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The General 'Toronto Wolfpack' Discussion Thread


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1 minute ago, Dave T said:

TWP have absolutely made a lot of bad decisions. Even before coronavirus, but that is part of the learning curve. 

But when deciding on future action, we should remove all impacts of coronavirus. If coronavirus hadn't come along, could they have paid, would they have been an asset to SL, and could they be an asset in 2021, if the answer is yes, and they can provide guarantees and learn from past actions, I think there is a place for them. 

I quite agree, but we need to be pragmatic, TWP are not the saviours of RL to be preserved at all costs 

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I am devastated by todays decision.Obviously I think its wrong but I think it shows the narrow minded thinking of most super league clubs.I very much doubt the Wolfpack will ever be back as I don't se

Rugby League as a sport - fans, owners, administrators, the lot - gets what it deserves. There was an opportunity here, an owner who's spent £10m, a growing fanbase and a very attractive market,

To avoid the forum being swamped with dozens of individual threads about Toronto which generally all end up heading down the same rabbit hole eventually anyway, we're opening this general discussion t

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Just now, Chrispmartha said:

I quite agree, but we need to be pragmatic, TWP are not the saviours of RL to be preserved at all costs 

I don't think my approach above suggests they are. 

But I'd rather run with a 12 team SL and if they were to fail, I'd rather it was because of their own performance, whereas the world going crazy is not that. 

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5 minutes ago, Derwent said:

And the tangible benefits of that have been......?

Well none because of Coronavirus and the fact they have been able to play at home. I don't think any contingency planning could have foreseen that. 

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9 hours ago, Loup said:

Wonder if she's John Davidson's source? Even so, really poor form.

I think under the present circumstances in how Mr Davidson was described and ridiculed by some in these pages just for doing his job, he is owed a huge apology. He intimated there was more to come, he definitely wasn't wrong.

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6 minutes ago, Damien said:

Well none because of Coronavirus and the fact they have been able to play at home. I don't think any contingency planning could have foreseen that. 

No it couldn't and I have a lot of sympathy for their plight, however when you spend so much on one player then you struggle to pay players questions have to be asked coronavirus or not.

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8 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I don't think my approach above suggests they are. 

But I'd rather run with a 12 team SL and if they were to fail, I'd rather it was because of their own performance, whereas the world going crazy is not that. 

No I'm not suggesting you were saying that, it was more a general comment about how some people view TWP.

I'm more than happy for them to compete next year in SL, I do think they need some kind of punishment for just packing up shop after they had given assurance that they would play this year though.

 

I'm also more than happy if they get their fair share if the TV money, I personally don't think having that this year would have stopped what has happened though, the Visa situation for one is nothing to do with money.

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6 minutes ago, Chrispmartha said:

No it couldn't and I have a lot of sympathy for their plight, however when you spend so much on one player then you struggle to pay players questions have to be asked coronavirus or not.

But the reason they are struggling to pay other players is entirely due to the virus, they will have budgeted his wages in with all the incomings and outgoings and it would have balanced. Except now they have 0 incomings, none at all, not even central funding from the RFL. Weighting all of this against one signing is wrong, signing SBW has nothing to do with the predicament they are in.

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1 minute ago, Chrispmartha said:

No I'm not suggesting you were saying that, it was more a general comment about how some people view TWP.

I'm more than happy for them to compete next year in SL, I do think they need some kind of punishment for just packing up shop after they had given assurance that they would play this year though.

 

I'm also more than happy if they get their fair share if the TV money, I personally don't think having that this year would have stopped what has happened though, the Visa situation for one is nothing to do with money.

There are lessons to be learnt. But why have Catalans survived and been a success whereas Toronto are on the brink?

Catalans get a share of the sky tv money, Toronto do not.
Catalans entered our league system in Super League, Toronto entered in League One. Catalans do not pay away teams travel costs, Toronto do pay away teams travel costs. Catalans were exempt from relegation for 3 years, Toronto were not given any exemption.

