The General 'Toronto Wolfpack' Discussion Thread

[Dave T]

1 hour ago, RobertAM said:

Same could be said of SL, take away the SKY money and most if not every team would fold. That's not a lame duck it's  a dead one.

It's an interesting point, take away income and teams fold. 

It is an odd thing to throw about when we have seen a flavour of that happen and the one that collapsed was the one with the billionaire backer. 

A bit more humility wouldn't go amiss. 

[Smudger06]

1 hour ago, RobertAM said:

Same could be said of SL, take away the SKY money and most if not every team would fold. That's not a lame duck it's  a dead one.

That's not a SL issue, that's an issue for any Pro Sports League. In a scenario like that, the bigger the League, the harder they will fall. 

[RobertAM]

1 minute ago, Dave T said:

It's an interesting point, take away income and teams fold. 

It is an odd thing to throw about when we have seen a flavour of that happen and the one that collapsed was the one with the billionaire backer. 

A bit more humility wouldn't go amiss. 

So you'd have the backer throw in even more money so that the show can go on smoothly thus ensuring the remaining SL teams get their SKY funding...that kind of humility??

[Robin Evans]

13 hours ago, RobertAM said:

So you'd have the backer throw in even more money so that the show can go on smoothly thus ensuring the remaining SL teams get their SKY funding...that kind of humility??

Well I'd certainly have the backer honouring his obligations to his employees..... 

[Dave T]

13 hours ago, RobertAM said:

So you'd have the backer throw in even more money so that the show can go on smoothly thus ensuring the remaining SL teams get their SKY funding...that kind of humility??

I'm not really sure what this point means tbh. 

All clubs are taking a hit financially due to covid. All shareholders, fans, sponsors etc are doing their best to get the SL up and running. Only the one with the billionaire backer who was the saviour of the game has failed to make the starting line. 

I have plenty of sympathy with TWP for the impacts of Covid, but something is not adding up here. 

[meast]

22 hours ago, FearTheVee said:

If SL entertain Toronto in any form they want their heads testing.

It's a lame duck, a money pit of a vanity project.

But yet it should and probably COULD have been done right with a proper action plan for development rather than being "fastracked" into SL, yes, they won promotion on the field as it should be, but they were always going to be in SL within 3/4 years with their model.

As I've said, Toronto could still be a part of the pyramid, but they, and other "expansion/franchise" clubs must be made to have some focus on development, as Wilkin alluded to on the super league show this week, they've thrown plenty of money at the playing side of things but no so much on the office staff to develop and run the club.

[Keith989]

14 hours ago, Tex Evans Thigh said:

Ok, well let's agree on the fact that having teams in an established league makes them more appealing, at least to start with. I doubt Toronto would have gotten anywhere near the support had they just started up in a NA league. If you could get 6 teams built up to that kind of level you could start to look at conferences with where there is less need for intercontinental travel.

We're now a long, long way away from that.

Oh yeah completely agree. Every MLR team is trying to get to where the Wolfpack are in terms of appeal.

[Dave T]

1 hour ago, meast said:

But yet it should and probably COULD have been done right with a proper action plan for development rather than being "fastracked" into SL, yes, they won promotion on the field as it should be, but they were always going to be in SL within 3/4 years with their model.

As I've said, Toronto could still be a part of the pyramid, but they, and other "expansion/franchise" clubs must be made to have some focus on development, as Wilkin alluded to on the super league show this week, they've thrown plenty of money at the playing side of things but no so much on the office staff to develop and run the club.

The reason there is hope for Toronto and other similar projects is that TWP have managed to do is cultivate a fanbase, which is one of the most difficult things to do, many existing long term clubs struggle with that. It is quite amazing that they have done what they have being based in Rochdale and not always having a great presence in the City. 

What they have struggled to do is make it even close to being sustainable, despite all the talk of selling more merchandise than the rest of SL put together and things like the CBD stuff. But I don't think that's a bad thing as long as it is planned losses. As long as you are well funded, the losses are relatively modest in the sporting world and if it is part of a fully funded 10 year plus plan, then losing plenty of money as a startup isn't a problem and should be expected. 

Unfortunately Covid has put paid to that, and whilst we can debate the actual Rugby club, it isn't that that is the issue. It is Argyle's fortune (or lack of) that has become the problem. Apparently he has sunk £20m over 3/4 years, and even if this year was a complete write off it would probably add c£10m max to that, so we aren't talking stupid numbers. But then covid has meant that Argyle doesn't have these funds to cover these relatively. Modest challenges to budget (they probably forecast a loss of c£5m already based on what he has already sunk per year). 

