The General 'Toronto Wolfpack' Discussion Thread

[Blind side johnny]

5 minutes ago, ATLANTISMAN said:

Remember its not just us that will be offered a reduced deal yesterday I had a coffee with the CEO of a county cricket club who told me that they expect the next SKY deal to be around 40% of the last one.

Quote ALL sports are going to take a huge hit with their next contract with SKY and we have to accept that and look for other income streams.

 

P 

Yet some people deny that this will be the case.

[Damien]

19 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I agree with two of those categories, but your centrist view is not accurate. 

Some of those centrists would spend millions on France, or Wales, or Scotland, but zero on Canada. 

I accept that and like I said I see 3 broad groups and the centrists are very much the broad church middle ground covering a wide range of views, some swaying a little more to either the expansionist or traditionalist camps.

I personally don't see many  in that middle ground that would advocate cuts to each club's funding so that millions could be spent to develop the game in France or Wales or many that would like to see Toulouse parachuted into Super League with things like Catalans and Toulouse exempted from relegation. Or even at the more extreme developing a 4 team French conference asap with a view of developing the game there to get a TV deal and to aid the international game with competitive regular matches for England. The whole speculate to accumulate thing I described.

Like I said there are different degrees in that middle ground and I fully accept that some may be expansionists in Europe alone, in the sense that I describe, but I would have them much closer to the expansionist camp than the middle ground camp in that case.

[Dave T]

36 minutes ago, Damien said:

I accept that and like I said I see 3 broad groups and the centrists are very much the broad church middle ground covering a wide range of views, some swaying a little more to either the expansionist or traditionalist camps.

I personally don't see many  in that middle ground that would advocate cuts to each club's funding so that millions could be spent to develop the game in France or Wales or many that would like to see Toulouse parachuted into Super League with things like Catalans and Toulouse exempted from relegation. Or even at the more extreme developing a 4 team French conference asap with a view of developing the game there to get a TV deal and to aid the international game with competitive regular matches for England. The whole speculate to accumulate thing I described.

Like I said there are different degrees in that middle ground and I fully accept that some may be expansionists in Europe alone, in the sense that I describe, but I would have them much closer to the expansionist camp than the middle ground camp in that case.

I think this is a problem with categorising people. Expansionists come in all forms. I wouldn't be looking to take money from existing channels, I'd be looking for new investment and always working within a TV cycle. 

Im an expansionist, but that doesn't mean I'd go for every idea without reservation. 

I don't really think there is a middle, you either want expansion or you don't, if you don't, it's a pretty easy place to be, if you do, it then poses the million dollar question of how. 

It is perfectly possible to believe that TWP should not be readmitted to SL over the next couple of weeks and be an expansionist. 

[Damien]

3 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I think this is a problem with categorising people. Expansionists come in all forms. I wouldn't be looking to take money from existing channels, I'd be looking for new investment and always working within a TV cycle. 

Im an expansionist, but that doesn't mean I'd go for every idea without reservation. 

I don't really think there is a middle, you either want expansion or you don't, if you don't, it's a pretty easy place to be, if you do, it then poses the million dollar question of how. 

It is perfectly possible to believe that TWP should not be readmitted to SL over the next couple of weeks and be an expansionist. 

I'm not sure you are Dave reading your posts and you have pretty much described the centrist in my original post. That very much reads as you are an expansionist but type of post, similar to the posts we read time and again. I'm an expansionist as long as my club isn't affected, I'm an expansionist as long as my club doesn't pay for it etc. There is always a but. Its the kind of logic we see in every sphere of life. It is also pretty much the very essence of the magic money tree that I referred to and is why little ever happens in terms of progress on this.

[Dave T]

Just now, Damien said:

I'm not sure you are Dave reading your posts and you have pretty much described the centrist in my original post. That very much reads as you are an expansionist but type of post, similar to the posts we read time and again. I'm an expansionist as long as my club isn't affected, I'm an expansionist as long as my club doesn't pay for it etc. There is always a but. Its the kind of logic we see in every sphere of life. It is also pretty much the very essence of the magic money tree that I referred to and is why little ever happens in terms of progress on this.

That's all great, but you are wrong in your reading of my posts.

The only difference between you and I is who we think should pay for it. 

