pandemic, especially if the 2021 season starts under the same restrictions that are currently in place.

Agree with this. The current 4 week TWP delay is not simply for them to update their bid. It also keeps SL at 11 clubs without the need for a 11/12 club decision, which buys the SL clubs valuable time to try and understand what the 2021 (and beyond) financial landscape will be like based on Covid impacts and the new TV deal.

[JohnM]

1 hour ago, Whippet13 said:

No need to add politics, the thread is already veering dangerously off topic here.

Ok. 

[Rupert Prince]

12 hours ago, Big Picture said:

That's only because the decision makers out there either don't know that Sweden beating coronavirus with herd immunity, expert claims or they're willfully ignoring it.  Other countries should copy what Sweden has done.

Sweden are a long way from the herd immunity they were seeking.  Pro rata the U.K. they are not much different to us and massively more deaths than next door Norway

[Man of Kent]

Getting it back on topic...

Robert Elstone wants proof it is worth having a Super League team in Canada

Discussions also ongoing about whether to go with 11 or 12 next year.