The General 'Toronto Wolfpack' Discussion Thread

[Kayakman]

1 minute ago, Robin Evans said:

You are the opposite. Predictions of violins and angels..... despite the recent screw up pointing otherwise.....

Its all going to be Okay....its all going to be alright...calm yourself.   For the life of me I don't know where such a "Can't Do" attitude emanates from....its not good karma.  If you say you can you will, if you constantly tell yourself and others you can't, you won't.

its really that simple.

[GUBRATS]

2 hours ago, Kayakman said:

There are thousands who say it cannot be done, there are thousands who predict failure....I'm not one of them in any way...neither are TWP fans....that is why RL needs Toronto so badly.

Edgar Guest ?

[Oxford]

2 hours ago, Kayakman said:

There are thousands who say it cannot be done, there are thousands who predict failure....I'm not one of them in any way...neither are TWP fans....that is why RL needs Toronto so badly.

That's all they ever say.

 

2 hours ago, Kayakman said:

For the life of me I don't know where such a "Can't Do" attitude emanates from...

It's all they got to say.

[Les Tonks Sidestep]

5 hours ago, Dave T said:

Indeed - people criticise the game for doing things without a plan - all you are asking for is a plan, and that is being mocked!

It is entirely reasonable to set a target on what you are aiming for. That may be modest - something like the NA clubs funding themselves +£1m into SLE per year within 10 years. That would probably mean commercial and media deals worth £5m per year based on two teams. 

That could mean with 10 existing teams they benefit from £4m of existing funding, plus £1m of NA funding - a further £5m per year. 

Those numbers are just illustrative, but there is no reason why we wouldn't have a number in as an ambition. 

Unless I've completely misunderstood your figures, £5m a year in (£1m net) after potentially spending £36m+ over 10 years doesn't sound like a good, or even modest, return on investment to me?

[Dave T]

37 minutes ago, Les Tonks Sidestep said:

Unless I've completely misunderstood your figures, £5m a year in (£1m net) after potentially spending £36m+ over 10 years doesn't sound like a good, or even modest, return on investment to me?

There would obviously be question marks over whether you would fund them up front. 

It's one of my concerns, people keep saying give them the money, bug then Ottawa would need the money, and maybe New York, and Toulouse, and suddenly you are spending £9m per year on France and Canada. 

Im not sure why people are so concerned with expecting this to be funded by investors, because we sure as hell don't have that kind of money to invest in France and Canada. 

[Kayakman]

Don't anybody worry themselves silly over this...its all Okay....its going to work out...you just watch.

First we all have to wait for a formal announcement...then we will go from there.

Its all good and there is a bright light starting to appear over a new horizon.  Prepare yourselves!!!!!, "It appears to be a blinding light peaking over!!!"

It could even burn out the retinas!

"Await The New Dawn With The Pack!"

[Quolls2020]

2 hours ago, Kayakman said:

Its all good and there is a bright light starting to appear over a new horizon.  Prepare yourselves!!!!!, "It appears to be a blinding light peaking over!!!"

Not all flash again!!!”

[Oxford]

8 hours ago, SL17 said:

Not sure why Ottawa should be placed in your equation! They are an unknown entity.

Comparing is them is pretty obsolete at present.

It's part of the narrative SL, and simple enough. It's the pieces of the cake question and always based around is there enough to go round?

Add to that an even scarier picture of a future unfolding and the UK recipe for keeping things "In House" is complete.

What it really reflects in all honesty is a failure to get more pie (not pizzas) by SL for SL clubs to work with.

[Hela Wigmen]

If LiVolsi wants Super League rugby and nothing more, what happens in year two should Toronto get relegated next year? Given they have seven or eight players and are looking at a two point deduction, it’s a distinct possibility. I would hope that this is something that’s been asked of him. 

[RP London]

19 hours ago, dkw said:

No, you cant just bring in a second Wigan team in Red and White. They will need to be distinctly different.....so make them wear white and red instead.

and be from "just outside" Wigan (but not quite)?

[Les Tonks Sidestep]

9 hours ago, SL17 said:

Not sure why Ottawa should be placed in your equation! They are an unknown entity.

Comparing is them is pretty obsolete at present.

Because if they (or other future NA clubs) get to SL they'll want the same deal as TWP. Ignoring that in any cost/benefit analysis would be foolish. 

[Dave T]

9 hours ago, SL17 said:

Not sure why Ottawa should be placed in your equation! They are an unknown entity.

Comparing is them is pretty obsolete at present.

 

1 hour ago, Oxford said:

It's part of the narrative SL, and simple enough. It's the pieces of the cake question and always based around is there enough to go round?

Add to that an even scarier picture of a future unfolding and the UK recipe for keeping things "In House" is complete.

What it really reflects in all honesty is a failure to get more pie (not pizzas) by SL for SL clubs to work with.

This is tiresome Oxford, the narrative that we should not discuss this is the problem, not actually wanting a plan.

