The General 'Toronto Wolfpack' Discussion Thread

[Damien]

5 minutes ago, Niels said:

It's a poor, lazy article, uniformed with no comprehension of how small clubs in the championship supported Toronto.

 

 

I don't think it is but you do raise a good point about how Toronto were supported in the lower leagues. On the whole in both the Championship and League 1 clubs seemed a lot more accommodating and welcoming even though they arguably had more to lose.

[Niels]

9 minutes ago, Damien said:

I don't think it is but you do raise a good point about how Toronto were supported in the lower leagues. On the whole in both the Championship and League 1 clubs seemed a lot more accommodating and welcoming even though they arguably had more to lose.

Thanks for acknowledging this Damien. 

I think it is this that gets me emotive. There were very good relations between the lower league clubs and Toronto. You can see in how they speak about us on here.

At Batley we used to market the games against Toronto well and got good crowds. 

 

 

[Oxford]

1 hour ago, Damien said:

On the whole in both the Championship and League 1 clubs seemed a lot more accommodating and welcoming even though they arguably had more to lose.

 

1 hour ago, Niels said:

There were very good relations between the lower league clubs and Toronto. You can see in how they speak about us on here.

And it's fascinating all this in the light of the end result.

[Steve Slater]

1 hour ago, Damien said:

I don't think it is but you do raise a good point about how Toronto were supported in the lower leagues. On the whole in both the Championship and League 1 clubs seemed a lot more accommodating and welcoming even though they arguably had more to lose.

I don't think the lower league clubs saw them as a threat, they are more disillusioned by the smaller Super League clubs who they feel are no better than half a dozen or more clubs in the Championship but Lord it over them like gods.

[RobertAM]

1 hour ago, Niels said:

Thanks for acknowledging this Damien. 

I think it is this that gets me emotive. There were very good relations between the lower league clubs and Toronto. You can see in how they speak about us on here.

At Batley we used to market the games against Toronto well and got good crowds. 

 

 

Batley and their fans are a class act. After Roger T learned I was Bradford born he brought me a Gallant Youth club shirt with my name on it and gave it to me at the friday night meet n greet that the Wolfpack put on for visiting fans. Luckily I had got him a Wolfpack golf shirt so the ale did flow that night..will never forget the mates I made over the 3 years we were in the league.

[Les Tonks Sidestep]

3 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

Further comments from Bob Hunter confirming what we already knew.

"Robert [Elstone] was pretty clear from the get-go that he didn’t want us in…You’re the commissioner. You’re supposed to be the neutral party in all of this." 

If my own club was treated like this I'd be furious. That fans of clubs who have been treated like this and worse have supported the decision and process is appalling.

Did you not read this bit?

"We made a lot of mistakes. We were, unfortunately, under-funded from the get-go. There’s certainly things that were unforgivable on our part. There’s no one to blame but ourselves at the end of the day."

[Pulga]

Some damning information coming out:

 

[Tommygilf]

3 hours ago, Les Tonks Sidestep said:

Did you not read this bit?

"We made a lot of mistakes. We were, unfortunately, under-funded from the get-go. There’s certainly things that were unforgivable on our part. There’s no one to blame but ourselves at the end of the day."

I think he was trying to give a bit of balance.

[Harry Stottle]

16 hours ago, theswanmcr said:

The report is a hatchet job, as seen by the examples posted elsewhere.

Imagine if Toronto and Ottawa worked together and could come back with a TV deal they negotiated themselves eg let us both in and we’ve got this deal that will bring x exposure and x revenue.

Like I say probably pie in the sky but if I was either of the chairmen I’d be pulling out the stops to show SL, the clubs and everyone they were wrong. Plenty of time to work on some ideas and plans now with Ottawa not involved next year.

Lots of pies (or satellites) in the sky Swanny, but saying that it  is a very good idea.

This is the idea that a lot of posters are hanging onto exactly the same hope that if we had two SL clubs in France they would gain a TV deal but people want entry first and then try to secure a deal, sorry but if it is a proposal then obtain it first and come back with something solid and they can say "this is what we have got" not "this is what we hope to get".

And as far as I am concerned under the same conditions as everyone else, no relegation amnesty's if they play in the same league they suffer the same consequences.

[Harry Stottle]

16 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

Further comments from Bob Hunter confirming what we already knew.

"Robert [Elstone] was pretty clear from the get-go that he didn’t want us in…You’re the commissioner. You’re supposed to be the neutral party in all of this." 

If my own club was treated like this I'd be furious. That fans of clubs who have been treated like this and worse have supported the decision and process is appalling.

Like being a fan of Dewsbury, Keighley, Gateshead, or Sheffield you mean?

[Tommygilf]

1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

Like being a fan of Dewsbury, Keighley, Gateshead, or Sheffield you mean?

Or Leigh, Halifax, Fev etc. Any club who has had a hatchet job licensing report used on them. Always said Toronto's success would be massive for aspirational Championship clubs as both proof of concept and a sympathetic friend in the Super League. Dancing on their grave my lead to those clubs falling into their own.

[EastLondonMike]

I think this whole episode, and 2020 in general, has really left some (bigger than usual) question marks on the sport in the UK. Or should that be further highlighted certain issues we've known have been there for some time.

As a sport in the UK it genuinely lacks any kind of real ambition. As fans i feel we are being taken for granted, and have been for many many years.

The sport has survived on the total loyalty of the fans for far too long.

[frank]

On 06/11/2020 at 12:34, Yosser said:

And now there is a petition. 

Petitions have never been RL's strength as they all fall out about the wording. With the exception of "The Petition" and the subsequent book .

