The General 'Toronto Wolfpack' Discussion Thread

[DoubleD]

14 minutes ago, Hela Wigmen said:

Kids aren’t bothered by the geography of clubs though. What you’re alluding to is how these sports and their competitions are marketed and pushed into these kids’ lives. 

Of course they are........you only have to look at the comments from numerous players about how excited they were to visit Toronto.

Toronto was aspirational for many

[DoubleD]

Not sure if it's been covered in the reams of pages here, that i won't trawl through................but didn't Argyle submit a bond with the RFL and if so, what has happened to this? Why hasn't it been used to pay the players?

[Hela Wigmen]

3 minutes ago, DoubleD said:

Of course they are........you only have to look at the comments from numerous players about how excited they were to visit Toronto.

Toronto was aspirational for many

Players, who are adults. Kids don’t care about that sort of thing. They just care for the big name players and big name squads. 

[Tommygilf]

4 minutes ago, Hela Wigmen said:

Players, who are adults. Kids don’t care about that sort of thing. They just care for the big name players and big name squads. 

Yep, and when kids look and see their football team competing against the best in the country or Europe in amazing facilities in front of fantastic crowds in great looking kits that loads of people talk about and want to be a part of and then play with those teams on one of the most popular video games in the world and then look at their rugby team that nobody seems to care too much about its no comparison. 

The location may be irrelevant actually, but it helps immensely. Kids aspire to international events, not village leagues.

[Big Picture]

30 minutes ago, whatmichaelsays said:

But unless you already have clubs in those locations, or you have an investor willing to base their club where you want them to, it is a "pins in maps" approach. At the moment, we don't have a club in New York. What we have is a bloke with a crate of beanie hats to sell, so we can't build any sort of strategy around a club in New York as we sit here today. 

Is playing in cities preferable from a marketing perspective to playing in towns? Yes, but the game is currently played predominantly in towns, so let's work to overcome those biases. The clubs that play rugby league are not "towns", they're brands - so sell that. The players wearing cherry and white don't represent Wigan Town, they represent Wigan Warriors - and that's what you sell and that's what you make it easy for people to buy. Ask your same person on the street what the hell a Saracen or a Harlequin is or what they think of Wasps and you'd probably get equally blank looks. 

There is nothing, nothing at all, about being in the north that stops rugby league reaching new audiences, nothing about being in the north that stops it attracting commercial partners, nothing about being in the north stops RL going viral on social media and nothing about being in the north that stops it being newsworthy. It all comes down to making the sport more relevant to more people. 

The game is currently played predominantly in smallish economically disadvantaged towns and that's precisely the problem because you can't differentiate a club from the city or town where it's based.  If (as I suspect) most Brits have never heard of Wigan and most of the remainder who have consider it a backwater, then you can't sell them on Wigan Warriors for precisely that reason.  In their eyes clubs in towns which they consider backwaters will forever be tagged accordingly in their minds and that's just the way it is.  If you want to impress them with this great game, you need another way to do it.

[Big Picture]

6 minutes ago, Hela Wigmen said:

Kids don’t want to play for teams based off of where they’re based. They want to play for the teams that win things and have the best players and if that’s Toronto or Swinton, their geographical location matters little. To think kids have an interest in that is hilarious. See Manchester City’s rise to fame over the past ten years and the increase in City shirts on kids across the country and not just in Manchester and surrounding areas, this isn’t because these kids dream of living in the Cheshire villages, it’s because they dream of playing with Aguero and De Bruyne and playing in Champions League games. 

However, Super League, The RFL and clubs on the whole are woeful at social media and we are told that Warrington’s embarrassing social media activity and Wigan’s bizarre beaming of a badge on to another teams stadium is good work. 

You just backed up my point, thanks.  They dream of playing in Champions League (or equivalent) games, therefore just as I've said RL needs a comparably glamorous league to get them interested.

[Hela Wigmen]

Just now, Big Picture said:

You just backed up my point, thanks.  They dream of playing in Champions League (or equivalent) games, therefore just as I've said RL needs a comparably glamorous league to get them interested.

They dream of playing in big events. Football does far better, naturally, at pushing the big events. Kids care little for geography. They care more for big names playing against each other, which comes in many forms in football compared to Rugby League. In Rugby League, we have our big names, we don’t make any noise about them beyond the back pages of the Yorkshire Post or whatever localised papers are left when there’s a whole world of social media that we leave, largely untapped. That’s the issue here, not the geography of clubs. 

[RobertAM]

4 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

The game is currently played predominantly in smallish economically disadvantaged towns and that's precisely the problem because you can't differentiate a club from the city or town where it's based.  If (as I suspect) most Brits have never heard of Wigan and most of the remainder who have consider it a backwater, then you can't sell them on Wigan Warriors for precisely that reason.  In their eyes clubs in towns which they consider backwaters will forever be tagged accordingly in their minds and that's just the way it is.  If you want to impress them with this great game, you need another way to do it.