So the actual RL operation isn't that big an issue for somebody with a bit of money to invest. Let's be honest the income is probably at the lowest levels they will ever be and may mean a £5 to £6m investment per year. That will only get better with more sensible cost management, plus a negotiated media income (whether from UK deals or NA deals). 

The RL club ain't necessarily the problem here, it's the owner. There have been warning signs for the last 12 months at least, these have been dismissed but ultimately Argyle was not fulfilling his promises well before Covid came along and blew the whole thing up. 

I hope out of the 10 to 20k people that they got interested in TWP that a few of them have money and fancy getting involved themselves. 

[Dave T]

1 hour ago, Keith989 said:

Oh yeah completely agree. Every MLR team is trying to get to where the Wolfpack are in terms of appeal.

This is why I don't have an issue with it costing TWP or other clubs to enter the UK pyramid (or SL directly). As much as fans here have a downer on it, being part of an established league has given the TWP project credibility that is a struggle for an NA league to achieve in the short term. 

It's a shame we may never see them as an SL club with the fans and atmosphere that would be created. 

[Keith989]

12 minutes ago, Dave T said:

This is why I don't have an issue with it costing TWP or other clubs to enter the UK pyramid (or SL directly). As much as fans here have a downer on it, being part of an established league has given the TWP project credibility that is a struggle for an NA league to achieve in the short term. 

It's a shame we may never see them as an SL club with the fans and atmosphere that would be created. 

It's been an exciting process and the TWP are the reason why I watched my first ever SL game a few months back. I was really looking forward to seeing if they would pack out lamport for their home games. There are so, so many issues that need sorting however. For instance playing "home" games in England is simply unsustainable no matter how much money is getting ploughed into the club. The fans and club would only put up with that for so long.

[Tex Evans Thigh]

53 minutes ago, Dave T said:

This is why I don't have an issue with it costing TWP or other clubs to enter the UK pyramid (or SL directly). As much as fans here have a downer on it, being part of an established league has given the TWP project credibility that is a struggle for an NA league to achieve in the short term. 

It's a shame we may never see them as an SL club with the fans and atmosphere that would be created. 

To me, its the only way to grow clubs in other countries. It gives them instant credibility and an intrigue that simply isnt available to most sports teams. Not quite apple with apples but I imagine if they ever get the London NFL franchise off the ground it will be a massive success, particularly compared to the London Monarchs experiment.

[Keith989]

2 minutes ago, Tex Evans Thigh said:

To me, its the only way to grow clubs in other countries. It gives them instant credibility and an intrigue that simply isnt available to most sports teams. Not quite apple with apples but I imagine if they ever get the London NFL franchise off the ground it will be a massive success, particularly compared to the London Monarchs experiment.

What happened with the London Monarchs, if you don't mind me asking?

[Tex Evans Thigh]

8 minutes ago, Keith989 said:

What happened with the London Monarchs, if you don't mind me asking?

Dont remember exactly but I think the whole league folded. They were part of NFL Europe which was a flop. Monarchs had some fanfare and plenty of publicity and were in the market for Ellery Hanley at one point. Interest dropped and it was ultimately a failure.

[Robin Evans]

6 minutes ago, Tex Evans Thigh said:

Dont remember exactly but I think the whole league folded. They were part of NFL Europe which was a flop. Monarchs had some fanfare and plenty of publicity and were in the market for Ellery Hanley at one point. Interest dropped and it was ultimately a failure.

Correct on all points

[Gerrumonside ref]

23 minutes ago, Keith989 said:

What happened with the London Monarchs, if you don't mind me asking?

I think the hardcore NFL fans got disillusioned with a second rate product on the field until only the German based teams remained.

Basically the best players were playing in the states and only rejects or practice squad members made it to NFL Europe.  

Some players did make the reverse journey back to America with success, but crucially they weren’t big names while in Europe.

I think the reason NFL regular season games are so successful in London is that the games are meaningful and the teams are sending their best players.

[Blind side johnny]

20 hours ago, Smudger06 said:

Sky don't want teams dropping out. 

....of SL.

[Blind side johnny]

19 hours ago, Man of Kent said:

I’d be more sympathetic if Toronto didn’t have the appearance of a tax write-off scheme for which there is no further need. 

If someone was looking for a tax write off scheme there are many, many easier ways of doing it.

Why not find some generosity in your soul and say that they gave it a decent shot but, for a host of reasons, failed.

[fighting irish]

44 minutes ago, Blind side johnny said:

If someone was looking for a tax write off scheme there are many, many easier ways of doing it.

Why not find some generosity in your soul and say that they gave it a decent shot but, for a host of reasons, failed.