Your ability to constantly ignore what people are saying and suggest there is an underlying agenda and we shouldn't discuss it is boring, my point specifically addresses aiming for a bigger pie. 

[Dave T]

9 hours ago, SL17 said:

Not sure why Ottawa should be placed in your equation! They are an unknown entity.

Comparing is them is pretty obsolete at present.

 

13 minutes ago, Les Tonks Sidestep said:

Because if they (or other future NA clubs) get to SL they'll want the same deal as TWP. Ignoring that in any cost/benefit analysis would be foolish. 

This.

By not factoring in the potential for Ottawa and Toulouse in SL we will make exactly the same mistakes as what we are trying to clean up now.

[silverback]

15 hours ago, Kayakman said:

There are thousands who say it cannot be done, there are thousands who predict failure....I'm not one of them in any way...neither are TWP fans....that is why RL needs Toronto so badly.

If some a those thousands a fans had a chipped a 10$ spot each you might a still been here,

 To get a few more whoooopins.

[Oxford]

1 minute ago, Dave T said:

This is tiresome Oxford, the narrative that we should not discuss this is the problem, not actually wanting a plan.

Your ability to constantly ignore what people are saying and suggest there is an underlying agenda and we shouldn't discuss it is boring, my point specifically addresses aiming for a bigger pie. 

Morning Dave, how are you today?

First of all Dave I've not ignored anything anymore than you have. Secondly we are discussing it. And thirdly we just don't agree, is all.

I would've addressed the above more specifically but it strikes me that, at the moment, it may be best not to. Stay well!

[Dave T]

3 minutes ago, Oxford said:

Morning Dave, how are you today?

First of all Dave I've not ignored anything anymore than you have. Secondly we are discussing it. And thirdly we just don't agree, is all.

I would've addressed the above more specifically but it strikes me that, at the moment, it may be best not to. Stay well!

I'm fine thanks, hope you're well too. 

Apologies if my response is tetchy but when I am engaging in the discussion and debate in good faith I get frustrated when it is dismissed or claimed as a narrative. 

There is no narrative being created, this is a professional sports league, people need to pay for things, this is exactly why we have an 11 team league right now, as the money wasn't there. 

[Manfred Mann]

Bottom line is that having Toronto and Ottawa on the one hand, and Catalans and Toulouse on the other, all in Super League, enables a local derby in two countries, and in this way is a near certain guarantee for growing the game in Canada and France..

[Robin Evans]

1 minute ago, Manfred Mann said:

Bottom line is that having Toronto and Ottawa on the one hand, and Catalans and Toulouse on the other, all in Super League, enables a local derby in two countries, and in this way is a near certain guarantee for growing the game in Canada and France..

Just like the heavy woollen Derby has grown the game in Dewsbury.

I'm yet to see the evidence that 2 x Derby games a year is certain or near certain to grow the game.

This may be your opinion, but not one I share

[gingerjon]

9 minutes ago, Robin Evans said:

Just like the heavy woollen Derby has grown the game in Dewsbury.

I'm yet to see the evidence that 2 x Derby games a year is certain or near certain to grow the game.

This may be your opinion, but not one I share

It's the same fallacy that every match needs jeopardy.

[Tommygilf]

Just now, Robin Evans said:

Just like the heavy woollen Derby has grown the game in Dewsbury.

I'm yet to see the evidence that 2 x Derby games a year is certain or near certain to grow the game.

This may be your opinion, but not one I share

In one way it works on the same principle many traditionalists on here advocate, i.e. that local derbies (or at least domestic games) provide more interest than playing teams all from a different place. 

The other arguments are that not only would 2 professional clubs entail at least doubled Rugby League exposure in the country (especially if they were in 2 separate cities/regions), but that it would increase the value of a TV deal. For example, 2 French teams provides 2 games per week plus at least 2 derbies and crucially 1 Super League game in France each week for a French broadcaster.

I personally think most expansion clubs should be brought in in pairs. It creates both a natural on field rival that can be attractive when advertising to local newbies and a mutual helper off field when facing the inevitable difficulties of establishing professional Rugby League. Thats true of domestic expansion but has major other benefits when it comes to international clubs too.

[RP London]

22 minutes ago, Dave T said:

 

This.

By not factoring in the potential for Ottawa and Toulouse in SL we will make exactly the same mistakes as what we are trying to clean up now.

One thing every expansion effort always highlights is our inability to learn from what went wrong and what went right the last time and to act accordingly. 

I am for Toronto and hope it works out, but I would want to see a "cast iron" (as much as anything could be) plan.. which I am trusting is what they are being asked for.. i would also ask for the salary cap/years salary money to be paid over to SLE to be paid back each month to pay the salaries etc so that if they go bust that money is still with SLE to pay the wages.. don't let history repeat itself on this.. However, i would also ask that now of anyone new. I'd also like the governing body to start to look at building up a player fund that can help when this sort of thing happens in the future, as its not just expansion clubs where this has/can happen (its a long process to build up but they should have started to do this after Bradford IMHO). 