Recall Swinton wanting to rebrand as Manchester Lions..while I can understand the backlash from longstanding fans and the ultimate backdown a case can be made that the ownership got it..Man U might not have been the global brand they are today if they'd been for example Hulme United

[Big Picture]

1 minute ago, Hela Wigmen said:

They dream of playing in big events. Football does far better, naturally, at pushing the big events. Kids care little for geography. They care more for big names playing against each other, which comes in many forms in football compared to Rugby League. In Rugby League, we have our big names, we don’t make any noise about them beyond the back pages of the Yorkshire Post or whatever localised papers are left when there’s a whole world of social media that we leave, largely untapped. That’s the issue here, not the geography of clubs. 

You backed my point a second time, thanks again.  RL needs a league whose matches will be big events, but you can't ever make a match between teams from two smallish economically disadvantaged towns a big event, because that's not possible.

[whatmichaelsays]

12 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

you can't differentiate a club from the city or town where it's based.

Of course you can. One of the world's biggest sports brands is based in a small town in Wisconsin. Germany's Bundesliga, one of the most commercially successful in the world, is full of "small town" teams (Hoffenheim, Kaiserslautern, Wolfsburg) . One of rugby union's most successful clubs is a nomadic brand that is named after an irritant at a picnic - not the town they moved to.

The location is only a problem if you allow it to be. If you think that fans to the game are only of any value if they're clicking through the turnstiles then yes, being in parts of the country with low levels of disposable income is a problem but I'll state again, there is no problem facing RL at the current time that our geography makes insurmountable. We're not selling St Helens, the deprived Merseyside town. We're selling St Helens - the exciting rugby league team and Tommy Makinson's YouTube and Instagram-worthy try scoring. 

[Big Picture]

2 minutes ago, RobertAM said:

Recall Swinton wanting to rebrand as Manchester Lions..while I can understand the backlash from longstanding fans and the ultimate backdown a case can be made that the ownership got it..Man U might not have been the global brand they are today if they'd been for example Hulme United

Swinton rebranding as Manchester would have been completely disingenuous, just like tarting up the old northern RL Championship and calling the result "Super League".  A Manchester club would have to be set up as Manchester, be based in the city, have a big marketing and promotion budget, etc. to win over Mancunians and it would need to play opponents which Mancunians would consider draw cards too.

[RobertAM]

6 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

Swinton rebranding as Manchester would have been completely disingenuous, just like tarting up the old northern RL Championship and calling the result "Super League".  A Manchester club would have to be set up as Manchester, be based in the city, have a big marketing and promotion budget, etc. to win over Mancunians and it would need to play opponents which Mancunians would consider draw cards too.

didnt Swinton Lions actually decamp from Swinton some time ago?

[RobertAM]

1 minute ago, RobertAM said:

didnt Swinton Lions actually decamp from Swinton some time ago?

see their badge actually says Manchester on the lower edge..was that always the case?..i forget

[Big Picture]

6 hours ago, whatmichaelsays said:

Of course you can. One of the world's biggest sports brands is based in a small town in Wisconsin. Germany's Bundesliga, one of the most commercially successful in the world, is full of "small town" teams. One of rugby union's most successful clubs is a nomadic brand that is named after an irritant at a picnic - not the town they moved to.

The location is only a problem if you allow it to be. If you think that fans to the game are only of any value if they're clicking through the turnstiles then yes, being in parts of the country with low levels of disposable income is a problem but I'll state again, there is no problem facing RL at the current time that our geography makes insurmountable. We're not selling St Helens, the deprived Merseyside town. We're selling St Helens - the exciting rugby league team and Tommy Makinson's YouTube and Instagram-worthy try scoring. 

Green Bay isn't just Green Bay's team though, through various initiatives (such as playing two home matches a year in Milwaukee decades ago) they made themselves Wisconsin's team rather than just Green Bay's team.  Green Bay also benefits from its association with the big city teams which make up the NFL.  And it's the one and only major league franchise in North America not based in a big city.

The Bundesliga does have teams in some smaller cities, but they likewise all benefit from their association with the big city teams in Berlin, Munich, Cologne, Frankfurt, Dortmund, etc.  Barbarians aren't a club as such, they're an invitational team which only plays half a dozen times a year.

None of that applies to RL though, because it has no presence to speak of in Britain's major cities and thus St Helens can't benefit from the same type of association with big city teams like Green Bay and VfL Wolfsburg can.  British RL can't sell that exciting rugby team because without the big cities involved it can't bring in the sort of money needed to do that.

[DI Keith Fowler]

4 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

Green Bay isn't just Green Bay's team though, through various initiatives (such as playing two home matches a year in Milwaukee decades ago) they made themselves Wisconsin's team rather than just Green Bay's team.  Green Bay also benefits from its association with the big city teams which make up the NFL.  And it's the one and only major league franchise in North America not based in a big city.

The Bundesliga does have teams in some smaller cities, but they likewise all benefit from their association with the big city teams in Berlin, Munich, Cologne, Frankfurt, Dortmund, etc.  Barbarians aren't a club as such, they're an invitational team which only plays half a dozen times a year.

None of that applies to RL though, because it has no presence to speak of in Britain's major cities and thus St Helens can't benefit from the same type of association with big city teams like Green Bay and VfL Woflsburg can.  British RL can't sell that exciting rugby team because without the big cities involved it can't bring in the sort of money needed to do that.