Well said Johnny. 

[Robin Evans]

1 hour ago, Blind side johnny said:

If someone was looking for a tax write off scheme there are many, many easier ways of doing it.

Why not find some generosity in your soul and say that they gave it a decent shot but, for a host of reasons, failed.

I would find it easier to show humility if Argyle hadn't left his employees up sh it creek....

I feel for those fans who have bought into the fun, bought the jerseys etc and attached themselves to the club and the game. They are now left without a club.

[CanadianRugger]

Latest from the media:

Four interested buyers in TWP.

Vickers, McDermott and Hunter are the ones negotiating.

All four buyers are only interested in Toronto Toronto Wolfpack if they remain in Super League.

https://www.timescolonist.com/four-potential-buyers-checking-out-the-cash-strapped-toronto-wolfpack-1.24182957

I know there are a few here who don't want that but the players getting paid relies on it so won't that make the league look good.  Also SBW said in an interview that he still has a contract witg TWP next season.

 

 

[Robin Evans]

3 minutes ago, CanadianRugger said:

Latest from the media:

Four interested buyers in TWP.

Vickers, McDermott and Hunter are the ones negotiating.

All four buyers are only interested in Toronto Toronto Wolfpack if they remain in Super League.

https://www.timescolonist.com/four-potential-buyers-checking-out-the-cash-strapped-toronto-wolfpack-1.24182957

I know there are a few here who don't want that but the players getting paid relies on it so won't that make the league look good.  Also SBW said in an interview that he still has a contract witg TWP next season.

 

 

Not making the league look good is a minor consideration. We've had players not getting paid before. It happens.

A utilitarian view is needed here. If the greater good is twp not in sl then thats what it has to be.

Similarly, if its assessed the greater good is to incl twp, again.. fair dos.

[Lowdesert]

17 minutes ago, CanadianRugger said:

Latest from the media:

Four interested buyers in TWP.

Vickers, McDermott and Hunter are the ones negotiating.

All four buyers are only interested in Toronto Toronto Wolfpack if they remain in Super League.

https://www.timescolonist.com/four-potential-buyers-checking-out-the-cash-strapped-toronto-wolfpack-1.24182957

I know there are a few here who don't want that but the players getting paid relies on it so won't that make the league look good.  Also SBW said in an interview that he still has a contract witg TWP next season.

 

 

Probably right, but SBW would say that, he’s in for a shed load of money.  He will go where the money is no matter what.  IMO he was one big mistake.

 

 

[Dave T]

51 minutes ago, CanadianRugger said:

Latest from the media:

Four interested buyers in TWP.

Vickers, McDermott and Hunter are the ones negotiating.

All four buyers are only interested in Toronto Toronto Wolfpack if they remain in Super League.

https://www.timescolonist.com/four-potential-buyers-checking-out-the-cash-strapped-toronto-wolfpack-1.24182957

I know there are a few here who don't want that but the players getting paid relies on it so won't that make the league look good.  Also SBW said in an interview that he still has a contract witg TWP next season.

 

 

Nobody will hold it against SL if players don't get paid. They will rightly hold it against TWP, their employer. 

[Smudger06]

What we know for certain. This Club playing Home Games in Toronto needs any ownership group to cover a deficit of £5m per season out out of their own pocket, how long can any of these prospective buyers afford to do that???  These interested Parties are also only interested in TWP as part of SL !!! What happens if they get relegated? Or is it special rules for TWP??? Bend over backwards, Regardless, this enterprise is short lived without a TV Deal to cover a major part of that deficit. 

Id imagine The 2 payrolls missed is only a part of the debts they have run up. So that's an increase in the deficit to cover paying those off....

Cut corners, again stuff like proper visas, another increase in that annual deficit......

[Oldbear]

7 hours ago, meast said:

But yet it should and probably COULD have been done right with a proper action plan for development rather than being "fastracked" into SL, yes, they won promotion on the field as it should be, but they were always going to be in SL within 3/4 years with their model.

As I've said, Toronto could still be a part of the pyramid, but they, and other "expansion/franchise" clubs must be made to have some focus on development, as Wilkin alluded to on the super league show this week, they've thrown plenty of money at the playing side of things but no so much on the office staff to develop and run the club.

Great post, it encompasses so much that was wrong with TWP, any new club should be required to employ a development officer, and should also have sufficient back office staff to ensure that suppliers get paid, players are properly looked after and that administrative hiccups such as what happened with visas do not happen. As I said in a previous post, the wages of Josh McCrone and Darcy Lussick would have been better spent on off field activities and the team would have still been in line for promotion within the original 5 year plan.