The General 'Toronto Wolfpack' Discussion Thread

[RobertAM]

6 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

Toronto had better crowds for 1 club playing against the likes of Rochdale, Batley and Gloucestershire All Golds, than half of Major League Rugby (Union) combined.

There is real potential for RL to be the "professional code" in America with crowds etc whilst union remains a largely college pursuit.

yep there are a number of people talking rubbish about what will and will not work in NA in 2020 when they are still at home fighting battles from 1895. The world, in the digital age, is a village and a product as good as RL marketed properly could, if it wished, eclipse RU but those who claim to be it's guardians seem to want to keep it mired as a small time local pursuit.

[RobertAM]

4 hours ago, Newguy said:

Toronto also ran out of money and didn't pay players etc, most of the MRL clubs are going concerns unlike Toronto.

All teams are going concerns until the money runs out. This crisis isnt over yet.. Covid and 2021 will be the great leveller.

[Harry Stottle]

7 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

As they in 1895 realised, we're the entertaining game designed to get people to watch.

Correct me if I'm wrong Tommy, in previous conversations about the game don't you and a few others of your generation on these pages struggle with the fact that some of the older posters state that the game was more entertaining through being less structured as recent as the 80's, and here you are reverting back 125 years.

PS there were no rule changes for 7/8 years, it was the same boring game but with the better exponents.

Just saying.

[Harry Stottle]

6 hours ago, Whippet13 said:

If that's the case why didn't they simply say "###### off, you're clearly a charlatan"? Answer is that SL still want to know what's in it for them. It's a business transaction and we'll know who blinks first in another 3 weeks. How will it go? Haven't got a clue, but if it's no to TWP then I expect a money grab and an 11 team SL in 2021.

Yep in agreement with that, ulteria motives by the clubs can be the only reason LiVolsi has been given a second opportunity, but it gnarls at me as to why he was so completely ill-equipped with the first submission. I have done quite a bit of interviewing people for employment in my time and those who come unprepared didn't get a second chance.

It seems obvious to me LiVolsi alone was not the sole architect of the original draft he must have had some assistance from those who had previous dealings with the RFL and SL and I would suggest the much lauded Bob Hunter would be the advisor in chief, so why so unprepared if it meant the clubs future going forward it just doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

Your statement "It's a buisness transaction" I think can be attributed as much to LiVolsi as to the SL clubs, my guess is the money he would spend on the Wolfpack will be treated as the marketing budget for his 'Wolf Grooming' enterprise, and if the return doesn't realise the expectations he wants he will be off, it's a gut feeling I have and I wouldn't trust him.

Will he get the full funding, relieved of travel and subsistance costs for visiting teams and protection from relegation for *3 years, I doubt it, if they can have no relegation surely other SL clubs would demand it, which could mean a closed shop, SKY may just have some influence on that would they want to loose the jeapordy games and Championship play offs from their schedules?

It is all "buisness transactions" Whippy, interesting times ahead. 

*Could the three years relegation exemption he wants be in his mind as the timescale alloted to see if the grooming buisness will come to fruition? Just a thought.

[Robin Evans]

50 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

 

*Could the three years relegation exemption he wants be in his mind as the timescale alloted to see if the grooming buisness will come to fruition? Just a thought.

Cynic.

[Tommygilf]

1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

Correct me if I'm wrong Tommy, in previous conversations about the game don't you and a few others of your generation on these pages struggle with the fact that some of the older posters state that the game was more entertaining through being less structured as recent as the 80's, and here you are reverting back 125 years.

PS there were no rule changes for 7/8 years, it was the same boring game but with the better exponents.

Just saying.

So what?

[Harry Stottle]

1 hour ago, Robin Evans said:

Cynic.

Soothsaying more like!

[ATLANTISMAN]

3 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Yep in agreement with that, ulteria motives by the clubs can be the only reason LiVolsi has been given a second opportunity, but it gnarls at me as to why he was so completely ill-equipped with the first submission. I have done quite a bit of interviewing people for employment in my time and those who come unprepared didn't get a second chance.

It seems obvious to me LiVolsi alone was not the sole architect of the original draft he must have had some assistance from those who had previous dealings with the RFL and SL and I would suggest the much lauded Bob Hunter would be the advisor in chief, so why so unprepared if it meant the clubs future going forward it just doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

Your statement "It's a buisness transaction" I think can be attributed as much to LiVolsi as to the SL clubs, my guess is the money he would spend on the Wolfpack will be treated as the marketing budget for his 'Wolf Grooming' enterprise, and if the return doesn't realise the expectations he wants he will be off, it's a gut feeling I have and I wouldn't trust him.