[RP London]

14 minutes ago, Damien said:

I'm not sure you are Dave reading your posts and you have pretty much described the centrist in my original post. That very much reads as you are an expansionist but type of post, similar to the posts we read time and again. I'm an expansionist as long as my club isn't affected, I'm an expansionist as long as my club doesn't pay for it etc. There is always a but. Its the kind of logic we see in every sphere of life. It is also pretty much the very essence of the magic money tree that I referred to and is why little ever happens in terms of progress on this.

If we're reading it like that then i think you'll find there are very few in the "expansion at all costs" camp and very few in the "no expansion whatsover" camp.. 

I am 100% an expansionist, it should be our aim but i wouldnt give away the whole farm just for it, it has to be balanced and it has to be done properly otherwise it is pointless.

I would have always said Dave is an expansionist. it is only recently have i seen him become more negative and it is pretty much only about TWP and how they should/should not come back.. and i can see 100% where he is coming from for it, i dont think it stops him being an expansionist though to be honest. 

[Damien]

1 minute ago, Dave T said:

That's all great, but you are wrong in your reading of my posts.

The only difference between you and I is who we think should pay for it. 

Well short of some sugar daddy funding everything or some TV company paying for everything then expansion will not happen. Looking for new investment is just praying for a magic money tree to pay for everything. That is no plan for expansion and results in no expansion. Yes it would be great if that happened but it hasn't happened in my lifetime to any meaningful, lasting extent. Even Catalans took money from the UK game, and so existing channels, which wasn't new investment and so from what you say something you would be against in future.

I'd like to be a millionaire but unless I actually invest, take risks and do the steps required then I never will be. Your wanted approach is akin to buying a lottery ticket and hoping to strike lucky some day. I think as the Premier Rugby League organisation and body in the Northern hemisphere the RFL and game in this country has an obligation to grow the game. It should do this for its own betterment as much as anything. I would say exactly the same about the NRL in the Southern hemisphere.

[Dave T]

2 minutes ago, Damien said:

Well short of some sugar daddy funding everything or some TV company paying for everything then expansion will not happen. Looking for new investment is just praying for a magic money tree to pay for everything. That is no plan for expansion and results in no expansion. Yes it would be great if that happened but it hasn't happened in my lifetime to any meaningful, lasting extent. Even Catalans took money from the UK game, and so existing channels, which wasn't new investment and so from what you say something you would be against in future.

I'd like to be a millionaire but unless I actually invest, take risks and do the steps required then I never will be. Your wanted approach is akin to buying a lottery ticket and hoping to strike lucky some day. I think as the Premier Rugby League organisation and body in the Northern hemisphere the RFL and game in this country has an obligation to grow the game. It should do this for its own betterment as much as anything. I would say exactly the same about the NRL in the Southern hemisphere.

We should leave it there as you don't seem to want to listen to my views, just keep telling me what they are, and frankly getting it wrong. 

I'm not a fan of being reliant on sugar daddies to fund expansion, it rarely ends well. 

[Dave T]

5 minutes ago, RP London said:

If we're reading it like that then i think you'll find there are very few in the "expansion at all costs" camp and very few in the "no expansion whatsover" camp.. 

I am 100% an expansionist, it should be our aim but i wouldnt give away the whole farm just for it, it has to be balanced and it has to be done properly otherwise it is pointless.

I would have always said Dave is an expansionist. it is only recently have i seen him become more negative and it is pretty much only about TWP and how they should/should not come back.. and i can see 100% where he is coming from for it, i dont think it stops him being an expansionist though to be honest. 

Indeed, it needs to form part of a strategy, and like we have already touched on have dedicated resources focusing on it, if we are serious about it. 

[Scubby]

Are they trying to filibuster the Wolfpack into submission? Whether they get the green light or not, this leaves them next to no time to get ready for 2021. Something has to be decided asap. 

[Damien]

12 minutes ago, RP London said:

If we're reading it like that then i think you'll find there are very few in the "expansion at all costs" camp and very few in the "no expansion whatsover" camp.. 

I am 100% an expansionist, it should be our aim but i wouldnt give away the whole farm just for it, it has to be balanced and it has to be done properly otherwise it is pointless.

I would have always said Dave is an expansionist. it is only recently have i seen him become more negative and it is pretty much only about TWP and how they should/should not come back.. and i can see 100% where he is coming from for it, i dont think it stops him being an expansionist though to be honest. 

