The General 'Toronto Wolfpack' Discussion Thread

[The Rocket]

23 minutes ago, Adelaide Tiger said:

I never suggested you did.

But what I do suggest is that you re-read my initial post as it was aimed specifically at those who said we should ignore/ban any expansion until we have ‘our house in order’ or ‘make sure that the heartlands are strong’.

Nobody has yet responded to explain what they mean or what needs to achieved before they accept that the heartlands are in a strong enough position to then look further afield to grow the game.

Cone on you know you who you are ....

125 years and still talking about " making sure the heartlands are strong ",  I seriously hope that the people who run your game have more vision than a lot of the people on this forum. Going nowhere fast is an expression that springs to mind.

[Dave T]

3 hours ago, Adelaide Tiger said:

I never suggested you did.

But what I do suggest is that you re-read my initial post as it was aimed specifically at those who said we should ignore/ban any expansion until we have ‘our house in order’ or ‘make sure that the heartlands are strong’.

Nobody has yet responded to explain what they mean or what needs to achieved before they accept that the heartlands are in a strong enough position to then look further afield to grow the game.

Cone on you know you who you are ....

Could I ask you to provide a quote to somebody here saying that please? 

It is an important point, as it will then allow those specifically who say that to answer. If it hasn't been said, then it is a dishonest point to make. 

[The Rocket]

1 hour ago, Dave T said:

Could I ask you to provide a quote to somebody here saying that please? 

It is an important point, as it will then allow those specifically who say that to answer. If it hasn't been said, then it is a dishonest point to make. 

Dave, In support of Adelaide I have to admit that I have heard the statement myself since I have been on this forum. I can not pin point where or by whom though. If I dare suggest though,  certainly the sentiment is much more commonly expressed.

[Tommygilf]

1 hour ago, Dave T said:

Could I ask you to provide a quote to somebody here saying that please? 

It is an important point, as it will then allow those specifically who say that to answer. If it hasn't been said, then it is a dishonest point to make. 

I could point to Harry saying "look after yourself first" (where I debated with him the reductive nature of that statement) and literally the most recent post by Snowy in the "Clubs survival is not guaranteed saying "consolidate is key" and "expansion should be the last thing on the agenda".

[Dave T]

18 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

I could point to Harry saying "look after yourself first" (where I debated with him the reductive nature of that statement) and literally the most recent post by Snowy in the "Clubs survival is not guaranteed saying "consolidate is key" and "expansion should be the last thing on the agenda".

I don't see any ambiguity in Snowy's post, so not sure what AT needs clarifying though. 

Harry's post may be more grey, but not really what AT is claiming. 

Focusing on heartlands and not bothering with expansion is a perfectly valid view. Not one I share, but it wont just lead to the death of the game like many say. There is still plenty of growth to be had in existing areas. There may be more growth by spreading our wings but that is also far more costly and higher risk. I know many intelligent business people who think expansion into the likes of Canada is crazy. 

Edit to add. Look at the RLWC next year. Let's be honest, it's a heartland World Cup. It is less ambitious geographically than 2013, but it looks like it may be the most successful world Cup ever. 

[Harry Stottle]

20 hours ago, Adelaide Tiger said:

Just catching up on this topic.

Harry, this is not just aimed at you but to others that have similar views.

There are those of us who believe supporting the heartlands and pursuing expansion are not mutually exclusive.  But there are others who believe that the game must get the ‘heartlands’ or ‘house’ in order before expansion should be pursued.

Therefore can someone please outline:

1. What does getting your house in order actually mean. 

2. What are the KPI’s that would indicate the ‘house is in order’

3. How many years do you think it would take to achieve getting the ‘house in order’ before you would consider overseas expansion.

Hi A.T. thanks for your response, initially that statement you qoute that I made was at the time in a discussion re how the community and subsequently the transition of those good enough will move on and up, so :-

1. "What does getting your house in order actually mean".

Anyone who has been involved with the amatuer game for any number of years will have witnessed that it is steadily on the decline in both participants, administrators and even those who venture out to stand on the touchlines to watch it. Many times on these pages I have brought up concerns that if there is not a concerted effort to address this situation the whole game over here will eventually suffer. The reaction to those comments or lack of from posters on this site actually speaks volumes that they are either unconcerned or have not got a clue that it is in decline, in fact and this may be terribly unfair they may not have ever been or even know where their local community club is. The Governing body and Professional clubs should be giving this area a good dose of looking at to address this situation, it is not all about every club having an academy, it is utilising each and every area to maximise it's potential and by doing so the sport will be in a much healthier place.

2. 'What are the KPI’s that would indicate the ‘house is in order’ 

It is in my opinion basically a follow on from the answer to Q 1. Last year the powers that be deemed that each club in the top flight should have a reserve or as was known an 'A' team but the administration reversed the instruction and through pressure from the club's abandoned it before it really got started, that is a very strong indication that our 'house is very much out of order' even our most successful club since 1995 and dare I say richest, see's it more economical to send player's to a club in the lower tiers than to be in a thriving, competitive division where they can keep on more 'hopefuls' other than jettisoning them because they have reached their age limit, it is also a recuperation aid to returning injured player's and what better to have player's learning, training and playing together in the coaches ethos at the club. The KPI's are therefore looking us right in the face organise, develop and promote our own, there is a very good reason that we employ 90+ overseas player's - enough for 6 teams - in our League system it is because we are just not producing enough of our own, if we can reverse this at grass roots it will firstly benefit those at the top which in turn will improve for all beneath it.

3. "How many years do you think it would take to achieve getting the ‘house in order’ before you would consider overseas expansion".