Will he get the full funding, relieved of travel and subsistance costs for visiting teams and protection from relegation for *3 years, I doubt it, if they can have no relegation surely other SL clubs would demand it, which could mean a closed shop, SKY may just have some influence on that would they want to loose the jeapordy games and Championship play offs from their schedules?

It is all "buisness transactions" Whippy, interesting times ahead. 

*Could the three years relegation exemption he wants be in his mind as the timescale alloted to see if the grooming buisness will come to fruition? Just a thought.

Harry as I have said umpteen times on here its a FRONT and anyone with half a brain know it.

Oldest game in town GOOD COP BAD COP LOL:)

P 

[Lowdesert]

3 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Yep in agreement with that, ulteria motives by the clubs can be the only reason LiVolsi has been given a second opportunity, but it gnarls at me as to why he was so completely ill-equipped with the first submission. I have done quite a bit of interviewing people for employment in my time and those who come unprepared didn't get a second chance.

It seems obvious to me LiVolsi alone was not the sole architect of the original draft he must have had some assistance from those who had previous dealings with the RFL and SL and I would suggest the much lauded Bob Hunter would be the advisor in chief, so why so unprepared if it meant the clubs future going forward it just doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

Your statement "It's a buisness transaction" I think can be attributed as much to LiVolsi as to the SL clubs, my guess is the money he would spend on the Wolfpack will be treated as the marketing budget for his 'Wolf Grooming' enterprise, and if the return doesn't realise the expectations he wants he will be off, it's a gut feeling I have and I wouldn't trust him.

Will he get the full funding, relieved of travel and subsistance costs for visiting teams and protection from relegation for *3 years, I doubt it, if they can have no relegation surely other SL clubs would demand it, which could mean a closed shop, SKY may just have some influence on that would they want to loose the jeapordy games and Championship play offs from their schedules?

It is all "buisness transactions" Whippy, interesting times ahead. 

*Could the three years relegation exemption he wants be in his mind as the timescale alloted to see if the grooming buisness will come to fruition? Just a thought.

Missing, is the requirements given by SL.  Their criteria.  I posted similar at the time as it would be good to see what this criteria actually consisted of, if any.

I suspect (my take on it) that minimal info was requested other than for a presentation and as a result, the SL CEO’s asked for more. If that is the case, (allowing someone to prepare it without giving all of the ‘criteria,) it’s a pretty amateurish thing to do, but not something I’d put past SL and Elstone.

The above is plausible as if full criteria was given and then more was asked for, we’d have heard this from the aptly named Bob Hunter.

[Harry Stottle]

22 minutes ago, Lowdesert said:

Missing, is the requirements given by SL.  Their criteria.  I posted similar at the time as it would be good to see what this criteria actually consisted of, if any.

I suspect (my take on it) that minimal info was requested other than for a presentation and as a result, the SL CEO’s asked for more. If that is the case, (allowing someone to prepare it without giving all of the ‘criteria,) it’s a pretty amateurish thing to do, but not something I’d put past SL and Elstone.

The above is plausible as if full criteria was given and then more was asked for, we’d have heard this from the aptly named Bob Hunter.

I would strongly suggest that if as Elstone says LiVolsi was told what RFL/SL required in his presentation and he did that, then they tell him it is not good enough whilst "shifting the goalposts" we would have heard a cry of foul from Canada almost immediately, that LiVolsi admits he could have prepared and presented much better tells me that Elstone is playing it by the book.

[TIWIT]

16 hours ago, RobertAM said:

Gotta love that Churchillian spirit!

Or Chicken Little.

[Man of Kent]

9 hours ago, RobertAM said:

yep there are a number of people talking rubbish about what will and will not work in NA in 2020 when they are still at home fighting battles from 1895. The world, in the digital age, is a village and a product as good as RL marketed properly could, if it wished, eclipse RU but those who claim to be it's guardians seem to want to keep it mired as a small time local pursuit.

Oh, the lack of self-awareness...

[Robin Evans]

9 hours ago, RobertAM said:

The world, in the digital age, is a village and a product as good as RL marketed properly could, if it wished, eclipse RU 

Eh?????

Union is played all over the world and commands much greater presence. The last world Cup in Japan was testimony to that. 

The 6 nations charge a minimum of £100/ticket... thats if you can get any, for a product folks clamour after that we in league circles regard as a sub-standard product.

Their international sales are through the roof. Their merchandise numbers make your eyes water and the hospitality packages,  which sell out ridiculously fast are extortionate.....

Yet all we need to do is market our game properly to eclipse this???.

Go on then.... I shouldn't,  but.... give us a clue..... how?????

Cos if you have the answers cocker we're in for a cataclysmic shift in popularity between the codes

[Man of Kent]

2 minutes ago, Robin Evans said:

Eh?????

Union is played all over the world and commands much greater presence. The last world Cup in Japan was testimony to that. 