Toronto can be saved if we recognise where we’ve gone wrong and correct it immediately. 

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1 minute ago, Chrispmartha said:

No I'm not suggesting you were saying that, it was more a general comment about how some people view TWP.

I'm more than happy for them to compete next year in SL, I do think they need some kind of punishment for just packing up shop after they had given assurance that they would play this year though.

 

I'm also more than happy if they get their fair share if the TV money, I personally don't think having that this year would have stopped what has happened though, the Visa situation for one is nothing to do with money.

If they want to play in SL next year and can guarantee their participation (in a normal world)' I think a decent fine/fee should be enough. 

They have brought SL into disrepute by the timing of this and backing out of commitments, but as I listed earlier, we have had to cancel all sorts of stuff. 

I just wish they had done this before the restart detail announcements as it could have been stage-managed. The risk is do the other clubs see that as a dirty tactic to try and secure the finance from the clubs that they asked for. 

But had this been announced a few weeks ago, it could have been presented pretty reasonably that trans-atlantic travel is impossible this year so TWP would hibernate until next season. 

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If any club deserve to be back in SL, it's gotta be Oldham... there fan's are the most passionate. 

I remember in 97 in a local pub 3 Man U fan's walk into the pub and said to this bloke who was wearing a Oldam RL jersey, he looks like Magrate Thatcher and rugby league sucks.

He got out of his chair knocked all 3 of them out... and even took one of the Man U supports jersey off while he was out cold, as a trophy. To this day the jersey is framed and hanged up at the pub (with a small amount of blood on it) 

 

The funny thing is the bloke still drinks there and oddly enough he sort of does look like the former Prime Minister 

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Just now, dkw said:

But the reason they are struggling to pay other players is entirely due to the virus, they will have budgeted his wages in with all the incomings and outgoings and it would have balanced. Except now they have 0 incomings, none at all, not even central funding from the RFL. Weighting all of this against one signing is wrong, signing SBW has nothing to do with the predicament they are in.

It's not quite true it has nothing to do with it. Spending £5m on wages instead of £2.5m increases risk, but nobody could plan for covid so its harsh to judge them on that. 

But your main point is exactly right, their budget has been shattered. So have many others, but government support, and being able to play some games in our home territory, maybe even with crowds will help. 

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8 hours ago, CanadianRugger said:

"For now both Super League and the Rugby Football League should learn exactly what it takes and what is needed for expansion teams, especially ones in the USA and Canada, to come in."

The bit above is from Mr Argyle's press statement,

Have I not been saying for long time that Toronto Wolfpack are a work in progress, a prototype that is not proven and before going "into production" and admitting other clubs, learn the positives and negatives from Toronto's experiences in the RFL, the decide if NA teams are a fit into our structure.

It is simple business practice, but hey the band was playing, the flags were waving, the drum was bashed and the majorettes were dancing. 

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7 minutes ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

Toronto could return all the central funding they have received over the last 4 years. That seems a reasonable fee.

Zzz. That was the deal they struck. At the time everybody was happy.

It’s only now that Toronto has realised a big NA TV deal was fantasyland that they want central funding.

I’d imagine David Argyle has destroyed any remaining trust within the game about the Toronto Wolfpack and after this week Super League will see any talk of ‘guarantees’ as hollow. Several SL chairmen were critical of Toronto at the best of times - penny for their thoughts now.

They may have to press the reset button and work their way up again, but this time as a full RFL member, perhaps taking a licence from a League 1 club. 

I think it’s more likely that Argyle pulls out. 

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46 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I don't think my approach above suggests they are. 

But I'd rather run with a 12 team SL and if they were to fail, I'd rather it was because of their own performance, whereas the world going crazy is not that. 