 

Think they were referring to Wasps, unless you have some very exciting picnics. 

[Hela Wigmen]

18 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

You backed my point a second time, thanks again.  RL needs a league whose matches will be big events, but you can't ever make a match between teams from two smallish economically disadvantaged towns a big event, because that's not possible.

Of course you can. Will it compare to the events of the scale of a Champions League Final or a Super Bowl? Of course not. I don’t think that is a fair comparison. However, the game doesn’t do enough to create such events and we’re our own worst enemy too by claiming how great the sport is but by equally calling it small and unimportant. Even our closest relatives, Rugby Union manages to create events in double headers and big games at bigger stadiums between clubs that I wouldn’t say are particularly big names in this country, let alone European wise or even globally.

It’s about how you sell it rather than who is in it. Take State of Origin, again another event that means little outside its home. My nephew watched it with my Dad on Wednesday evening and he now wants to be part of that when he grows up (I’m leaving it to grandad to tell him why a kid born in Preston can’t). It’s the same when his RU playing Dad has taken him and dragged me and my Dad to watch Rugby Union, they make an event out of things and do more for a standard home game than I’ve seen at a Super League ground for a long, long time. He wants to be a part of that. He cares little that Wasps are based in Coventry or Sale aren’t a big name but he buys into what’s going on around him. 

Take Toronto for example. This isn’t a slant at them necessarily and the host club and Super League could have done more. Their double headers felt like they were a necessity rather than an event itself. It’s the same for our Cup Semi-Finals. It’s just convenient rather than an event and social media reflects that across the sport. Magic is just six games at a different stadium, it’s not a good event at all, really. 

 

[Big Picture]

9 minutes ago, Hela Wigmen said:

Of course you can. Will it compare to the events of the scale of a Champions League Final or a Super Bowl? Of course not. I don’t think that is a fair comparison. However, the game doesn’t do enough to create such events and we’re our own worst enemy too by claiming how great the sport is but by equally calling it small and unimportant. Even our closest relatives, Rugby Union manages to create events in double headers and big games at bigger stadiums between clubs that I wouldn’t say are particularly big names in this country, let alone European wise or even globally.

You can eh?  Tell me how then.

[whatmichaelsays]

21 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

 British RL can't sell that exciting rugby team because without the big cities involved it can't bring in the sort of money needed to do that.

 

"Woah mate! Check out this video of this try I found on YouTube! How does this guy do that?!"

"Who does he play for?"

"Some team called Saints. They're from St Helens I think."

"Meh, I'm not watching anything that. They don't even have a Five Guys."  

Yep, that seems like a normal conversation. 

[Hela Wigmen]

1 minute ago, Big Picture said:

You can eh?  Tell me how then.

It works well enough in Rugby Union with their events between sides that are no bigger than our biggest names. How they do it, I’m not sure entirely as it’s not my field (though it’s something I’m looking into) but it would suggest it’s possible. 

[Blind side johnny]

8 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Rugby League can only be played in a prepared surface at organized clubs (long gone are the days that kids would congregate on the local field to organise themselves), unike the popularity of the borefest round ball game that can be played on any surface and it doesn't even have to be football they utilise.

The only way our sport will grow in popularity is a concerted effort by the governing bodies to spread the game, bring back development officers, give assistance to community club's, and ensure that pro and semi pro clubs do their utmost to get kids involved. Without all that we will wither away far far quicker than rejecting clubs from other continents who for years and generations would be totally reliant on others providing player's for them to utilise, the game is walking on a cliff edge at the moment as far as development of new player's is concerned, I say this not as a bystander looking from afar but as someone who was once very much involved and albeit just an observer these days I still get along to witness a shadow of its former self.

It's not just the Billinge Lump, it's around the Slag Heaps of Knottingley, the Docks in Hull, the Hills of West Cumbria, the Heavy Woolen of West Yorkshire that needs a good dose of attention  if we don't sort those places out first and foremost there will be no performer's to take the Circus on the Road to far off shores.

 

Yep.

Coupled with a major effort to persuade the public, including kids, that the game is fashionable and attractive.

[Tommygilf]

https://www.facebook.com/955687937891165/posts/3390850067708261/?sfnsn=scwspmo

[Tommygilf]

3 hours ago, whatmichaelsays said:

"Woah mate! Check out this video of this try I found on YouTube! How does this guy do that?!"

"Who does he play for?"

"Some team called Saints. They're from St Helens I think."

"Meh, I'm not watching anything that. They don't even have a Five Guys."  

Yep, that seems like a normal conversation. 

More likely 

"Where?"

"Near Liverpool"

"Oh right"

Or 

"St Helens? Full of wools"

[Tommygilf]

 

[Eddie]

2 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

https://www.facebook.com/955687937891165/posts/3390850067708261/?sfnsn=scwspmo

So sad to see. 

[Tommygilf]

Just now, Eddie said:

So sad to see. 

Indeed, but we can have x village team in on half the Super League money next year so we're all good.