The 6 nations charge a minimum of £100/ticket... thats if you can get any, for a product folks clamour after that we in league circles regard as a sub-standard product.

Their international sales are through the roof. Their merchandise numbers make your eyes water and the hospitality packages,  which sell out ridiculously fast are extortionate.....

Yet all we need to do is market our game properly to eclipse this???.

Go on then.... I shouldn't,  but.... give us a clue..... how?????

Cos if you have the answers cocker we're in for a cataclysmic shift in popularity between the codes

There’s a lot of dreamers out there but the most deluded think rugby league can undo more than 150 years of history and snuff out rugby union with good marketing.

[Robin Evans]

2 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

There’s a lot of dreamers out there but the most deluded think rugby league can undo more than 150 years of history and snuff out rugby union with good marketing.

I'm looking for a "shakes head" emoticon.... 

Nuts init?

[RobertAM]

16 minutes ago, Robin Evans said:

I'm looking for a "shakes head" emoticon.... 

Nuts init?

Impossible to encourage people who have already given up...Union is barely on the radar screen in North America and there's over 400 million people here..maybe start there??

[Robin Evans]

15 minutes ago, RobertAM said:

Impossible to encourage people who have already given up...Union is barely on the radar screen in North America and there's over 400 million people here..maybe start there??

League can't get close in its own backyard. In the USA folks don't know we exist. Yet we can eclipse union?

Mate.... with all respect in the world cocker, send me a van load of whatever you are on..... 

 

[CanadianRugger]

15 hours ago, SL17 said:

TWP are fighting a battle that has been in place since the conception of Super League.

There is no fault with expansion, never has.

The issue remains with SL. The games development was put on hold in order to watch the game unfold. 
 

Now they want to dictate to a sport they have ruined.

Well done SL..

Thought you were done posting in this thread?

[CanadianRugger]

13 minutes ago, Robin Evans said:

League can't get close in its own backyard. In the USA folks don't know we exist. Yet we can eclipse union?

Mate.... with all respect in the world cocker, send me a van load of whatever you are on..... 

 

With an attitude like yours, it certainly will not.

[Robin Evans]

1 minute ago, CanadianRugger said:

With an attitude like yours, it certainly will not.

Aye.... of course..... its my fault.....

Go on then.... giz a clue..... how do you eclipse union???

[Big Picture]

10 hours ago, RobertAM said:

yep there are a number of people talking rubbish about what will and will not work in NA in 2020 when they are still at home fighting battles from 1895. The world, in the digital age, is a village and a product as good as RL marketed properly could, if it wished, eclipse RU but those who claim to be it's guardians seem to want to keep it mired as a small time local pursuit.

For that to happen though, RL first needs something to market and it doesn't have that now.  This product can not be marketed successfully via the small time traditional clubs because their presence at the top just reinforces the negative stereotypes about the game believed by most of the minority among the British public who even know that two versions of rugby exist.  A better vehicle with which to market the game is needed first and in view of those negative stereotypes that might need the game to be rebranded too.

28 minutes ago, Robin Evans said:

League can't get close in its own backyard. In the USA folks don't know we exist. Yet we can eclipse union?

Mate.... with all respect in the world cocker, send me a van load of whatever you are on.....

You are right that it can't be done within the sport's present structure in the UK.  That doesn't mean that it can't be done at all though.

[Robin Evans]

8 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

 

You are right that it can't be done within the sport's present structure in the UK.  That doesn't mean that it can't be done at all though.

Go on....giz a clue

[Big Picture]

2 minutes ago, Robin Evans said:

Go on....giz a clue

It would require a new built-for-purpose league such as I have mentioned in previous posts which uses new markets like Toronto and New York as the means to succeed in other markets such as London.

[Lowdesert]

3 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

I would strongly suggest that if as Elstone says LiVolsi was told what RFL/SL required in his presentation and he did that, then they tell him it is not good enough whilst "shifting the goalposts" we would have heard a cry of foul from Canada almost immediately, that LiVolsi admits he could have prepared and presented much better tells me that Elstone is playing it by the book.

I don’t agree on that as I think the fine detail was missing regarding financing the club, day to day, repaying owed salaries contingency and developments of players going forward. 

I can also see Elstone asking for even more detail no matter what is returned by TWP as well as further delving into the viability of the Canadian game which Wood doesn’t appear to have done to the (now) satisfaction of SL.

 

[Derwent]

1 hour ago, RobertAM said:

Impossible to encourage people who have already given up...Union is barely on the radar screen in North America and there's over 400 million people here..maybe start there??

How much do you reckon World Rugby has spent trying to crack North America ? It’s tens of millions. Yet by your own admission it’s barely registered with people there. So what should we do differently that they haven’t tried ? Or is it simply a case of you can lead a horse to water and all that ?