But they MUST look at everything that has happened here and at Les Cats so that Toulouse and Ottawa etc have an easier path, every new club should be making it easier for the next one because lessons should be learnt and ironed out.. however, history tells us that is not the case and for me this HAS to be where the RFL and SLE learn their lessons.

IF Toronto cannot satisfactorily do these things and show where they have improved/will be improving on the fundamental issues of the past then I'm sorry but it has to be a no. But, and its a huge but, at the same time I hope that the RFL and SLE are looking at themselves very very hard so that they also dont make these mistakes again.

[Dave T]

1 hour ago, RP London said:

One thing every expansion effort always highlights is our inability to learn from what went wrong and what went right the last time and to act accordingly. 

I am for Toronto and hope it works out, but I would want to see a "cast iron" (as much as anything could be) plan.. which I am trusting is what they are being asked for.. i would also ask for the salary cap/years salary money to be paid over to SLE to be paid back each month to pay the salaries etc so that if they go bust that money is still with SLE to pay the wages.. don't let history repeat itself on this.. However, i would also ask that now of anyone new. I'd also like the governing body to start to look at building up a player fund that can help when this sort of thing happens in the future, as its not just expansion clubs where this has/can happen (its a long process to build up but they should have started to do this after Bradford IMHO). 

But they MUST look at everything that has happened here and at Les Cats so that Toulouse and Ottawa etc have an easier path, every new club should be making it easier for the next one because lessons should be learnt and ironed out.. however, history tells us that is not the case and for me this HAS to be where the RFL and SLE learn their lessons.

IF Toronto cannot satisfactorily do these things and show where they have improved/will be improving on the fundamental issues of the past then I'm sorry but it has to be a no. But, and its a huge but, at the same time I hope that the RFL and SLE are looking at themselves very very hard so that they also dont make these mistakes again.

I agree with much of this, but I do have some sympathy with the governing bodies here in that they probably shouldn't be getting involved in some of the stuff that is being talked about here. I think ultimately clubs will come and go, rise and fall, and I'm not sure the governing body should be spending their time and effort on this, as these clubs are private businesses ultimately.

On your last 2 paragraphs, the problem when it comes down to it is that the RFL should not have admitted TWP like they did, and I would also say they have made a mistake in admitting Toulouse and Ottawa like they have. Without a plan on how new clubs integrate properly at every level of the structure, it just can't work. 

TWP are very unique. For something like this to work, it needs to be fully supported, lets be honest, some of the concessions that people have asked for are pretty major and need a shift from what we are doing - that can't just be shoe-horned in, or take a 'we'll worry about it later' approach - which appears to be exactly what the RFL have done and continue to do. 

Ottawa should have a very clear agreement on what the next 10 years looks like for them if they make SL within 3 years (and other scenarios). 

SLE are being treated as the bad guys here, but SLE never had a strategy to expand into Canada, it is being forced upon them, that can't be allowed to happen. 

[Les Tonks Sidestep]

1 minute ago, Dave T said:

I agree with much of this, but I do have some sympathy with the governing bodies here in that they probably shouldn't be getting involved in some of the stuff that is being talked about here. I think ultimately clubs will come and go, rise and fall, and I'm not sure the governing body should be spending their time and effort on this, as these clubs are private businesses ultimately.

On your last 2 paragraphs, the problem when it comes down to it is that the RFL should not have admitted TWP like they did, and I would also say they have made a mistake in admitting Toulouse and Ottawa like they have. Without a plan on how new clubs integrate properly at every level of the structure, it just can't work. 

TWP are very unique. For something like this to work, it needs to be fully supported, lets be honest, some of the concessions that people have asked for are pretty major and need a shift from what we are doing - that can't just be shoe-horned in, or take a 'we'll worry about it later' approach - which appears to be exactly what the RFL have done and continue to do. 

Ottawa should have a very clear agreement on what the next 10 years looks like for them if they make SL within 3 years (and other scenarios). 

SLE are being treated as the bad guys here, but SLE never had a strategy to expand into Canada, it is being forced upon them, that can't be allowed to happen. 

Not sure SLE had anything forced on them. They asked for information from both last year's MPG participants (as they had the previous year when TWP were also involved) and agreed to their admittance based on that.

[Adelaide Tiger]

22 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

How did Bradford go so well under Mr Deakin, why is Cas the best supported team in respect of population numbers, why is Wigan losing support year on year are we our own worst enemies and we don't try to improve our offer AT. 

There are those who say improve the matchday expierence even making what is on offer on the field secondary to a long afternoon/evening of entertainment.

Is this your response to my question as to how ‘SL can improve the attractiveness and income by offering the same old thing’?

[Harry Stottle]

7 minutes ago, Adelaide Tiger said:

Is this your response to my question as to how ‘SL can improve the attractiveness and income by offering the same old thing’?

It's about as much as I can be bothered with AT.