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The General 'Toronto Wolfpack' Discussion Thread


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23 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Well yes but that wasn't the question, which was 'what do you consider they bring to the Championship' considering what I said.

I'm not sure what the relevance of the question is. What did London bring to the Championship after being relegated for 2020?

If they are demoted from SL, the Championship is the division below. If they want to make them start at the very bottom its L1, or they can exclude them altogether. 

I want to see TWP carry on as an RL club, because I want to see every club carry on in RL.

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Just a side thought... should the RFL have to ensure o/s teams secure support from the governing body of France/Canada before accepting such a team? 

If that were the case then the CRL/FFRxiii could mandate a minimum of home players before providing such endorsement. 

Surely there should be such a process in hindsight. And how differently the wolfpack (and catalans) could have been! 

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It's pretty obvious that the only way any club playing a large percentage of its home games on the other side of the Atlantic, be that Toronto, Ottawa or NY is if it secures two things. 

1. A TV Deal that pays a squad of players without a 'rich' owner dipping into his pockets, and enough to give the rest of the teams in its League a lump sum each that covers it's away trip across the pond (travel & accommodation) 

2. A large main sponsor that covers flights for it, an airline to provide services in lieu of cash, if not an airline then a prominent company to pay cash in a sponsor deal that covers the teams travel. 

Nothing will work without those 2 above mentioned conditions. Not even a '''billionaire''' who promises the world. 

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1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

Hi LD, considering the Champ clubs are not as let's say as financially blessed as SL clubs who still demanded flight and subsistence compensation for visiting Canada, and Mr Argyle says TWP should no longer stand those costs for visiting clubs, so do you think TWP whoever the ownership lies with will still cover those costs?

I think that if they want to play in the British Rugby League system it is something they will have to carry on doing in whatever division they are in. 

Also a couple of months ago, maybe not that long there were rumours that some of the L1 clubs were seemingly against the trips they will have to make to Ottawa, not heard anything since, anyone.

I don’t know on the costs, but they have already followed that route and I haven’t read any negative comments from TWP on them.

The Champs would be the most obvious place to start.  I doubt they would get a flock of players rushing to sign up either, given their history on paying.

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5 minutes ago, Lowdesert said:

I don’t know on the costs, but they have already followed that route and I haven’t read any negative comments from TWP on them.

The Champs would be the most obvious place to start.  I doubt they would get a flock of players rushing to sign up either, given their history on paying.

Hasn't Mr Argyle stated that he needs a share of the funding and visiting teams to stand their own costs to make TWP more viable.

The point I was making is Championship clubs simply can't afford to do that.

On your second point, yes I think any player would be wary and want some gaurentee of payments before signing, it is no use people saying that doesn't apply to other clubs, other clubs are not stationed across the Atlantic, well apart from Ottawa who I believe should also be treated with the same respect.

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2 hours ago, SL17 said:

Contractually no. The minimum is 12.

I didn't know that, SL17.  Between or among which parties is the contract, and for how long is it intended to last?

it raises interesting issues including whether, if TWP survive but are meant to revert to the championship, the RFL are willing and able to accommodate them there.  Also, if TWP are not in SL, how you decide, and when, who takes their place?

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1 hour ago, Smudger06 said:

It's pretty obvious that the only way any club playing a large percentage of its home games on the other side of the Atlantic, be that Toronto, Ottawa or NY is if it secures two things. 

1. A TV Deal that pays a squad of players without a 'rich' owner dipping into his pockets, and enough to give the rest of the teams in its League a lump sum each that covers it's away trip across the pond (travel & accommodation) 

2. A large main sponsor that covers flights for it, an airline to provide services in lieu of cash, if not an airline then a prominent company to pay cash in a sponsor deal that covers the teams travel. 

Nothing will work without those 2 above mentioned conditions. Not even a '''billionaire''' who promises the world. 

By and large, yes. I'm not even sure the TV deal would need to be that good - a broadcaster willing to film the games for  HD broadcast standard would probably be enough, as those games could be sold on to Sky, increasing the value of the domestic TV deal. But the Wolfpack never even got that far. 

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1 minute ago, Toby Chopra said:

By and large, yes. I'm not even sure the TV deal would need to be that good - a broadcaster willing to film the games for  HD broadcast standard would probably be enough, as those games could be sold on to Sky, increasing the value of the domestic TV deal. But the Wolfpack never even got that far. 

Surely it would have to be reasonably substantial otherwise where's any investor going to get any money back? I can't see anyone putting money into the Wolfpack now.  There;s no return and even if there was it would be years away and negligible.

I genuinely feel sorry for Wolfpack fans,but nobody else comes away from this debacle with any credit.

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"At times to be silent is to lie. You will win because you have enough brute force. But you will not convince. For to convince you need to persuade. And in order to persuade you would need what you lack: Reason and Right."

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I'm not saying that the WP club handled all things well. But DA has poured money into this club and has basically walked away, while 11 SL benefitted financially. It all seems very callous to me. 

The whole situation that the WP has had to deal with, from a ridiculous “pay for everything and we'll give you nothing in return” philosophy to an unprecedented pandemic Is appalling. The lack of concern and support SL has shown the WP from day one is sadly mirrored here by some of you.

