The General 'Toronto Wolfpack' Discussion Thread

[Dave T]

1 minute ago, Michael1812 said:

Hockey in the USA. Especially the west cost and south west. 

Which clubs were started where they didn't have a presence? 

And presence could be tv viewers, sponsors, awareness, amateur clubs, schools and college participation etc. 

Genuine q by the way, not loaded. 

[Gooleboy]

1 hour ago, Scotchy1 said:

Leeds need to take their position as the biggest club in the game and be big. They need to be getting the headline grabbing crowds, put on the glittering events, and lead the game by pushing the boundaries at that top end. 

As for the developing youngsters. I absolutely disagree. And it's actually a good example of what I am talking about. The 'having a go,' philosophy puts clubs like fev against clubs like Leeds. When in reality that isn't the case. 

When we understand and accept Leeds and fev exist for different reasons and offer different things, there is no reason they can't work in a collegiate way, working together instead of in competition. The game struggles but also, because of the 'having a go' philosophy, steadfastly refuses to share resources. 

The last bit on my post was tongue in cheek just to lighten the mood.

[Gooleboy]

1 hour ago, Les Tonks Sidestep said:

He may want to check out the credentials of Fev's current main shirt sponsor: a multinational operating in 18 countries with revenue of over $2billion.

Not as big as Leeds Building Society!!!!!

[Michael1812]

Just now, Dave T said:

Which clubs were started where they didn't have a presence? 

And presence could be tv viewers, sponsors, awareness, amateur clubs, schools and college participation etc. 

Genuine q by the way, not loaded. 

One major example is the Phoenix Coyotes. They were moved from the ‘heartland city’ of Winnipeg and not because there was an amateur or grass routes scene and not because there was an existing fan base or because they thought it would be successful. The club was moved because it is a major TV market and because it expanded the NHL’s footprint to the last area of the USA to give it a fully national presence. The NHL knew that this could increase TV and sponsorship to the benefit of all 30 clubs. 

[Dave T]

8 minutes ago, Michael1812 said:

One major example is the Phoenix Coyotes. They were moved from the ‘heartland city’ of Winnipeg and not because there was an amateur or grass routes scene and not because there was an existing fan base or because they thought it would be successful. The club was moved because it is a major TV market and because it expanded the NHL’s footprint to the last area of the USA to give it a fully national presence. The NHL knew that this could increase TV and sponsorship to the benefit of all 30 clubs. 

So was Phoenix virgin territory for hockey? And when we say virgin, we are talking about places that don't even know the sport is a thing! That is what we refer to in RL terms. 

Did Phoenix have any background knowledge, any history of hockey, or was it absolutely virgin territory? 

Edit. I see on Google some mentions of the Roadrunners. 

[Scotchy1]

26 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Expanding top-down in virgin territory just isn't done. 

Do you have any examples in other sports? 

Most of the american sports. 

Ice hockey in this country.

It could be argued that that's what the hundred in cricket was trying to achieve. 

[Scotchy1]

14 minutes ago, Gooleboy said:

Not as big as Leeds Building Society!!!!!

I mean, they aren't but regardless. How much is this multinational sponsor paying to be on fevs  shirt? 100k? A million? 10m?

Or is it papa johns slice of pizza time?

[Scotchy1]

22 minutes ago, Dave T said:

So was Phoenix virgin territory for hockey? And when we say virgin, we are talking about places that don't even know the sport is a thing! That is what we refer to in RL terms. 

Did Phoenix have any background knowledge, any history of hockey, or was it absolutely virgin territory? 

Edit. I see on Google some mentions of the Roadrunners. 

Its a circular argument. 

At some point anywhere any sport was played was virgin territory.

You might find some pub league or semi pro side in pheonix before the coyotes or Vegas before the knights, but is that really closer to nfl and nhl than Toronto pre WP were to SL? 

Let's not forget Toronto where holding internationals in front of thousands pre wolfpack. So are they then even virgin territory?

Are there no true Scotsmen?

[Gooleboy]

9 minutes ago, Scotchy1 said:

I mean, they aren't but regardless. How much is this multinational sponsor paying to be on fevs  shirt? 100k? A million? 10m?

Or is it papa johns slice of pizza time?

Not Papa John's, that excellent deal is exclusive to Super League. 

[Scotchy1]

1 minute ago, Gooleboy said:

Not Papa John's, that excellent deal is exclusive to Super League. 

Papa johns is a terrible deal for SL. But its value would he huge for fev.

 

[Gooleboy]

2 minutes ago, Scotchy1 said:

Papa johns is a terrible deal for SL. But its value would he huge for fev.

 

Nah, we've got Pizza Hut, much bigger.

[Dave T]

6 minutes ago, Scotchy1 said:

Its a circular argument. 

At some point anywhere any sport was played was virgin territory.

You might find some pub league or semi pro side in pheonix before the coyotes or Vegas before the knights, but is that really closer to nfl and nhl than Toronto pre WP were to SL? 

Let's not forget Toronto where holding internationals in front of thousands pre wolfpack. So are they then even virgin territory?

Are there no true Scotsmen?

We are talking about a SL club being admitted and claims that this is not expansion if there is already activity there. 

The Phoenix example had a previous club there from the 1960's. 

I'm not the one claiming expansion is only expansion if in virgin territory. I'm saying that new clubs are not admitted in leagues without a level of interest. Nobody has provided an example yet, although I think your UK Ice Hockey is probably a decent one. 

[Dave T]

26 minutes ago, Scotchy1 said:

Most of the american sports. 

Ice hockey in this country.

It could be argued that that's what the hundred in cricket was trying to achieve. 

I'm not sure of your hundred point, could you elaborate? 