Although  this one mentions Toronto (and so the fall out begins) it's central message is to object to the power  being in the hands of the clubs and their consequent self interest corrupting their decisions. So hopefully people on either side of the Toronto divide can bring themselves to sign it.

https://www.change.org/p/super-league-make-rugby-league-great-again?recruiter=1161772060&recruited_by_id=c27fb280-1f9c-11eb-af36-6dd4eb480a40&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=copylink&utm_campaign=petition_dashboard

This article needs to be kept on the current page, to enable  casual visitors to the forum the chance to vote on it should they wish to.

[Tommygilf]

Its gets better. It seems the report writers have been unable to identify the significance of Perpignan in France vs Toronto in Canada and deemed them as equals, meaning the outcomes must be the same.

I think Robert Elstone was stung by his PSG experience

[Michael1812]

The that comes out, the more you realise these people don’t have a god damn clue. 

[FearTheVee]

On 08/11/2020 at 13:07, ChrisM said:

That would be the same Gary Carter that wrote this today? https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/13139203/toronto-wolfpacks-super-league-expulsion-will-be-regarded-as-a-betrayal/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebarweb

That report is so full of holes and half-truths, it looks like the authors didn't actually speak to anyone involved in Canadian media or sport, they couldn't even get the name of the most famous hockey team in the world correct (Maple Leafs, not Maple Leaves), they didn't consider the publicity given to the Wolfpack by the Leafs, Raptors, TFC etc via Twitter - the same clubs they use as examples as to why (in their opinion) the market in Toronto is already sewn up. They say how difficult it would be to compete for sponsorship with the major teams without any understanding that the majority of sponsorship for those teams is negotiated at a League level, leaving plenty of room for additional local sponsorship. The report is a farce, a joke and the research was likely done on Wikipedia. 

Maybe if Toronto had prepared their own market appraisal rather than half-arsing a plan and presenting it from a car they could have made all the points you want to be included?  But that would presume a club and owner with half a plan.

[Les Tonks Sidestep]

1 hour ago, Tommygilf said:

Its gets better. It seems the report writers have been unable to identify the significance of Perpignan in France vs Toronto in Canada and deemed them as equals, meaning the outcomes must be the same.

I think Robert Elstone was stung by his PSG experience

Except Catalans are not applying to renew their participation agreement. 

[Les Tonks Sidestep]

13 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

I think he was trying to give a bit of balance.

This balance too? 

"They got burnt pretty bad by us in July when we pulled out. And some of it was unforgivable. We caused major, major challenges for the league and for Sky and plenty of other parties. They had every right to be ###### off at us. And my job over the last six months working with a couple of key people, was to try to convince them that we were going to bring in the next era, the next generation, the next new saviour being Carlo. It’s disappointing that we weren’t able to, but I don’t in any way blame the league or the other owners. That would be totally unfair and unprofessional on my part. We were given a shot and it didn’t work."

[Tommygilf]

4 minutes ago, Les Tonks Sidestep said:

This balance too? 

"They got burnt pretty bad by us in July when we pulled out. And some of it was unforgivable. We caused major, major challenges for the league and for Sky and plenty of other parties. They had every right to be ###### off at us. And my job over the last six months working with a couple of key people, was to try to convince them that we were going to bring in the next era, the next generation, the next new saviour being Carlo. It’s disappointing that we weren’t able to, but I don’t in any way blame the league or the other owners. That would be totally unfair and unprofessional on my part. We were given a shot and it didn’t work."

That's his position?

[Tommygilf]

7 minutes ago, Les Tonks Sidestep said:

Except Catalans are not applying to renew their participation agreement. 

No but it reveals the mentality of the report and some key misunderstandings it makes.

[whatmichaelsays]

1 hour ago, Tommygilf said:

Its gets better. It seems the report writers have been unable to identify the significance of Perpignan in France vs Toronto in Canada and deemed them as equals, meaning the outcomes must be the same.

I think Robert Elstone was stung by his PSG experience

The second part of that is simply incorrect. 

Dacia, a direct central sponsor of Super League and the England national team, is a subsidiary of Groupe Renault.

But, even if we gloss over that error, the statement is made as if it is implying that Catalans are responsible for the lack of French TV and sponsorship income. It cannot credibly hold up these as arguments against expansion without acknowledging how much/how little effort has been made by SLE centrally to achieve such deals. 

[Tommygilf]

4 minutes ago, whatmichaelsays said:

The second part of that is simply incorrect. 

Dacia, a direct central sponsor of Super League and the England national team, is a subsidiary of Groupe Renault.

But, even if we gloss over that error, the statement is made as if it is implying that Catalans are responsible for the lack of French TV and sponsorship income. It cannot credibly hold up these as arguments against expansion without acknowledging how much/how little effort has been made by SLE centrally to achieve such deals. 

If this is just a brief insight into the mentality running our game, it explains a lot.

[Michael1812]

In the end, the clubs voted not to re-admit Toronto and that may have been the right decision but this so called report, based on what we’ve seen, is nothing but a stitch up full of inaccuracies, misleading stats, unsuitable comparisons and poor logic. 

SL either hired incompetent people to put this together or they purposely had it written to cast poor light on Toronto as a market. 
 

 

[Damien]

The rumours about PE investment makes you wonder what bearing that had on this decision too.

[Harry Stottle]

2 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

Its gets better. It seems the report writers have been unable to identify the significance of Perpignan in France vs Toronto in Canada and deemed them as equals, meaning the outcomes must be the same.

I think Robert Elstone was stung by his PSG experience

Whatever you believe about Elstone, I can't see much to be disputed in those 3 paragraphs, albeit the last sentance is a personal view/interpretation by the author, but no one who writes on this site should condemn anyone for their thoughts on any given subject, we all do it.