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It takes wisdom to know when a discussion has run its course.

It takes reasonableness to end that discussion. 

 

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5 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

Newcastle Thunder's owners want to buy Toronto's licence, apparently. Hat tip to Mr Plow. https://inews.co.uk/sport/rugby-league/newcastle-thunder-super-league-toronto-wolfpack-falcons-rugby-union-571002

Obviously that would mean the demise of t'Wolfpack, but do they have a licence to sell? 

It's an interesting one this. It seems to me that these lower division clubs are championing bringing back licensing by trying to bid their way into the SL. 

It's an interesting development that may come back to bite them on the ass long term. 

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1 minute ago, Dave T said:

It's an interesting one this. It seems to me that these lower division clubs are championing bringing back licensing by trying to bid their way into the SL. 

It's an interesting development that may come back to bite them on the ass long term. 

Ottawa did it buying Hemels license. Question is does Toronto spot still exist?

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Just now, Dave T said:

It's an interesting one this. It seems to me that these lower division clubs are championing bringing back licensing by trying to bid their way into the SL. 

It's an interesting development that may come back to bite them on the ass long term. 

Out of all the lower league clubs Newcastle could be one I could get behind. Since they were cast aside after the “merger” they’ve grown the North East well, first as Gateshead and have continued as Newcastle  They’ve got some solid community foundations and turn out an a academy side which plenty of established clubs ain’t bothered about

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1 minute ago, Mr Plow said:

Ottawa did it buying Hemels license. Question is does Toronto spot still exist?

Well, quite.

It seems an expensive albeit potentially guaranteed way into SL with all the unpaid wages, creditors etc. They must know something, as DaveT suggests. 

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26 minutes ago, RayCee said:

I'm not saying that the WP club handled all things well. But DA has poured money into this club and has basically walked away, while 11 SL benefitted financially. It all seems very callous to me. 

The whole situation that the WP has had to deal with, from a ridiculous “pay for everything and we'll give you nothing in return” philosophy to an unprecedented pandemic Is appalling. The lack of concern and support SL has shown the WP from day one is sadly mirrored here by some of you.

Covid is a convenient cover.

Writing has been on the wall for ages with cost cutting, unpaid bills, delayed wages long before COVID.  They stopped filming their own games to save a few quid last year - strange behaviour for an outfit with ambitions of being a publically listed global superbrand.

They came with promises of playing their away fixtures in glamorous Eiropean locations, ended up settling for Wasps then couldn't even make that stick and ended up in Warrington.  Shouting about north american TV deals, then complaining that they weren't cut into the UK one.

The whole thing has been an exercise in hot air.  It was nevert going to be remotely viable - I don't know if DA ran out of cash, but it certainly dawned on him that there was a big old gap between the hot air spouted and reality.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

Well, quite.

It seems an expensive albeit potentially guaranteed way into SL with all the unpaid wages, creditors etc. They must know something, as DaveT suggests. 

Think either of these could be sensible options

1) Toronto situation gets resolved and they start again 2021

2) no relegation next year but one team is promoted

3) Toronto’s spot gets ‘auctioned off’

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18 hours ago, wiganermike said:

That statement certainly suggests that David Argyle not being involved was a condition of TWP being allowed to continue in the RFL/SL competitions. Hopefully the change in ownership will lead to a more stable and sustainable future for the club.

Yes, that usually happens when new owners take over as we have seen in other sports.

Oh!

Sport, amongst other things, is a dream-world offering escape from harsh reality and the disturbing prospect of change.

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16 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

Newcastle Thunder's owners want to buy Toronto's licence, apparently. Hat tip to Mr Plow. https://inews.co.uk/sport/rugby-league/newcastle-thunder-super-league-toronto-wolfpack-falcons-rugby-union-571002

Obviously that would mean the demise of t'Wolfpack, but do they have a licence to sell? 

Too big a step.  

All well and good playing against the top sides but they would have to gamble of a good few quality players on medium term (say 2years) contracts, as I doubt many would relish a single years security.

i think the key to all this is what Elstone, Hudgell have alluded to with a SL of 11 teams and promotion from the Champs every year until it gets to 14 followed by a 3 year lock in.

So, after detailed analysis, I predict:

Year 1 - London

Year 2 - TO

Year 3 - Featherstone.

Then 3 year lock in before review.

Tin hat time 😎

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12 hours ago, Oldbear said:

Could they have an 11 team league next year and just not include Catalans in Magic? Is that even possible? The reason I raise it is that given that there will be no Championship you can’t promote anyone. Parachuting a team in is likely to set off a whole raft of lawsuits from the other candidates with a strong case and I see absolutely no way that Toronto would be back next year, they have no owner, no assets, no sponsors and very soon no players and although technically there’s time to sort that out it’s not that much time, given that SL needs a prompt start next year as it’s a World Cup year. So unless there’s a hidden plan to relegate someone and give a 10 team comp, or someone else in SL is about to go pop an 11 team comp seems like the only solution.

Lawsuits against whom?

Sport, amongst other things, is a dream-world offering escape from harsh reality and the disturbing prospect of change.

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