[Scotchy1]

1 minute ago, Dave T said:

We are talking about a SL club being admitted and claims that this is not expansion if there is already activity there. 

The Phoenix example had a previous club there from the 1960's. 

I'm not the one claiming expansion is only expansion if in virgin territory. I'm saying that new clubs are not admitted in leagues without a level of interest. Nobody has provided an example yet, although I think your UK Ice Hockey is probably a decent one. 

The Roadrunners themselves were an expansion side put in a top tier. 

They lasted a few years decades ago and then the coyotes where invented. At some point someone plonked a pro hockey club in the virgin territory of phoenix 

[Dave T]

2 minutes ago, Scotchy1 said:

The Roadrunners themselves were an expansion side put in a top tier. 

They lasted a few years decades ago and then the coyotes where invented. At some point someone plonked a pro hockey club in the virgin territory of phoenix 

Ah, no, from a quick read the Roadrunners existed for a while across various divisions, before the Phoenix Coyotes were created in the top flight. 

This isn't being classed as expansion for RL in Catalans or Toulouse for some reason. 

[Scotchy1]

2 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I'm not sure of your hundred point, could you elaborate? 

Well the intention of the hundred was to move beyond the county leagues and attract a new audience for cricket. 

That's why the teams were Manchester and Birmingham.

You can argue cricket was played in these areas, after all the stadia are existing County grounds, but the intention was to attract people to go see manchestet but not lancs, London but not Surrey. 

To all intents and purposes they created a top down competition to appeal to places that cricket wasn't popular.

[Scotchy1]

1 minute ago, Dave T said:

Ah, no, from a quick read the Roadrunners existed for a while across various divisions, before the Phoenix Coyotes were created in the top flight. 

This isn't being classed as expansion for RL in Catalans or Toulouse for some reason. 

I think you are transplanting the British structure on to the NA structure and it doesn't match. 

Pheonix weren't in the NHL but nor where they in a league below that. They didn't have that pyramidal structure. They largley just had a lot of different top levels. They were at the top of the pro structure they were in.

[Dave T]

3 minutes ago, Scotchy1 said:

I think you are transplanting the British structure on to the NA structure and it doesn't match. 

Pheonix weren't in the NHL but nor where they in a league below that. They didn't have that pyramidal structure. They largley just had a lot of different top levels. They were at the top of the pro structure they were in.

Similar to Catalans then in their former guises. 

But the point is that it is only expansion if you are going into virgin territories. I think that is wrong. If Phoenix had another team since the 1960s that is not virgin territory and wouldn't meet the 'expansion' criteria that people are applying to RL. 

[Michael1812]

45 minutes ago, Dave T said:

So was Phoenix virgin territory for hockey? And when we say virgin, we are talking about places that don't even know the sport is a thing! That is what we refer to in RL terms. 

Did Phoenix have any background knowledge, any history of hockey, or was it absolutely virgin territory? 

Edit. I see on Google some mentions of the Roadrunners. 

Yes in the 70s there was an minor league teams but 20 plus years later there would have been very little memory of them. People world also be conscious of hockey as an Olympic sport but Arizona is a desert where winter sports don’t really exist  

I also think people get too caught up in differentiating between the two codes of rugby in new areas. 99.9% of people in North America don’t realise there are two versions of rugby, nor do they care. I’d say hockey in Arizona was as well know as rugby in Toronto. 

 

[Dave T]

Just now, Michael1812 said:

Yes in the 70s there was an minor league teams but 20 plus years later there would have been very little memory of them. People world also be conscious of hockey as an Olympic sport but Arizona is a desert where winter sports don’t really exist  

I also think people get too caught up in differentiating between the two codes of rugby in new areas. 99.9% of people in North America don’t realise there are two versions of rugby, nor do they care. I’d say hockey in Arizona was as well know as rugby in Toronto. 

 

Google is sketchy on this, but werent they also in the International Hockey League until 1997?

[Michael1812]

And it’s not just Arizona. What about, Florida, North Carolina, Tennessee, Texas and California? These were all non hockey markets that that NHL expanded into to grow the game from the top down. 

[LeytherRob]

25 minutes ago, Scotchy1 said:

Papa johns is a terrible deal for SL. But its value would he huge for fev.

 

It wouldn't even be huge for Fev. I've played at Amatuer clubs that have been sponsored for free Pizzas etc. 

[Scotchy1]

7 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Similar to Catalans then in their former guises. 

But the point is that it is only expansion if you are going into virgin territories. I think that is wrong. If Phoenix had another team since the 1960s that is not virgin territory and wouldn't meet the 'expansion' criteria that people are applying to RL. 

As I say, there are no true Scotsmen.

Pheonix didn't have a team since the 60s  they had a team in the 60s for a few years.

Now you can argue that this made them none-virgin territory for hockey. But this would make a bit of a meaningless title.

But even with that definition. Pheonix wers still virgi  territory when the roadrunners were created. 

[Michael1812]

2 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Google is sketchy on this, but werent they also in the International Hockey League until 1997?

If Google doesn’t know, I am not going to be any more knowledgable.

if you have time, compare the birthplaces on the roster of the American u20 hockey teams from the past few years with 20 years ago. You’ll see that players are starting to be developed in the southern and western states of America where it use to be only the mid west and north east. 

[Scotchy1]

3 minutes ago, LeytherRob said:

It wouldn't even be huge for Fev. I've played at Amatuer clubs that have been sponsored for free Pizzas etc. 

As a financial sum the cost of free papa johns pizza after every game for every team is a surprisingly large amount.

Not enough for a professional sports league but still not pennies.

I'd expect that the cost (at retail price) values the deal about 100k.