I've never said expansion at all costs. However the game investing nothing and expecting someone else to pay for everything is no better than no expansion at all if that investment doesn't come. I was also referring to Lenegan's comments generally, I am not just referring to TWP.

[RP London]

better argument re written below..

[RP London]

10 minutes ago, Damien said:

I've never said expansion at all costs. However the game investing nothing and expecting someone else to pay for everything is no better than no expansion at all if that investment doesn't come. I was also referring to Lenegan's comments generally, I am not just referring to TWP.

with regards lenegans comments, i think we all know what he is saying and we would all broadly agree (whether you want to do it or not is a different matter) but where is the money to speculate? what sort of money? the RFL has no money.. hence not wanting to bet the farm on it.. which is what the RFL would be doing if they heavily invested in expansion. 

therefore we need to find more lenegan's who have money to invest... where do they come from? hence my idea of 1 job that could help find these sorts of people, but to do that you need a plan to put to them of what the RFL wants to see happen and what, perhaps, the ROI would be for that person..  but thats just one idea of how to do it.. 

The pure expansionist you talk of is fine but when it comes to practicalities it always will come back to the fact the RFL is skint.. and hence we all (when not talking theoretically) slip back to the centre.. 

[Dave T]

18 minutes ago, RP London said:

with regards lenegans comments, i think we all know what he is saying and we would all broadly agree (whether you want to do it or not is a different matter) but where is the money to speculate? what sort of money? the RFL has no money.. hence not wanting to bet the farm on it.. which is what the RFL would be doing if they heavily invested in expansion. 

therefore we need to find more lenegan's who have money to invest... where do they come from? hence my idea of 1 job that could help find these sorts of people, but to do that you need a plan to put to them of what the RFL wants to see happen and what, perhaps, the ROI would be for that person..  but thats just one idea of how to do it.. 

The pure expansionist you talk of is fine but when it comes to practicalities it always will come back to the fact the RFL is skint.. and hence we all (when not talking theoretically) slip back to the centre.. 

There is quite simply the fact that maybe people just don't buy the benefits of investing in Canada. I've said many times I've enjoyed it and want to see it continue, but it's not my money being invested. 

Martyn Sadler has just tweeted a positive tweet about TWP's submission, questioning how anybody can't see the benefit of them is beyond him, yet people making these statements can never then back it up with tangible benefits. I think there is a time and a place for leaps of faith, and a self funded project allows for that, when it costs millions, some consideration is needed. 

I genuinely believe without ring fenced funding and resources from each tv deal we will continue to have these discussions. 

I've made the point many times before though, Toronto would not have been anywhere near a top 10 list of cities for SL expansion even if we had funding put aside. The signs however are very positive and exciting, so it'd be a shame to pass up on that, but it isn't a no-brainer, as much as people try and railroad others into thinking that. 

[Dave T]

Lenegan's comments were interesting in the fact he also talked about the game in Oz, which was apparently going to be the biggest and most important commercial deal in Wigan's history. 

It didn't turn out that way, and he spent no more money on it. There are parallels here. 

By the way, I'd absolutely push for a Magic Weekend in Oz/NZ to try and push TV rights value in those territories. 

[Damien]

46 minutes ago, RP London said:

with regards lenegans comments, i think we all know what he is saying and we would all broadly agree (whether you want to do it or not is a different matter) but where is the money to speculate? what sort of money? the RFL has no money.. hence not wanting to bet the farm on it.. which is what the RFL would be doing if they heavily invested in expansion. 

therefore we need to find more lenegan's who have money to invest... where do they come from? hence my idea of 1 job that could help find these sorts of people, but to do that you need a plan to put to them of what the RFL wants to see happen and what, perhaps, the ROI would be for that person..  but thats just one idea of how to do it.. 

The pure expansionist you talk of is fine but when it comes to practicalities it always will come back to the fact the RFL is skint.. and hence we all (when not talking theoretically) slip back to the centre.. 

There are things that could be done and decisions that could be made that aren't. I don't see any reason why Toulouse couldn't have been in Super League years ago in the way Catalans were. They seem well funded, maybe this could have been done without them taking TV money like Toronto. Catalans TV share could have been halved with Toulouse and Catalans taking half each. There are huge spin offs for Catalans and the French game which would have helped with this shortfall. More French teams would hopefully produce more TV streams through a French TV deal and increased sponsorship. A competitive 3 match mid series v France, with increased French strength in depth, would also have off set this cost and benefitted England and the international game. This is where we get into speculate to accumulate territory but I personally see little risk and a lot of upside. France should be the priority for quick, easy gains and should have been done in a more meaningful and concerted way a long time ago.