Do you not think that if Toronto under normal circumstances had finished bottom this year, that the very same people who are shouting the loudest at this situation, would not again have taken up the mantle again and campaigned that  "They cannot be allowed to be relegated" 

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3 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Do you not think that if Toronto under normal circumstances had finished bottom this year, that the very same people who are shouting the loudest at this situation, would not again have taken up the mantle again and campaigned that  "They cannot be allowed to be relegated" 

Of course, but that's not really relevant. Plenty have been up front with believing in relegation exemptions, or even scrapping p and r altogether. 

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6 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

Zzz. That was the deal they struck. At the time everybody was happy.

It’s only now that Toronto has realised a big NA TV deal was fantasyland that they want central funding.

I’d imagine David Argyle has destroyed any remaining trust within the game about the Toronto Wolfpack and after this week Super League will see any talk of ‘guarantees’ as hollow. Several SL chairmen were critical of Toronto at the best of times - penny for their thoughts now.

They may have to press the reset button and work their way up again, but this time as a full RFL member, perhaps taking a licence from a League 1 club. 

I think it’s more likely that Argyle pulls out. 

Toronto said they’d take no central funding and pay other clubs travel costs until they got into Super League. Once they reached Super League they were supposed to compete on a level playing field on even terms. Robert Elstone refused to give Toronto their share and distributed it to the other Super League clubs. Elstone seems to be silent now. 

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1 minute ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

Toronto said they’d take no central funding and pay other clubs travel costs until they got into Super League. Once they reached Super League they were supposed to compete on a level playing field on even terms. Robert Elstone refused to give Toronto their share and distributed it to the other Super League clubs. Elstone seems to be silent now. 

I'm sure the contract they have stating all that will be enforceable then. 

 

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39 minutes ago, dkw said:

But the reason they are struggling to pay other players is entirely due to the virus, they will have budgeted his wages in with all the incomings and outgoings and it would have balanced. Except now they have 0 incomings, none at all, not even central funding from the RFL. Weighting all of this against one signing is wrong, signing SBW has nothing to do with the predicament they are in.

But his salary certainly eats away very quickly at the 'Rainy day Fund' dk.

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39 minutes ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

There are lessons to be learnt. But why have Catalans survived and been a success whereas Toronto are on the brink?

Catalans get a share of the sky tv money, Toronto do not.
Catalans entered our league system in Super League, Toronto entered in League One. Catalans do not pay away teams travel costs, Toronto do pay away teams travel costs. Catalans were exempt from relegation for 3 years, Toronto were not given any exemption.

Toronto can be saved if we recognise where we’ve gone wrong and correct it immediately. 

the Dragons have a history, a viable economic model with many sponsors and the French public authorities with them, a real audience, French players, a rugby school, an identity etc etc. To believe that we can build a club with millions of dollars is a huge mistake. I hope that the leaders of the RFL will come back to reality and give Toulouse a chance, which is definitely the best candidate to develop the sport both in France and in England with a real derby and the possibility of having a deal with French TV.

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9 hours ago, The British Lion said:

This is horrendous news. Rugby League (The RFL / Super League) CONTINUOUSLY fail in new ventures with big futures. 

Crusaders

Gateshead - but pleased Newcastle are doing a great job in the aftermath.

Even London Crusaders/Broncos

Paris St Germain

and now ... Toronto, with so so much promise.

Yes, it's very strange times. But the 'value' to Toronto WP from our game is non existent. How does this speak to future investors??

Unbelievable. Im almost ready to give up on RL. The vision of the game is dire.

I love Warrington. But, do I want to watch Wire V M62 corridor club 3-5 times a year, with no meaningful internationals. No.

The games vision is killing my appetite for RL.

I think that I'm nearly through with game and i say that that as someone who's been involved at different levels for over 50 years.

This is just another debacle following on from the RFL wanting certain clubs to pay a bond to enter the challenge cup and the disbanding of the reserves competition.

I really see no future for the game in this country and it saddens me to say that, but I'm not wrong.

It the game is to survive will need competent people at the RFL and it's clear we don't

 

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