This season every club got Toronto's share. That was £1.8 million for expansion right there. How many development officers could that funded? Probably about 25 for 4 years or so. With the new TV deal every club got an extra £500,000, that could have been just an extra £400,000 with the £100,000 going towards development. Where there is a will there is a way. In RL all too often there isn't that will and there is too much self interest.

I can completely see Dave's argument with Toronto, on what the deal was etc, and I have sympathy for it. I however think we are now where we are and I would hate to see all of that good work wasted. I also have a lot of sympathy for those against North America expansion. I myself would much prefer the development of a North American league. If Toronto survive and New York and Ottawa come to fruition for me it is much more preferable for them to try and get more cities on board in that area and develop a league there. I would love to see a 3rd full time RL competition. Again though beggars cant be choosers and that isn't what was on offer. Maybe what has happened could change things. I don't see though how Toronto wasn't a good thing for the game and the opportunity was too good to pass up. It came money free and risk free to the game. I think only the most ardent anti-TWP person would say they wasn't a success, with crowds way beyond expectations and more innovation in a few years than I have seen in RL in decades. It took a once in a lifetime event to put them in the position they are now.

[Oxford]

2 hours ago, Dave T said:

Nobody will believe its a real score, we'd struggle to get 4 scores. 

And then we could employ Wolfy from Saints to say the best team lost!

[TIWIT]

1 hour ago, Dave T said:

Lenegan's comments were interesting in the fact he also talked about the game in Oz, which was apparently going to be the biggest and most important commercial deal in Wigan's history. 

It didn't turn out that way, and he spent no more money on it. There are parallels here. 

By the way, I'd absolutely push for a Magic Weekend in Oz/NZ to try and push TV rights value in those territories. 

Magic Weekend down under? Who pay for that pray tell?

[ATLANTISMAN]

36 minutes ago, TIWIT said:

Magic Weekend down under? Who pay for that pray tell?

Magic Weekend in New Zealand your having a laugh:)

On a serious note there is not the money there try getting money out of New Zealand for sponsorship its almost impossible the ALL BLACKS made/make most of their money from NIKE.

The prices for sports sponsorship TV in NZ are peanuts Australia does a brilliant job considering how small the population is Canada is reasonable but most of the money is Toronto centric on major league American sports although the CFL does pretty well for TV viewing but is mainly funded by paying spectators.

 

Paul

[Dave T]

55 minutes ago, TIWIT said:

Magic Weekend down under? Who pay for that pray tell?

Funding model similar to now, tourist board/local councils, sponsors and media deal. 

In other words, you get others to fund it. Wigan and Hull's tour over there was good in principle, but SL could have been bolder. 

We get others to pay all the time, whether it is Sky, sponsors, individual investors, etc. 

[Oldbear]

1 hour ago, Damien said:

There are things that could be done and decisions that could be made that aren't. I don't see any reason why Toulouse couldn't have been in Super League years ago in the way Catalans were. They seem well funded, maybe this could have been done without them taking TV money like Toronto. Catalans TV share could have been halved with Toulouse and Catalans taking half each. There are huge spin offs for Catalans and the French game which would have helped with this shortfall. More French teams would hopefully produce more TV streams through a French TV deal and increased sponsorship. A competitive 3 match mid series v France, with increased French strength in depth, would also have off set this cost and benefitted England and the international game. This is where we get into speculate to accumulate territory but I personally see little risk and a lot of upside. France should be the priority for quick, easy gains and should have been done in a more meaningful and concerted way a long time ago.

This season every club got Toronto's share. That was £1.8 million for expansion right there. How many development officers could that funded? Probably about 25 for 4 years or so. With the new TV deal every club got an extra £500,000, that could have been just an extra £400,000 with the £100,000 going towards development. Where there is a will there is a way. In RL all too often there isn't that will and there is too much self interest.

I can completely see Dave's argument with Toronto, on what the deal was etc, and I have sympathy for it. I however think we are now where we are and I would hate to see all of that good work wasted. I also have a lot of sympathy for those against North America expansion. I myself would much prefer the development of a North American league. If Toronto survive and New York and Ottawa come to fruition for me it is much more preferable for them to try and get more cities on board in that area and develop a league there. I would love to see a 3rd full time RL competition. Again though beggars cant be choosers and that isn't what was on offer. Maybe what has happened could change things. I don't see though how Toronto wasn't a good thing for the game and the opportunity was too good to pass up. It came money free and risk free to the game. I think only the most ardent anti-TWP person would say they wasn't a success, with crowds way beyond expectations and more innovation in a few years than I have seen in RL in decades. It took a once in a lifetime event to put them in the position they are now.

So many things here, perhaps a summary of why things go wrong.

I totally agree with your point about development officers. The money spent there, rather than going to clubs as an extra share, could have helped safeguard the games future, and allow grass roots expansion, instead the clubs get the money to blow on another over the hill import.

France really needs 2 SL teams, that way you can build a rivalry, offer TV a home game every week and commercially promote the game there like never before. 
 

A NA league would be nice, but don’t ever think it will happen, the US will be really tough to crack and the continent is so vast the sheer cost of travel needs to be underwritten by someone, plus without TV it will be difficult to survive, so back to sugar daddies and I agree with Dave T on that one, when they get involved it never turns out well. Especially American sugar daddies, who often want to change the whole game to suit them (just look how whenever a US sports team wants a new stadium or arena, the end result is either the sugar daddy blackmailing the city taxpayers into paying, or the team gets moved).

TWP a success? Difficult to say, crowd wise definitely, development of the game from a playing point of view definitely not. Plus there has been a whole range of off field admin issues from the visa fiasco to poor salary cap management to supplier payments missed. Much of this however could have been averted with a better calibre of off field administration in place and has to be something that is top of the list to be addressed if TWP is allowed back. Of course we will never know how many of those issues were born out of Argyles management style, hopefully the new ownership will be different.

[Quolls2020]

NRL.com...today...abridged

https://www.nrl.com/news/2020/10/28/sbw-joins-refugee-campaign-as-he-waits-for-wolfpack-call/

Williams played five games for Sydney Roosters at the end of the season after the Wolfpack withdrew from the Super League due to COVID-19 restrictions but is committed to the Canadian club if they are allowed to rejoin the competition next season.

A decision is expected as soon as Friday, with each of the other 11 Super League clubs to decide their fate after prospective new owner Carlo LiVolsi tabled a new submission on the Wolfpack’s viability if they were permitted to return in 2021.

LiVolsi has promised to cover unpaid wages and honour contracts for all players, including Williams and Ricky Leutele, who joined Melbourne after the Wolfpack withdrew from the Super League.

Despite proving in the 22-18 semi-final loss to Canberra that he can still make an impact in the NRL with a 38-minute performance that included three off-loads, a try-assist, a tackle-break and a line-break assist, Williams will not consider any other options until the Wolfpack’s future is determined.

[TIWIT]

1 hour ago, ATLANTISMAN said:

Magic Weekend in New Zealand your having a laugh:)

On a serious note there is not the money there try getting money out of New Zealand for sponsorship its almost impossible the ALL BLACKS made/make most of their money from NIKE.

The prices for sports sponsorship TV in NZ are peanuts Australia does a brilliant job considering how small the population is Canada is reasonable but most of the money is Toronto centric on major league American sports although the CFL does pretty well for TV viewing but is mainly funded by paying spectators.

 

Paul

Wasn't my idea - it was Dave T's above. I am pretty dubious but he seems to think it could be done so who knows?

[Dave T]

1 hour ago, ATLANTISMAN said:

Magic Weekend in New Zealand your having a laugh:)

On a serious note there is not the money there try getting money out of New Zealand for sponsorship its almost impossible the ALL BLACKS made/make most of their money from NIKE.

The prices for sports sponsorship TV in NZ are peanuts Australia does a brilliant job considering how small the population is Canada is reasonable but most of the money is Toronto centric on major league American sports although the CFL does pretty well for TV viewing but is mainly funded by paying spectators.

 

Paul

My post said Oz/NZ. Tiwits said Down Under. 

I also recall you being extremely confident that the HJ would not be used for SL because of advertising boards. You were quite certain

[ATLANTISMAN]

3 minutes ago, Dave T said:

My post said Oz/NZ. Tiwits said Down Under. 

I also recall you being extremely confident that the HJ would not be used for SL because of advertising boards. You were quite certain

See PM Dave:)

P