Firstly, I am not against overseas expansion, but which is the relevant and best way to go about this, "Bottom Up" or "Top Down" I actually think it should be a combination of both, If there is no infrastructure it will always be a case of how I described Toronto 3 years or so ago that they are only interested in "bringing the circus to town" there is no evidence whatsoever that statement can be refuted, and for what it is worth I doubt very much that will change with Ottawa and even NY if it ever comes off never mind all the other 'pipedream' entities some on here insist we need, it will always be a reliance on others to provide players for that market, and as alluded to above we have not got enough for our our own home teams requirements. Again people say if there are teams in exotic places more will have the desire to take up the game, yes they possibly could but we need to "get our house in order" to provide that pathway. France are by far much better equipped to be the expansion area the infrastructure is already in place, but there is 10× the apathy in France than there is in the UK towards the game, desire and impetus has to come from the FFR to get more involved has to start at the grassroots in France and provide a reason for Kids to take up the sport and have the facilities and venues to stay with it, there are some good French players, some very good French players and I don't doubt there are many more but it seems they are using a toothpick to dig for gold. How many years then for an expansion programme, yes we should assist where and when possible but they have to help themselves also, and the stronger we are the more assistance (and player's) we can give them.

Sorry for the long post, but that statement "getting our house in order" was made in context with the discussion at the time, All my own views of course.

PS I am just reading the excellent book the 'Invincibles' published last year re the  Australian '82 tourists, the first paragraph is devoted to years earlier in the mid to late 60's and specifically the '70 Lions tour, and how there was a concerted effort in Australia to improove playing numbers and to rewrite the coaching manuals, all our administrators and coaches should take note, it was said the GB coach on the '70's tour Johnny Whiteley went along to observe an U'12's coaching session and came away full of trepidation for the GB teams 10 years hence and ongoing, surely he and the Tour Manager Mr Jack Harding must have brought that back in their 'tour report', but to me that just about sums up the attitude if our administration, we won that tour - last one - so everything must be good, so little foresight, not so much different than today in how the grassroots is being allowed to wither away.

[Harry Stottle]

1 hour ago, Dave T said:

Could I ask you to provide a quote to somebody here saying that please? 

It is an important point, as it will then allow those specifically who say that to answer. If it hasn't been said, then it is a dishonest point to make. 

I said it David.

[Adelaide Tiger]

2 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I don't see any ambiguity in Snowy's post, so not sure what AT needs clarifying though. 

Harry's post may be more grey, but not really what AT is claiming. 

Focusing on heartlands and not bothering with expansion is a perfectly valid view. Not one I share, but it wont just lead to the death of the game like many say. There is still plenty of growth to be had in existing areas. There may be more growth by spreading our wings but that is also far more costly and higher risk. I know many intelligent business people who think expansion into the likes of Canada is crazy. 

Dave T,

I was responding to Harry’s quote ‘get your own house in order’.

Do you want me to sift through 4 years of comments about Toronto to pull out the posts that state that the game should concentrate on the heartlands?
 

I will respond fuller late tonight just going out to celebrates daughters birthday.

[GUBRATS]

8 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Hi A.T. thanks for your response, initially that statement you qoute that I made was at the time in a discussion re how the community and subsequently the transition of those good enough will move on and up, so :-

1. "What does getting your house in order actually mean".

Anyone who has been involved with the amatuer game for any number of years will have witnessed that it is steadily on the decline in both participants, administrators and even those who venture out to stand on the touchlines to watch it. Many times on these pages I have brought up concerns that if there is not a concerted effort to address this situation the whole game over here will eventually suffer. The reaction to those comments or lack of from posters on this site actually speaks volumes that they are either unconcerned or have not got a clue that it is in decline, in fact and this may be terribly unfair they may not have ever been or even know where their local community club is. The Governing body and Professional clubs should be giving this area a good dose of looking at to address this situation, it is not all about every club having an academy, it is utilising each and every area to maximise it's potential and by doing so the sport will be in a much healthier place.

2. 'What are the KPI’s that would indicate the ‘house is in order’ 

It is in my opinion basically a follow on from the answer to Q 1. Last year the powers that be deemed that each club in the top flight should have a reserve or as was known an 'A' team but the administration reversed the instruction and through pressure from the club's abandoned it before it really got started, that is a very strong indication that our 'house is very much out of order' even our most successful club since 1995 and dare I say richest, see's it more economical to send player's to a club in the lower tiers than to be in a thriving, competitive division where they can keep on more 'hopefuls' other than jettisoning them because they have reached their age limit, it is also a recuperation aid to returning injured player's and what better to have player's learning, training and playing together in the coaches ethos at the club. The KPI's are therefore looking us right in the face organise, develop and promote our own, there is a very good reason that we employ 90+ overseas player's - enough for 6 teams - in our League system it is because we are just not producing enough of our own, if we can reverse this at grass roots it will firstly benefit those at the top which in turn will improve for all beneath it.

3. "How many years do you think it would take to achieve getting the ‘house in order’ before you would consider overseas expansion".

Firstly, I am not against overseas expansion, but which is the relevant and best way to go about this, "Bottom Up" or "Top Down" I actually think it should be a combination of both, If there is no infrastructure it will always be a case of how I described Toronto 3 years or so ago that they are only interested in "bringing the circus to town" there is no evidence whatsoever that statement can be refuted, and for what it is worth I doubt very much that will change with Ottawa and even NY if it ever comes off never mind all the other 'pipedream' entities some on here insist we need, it will always be a reliance on others to provide players for that market, and as alluded to above we have not got enough for our our own home teams requirements. Again people say if there are teams in exotic places more will have the desire to take up the game, yes they possibly could but we need to "get our house in order" to provide that pathway. France are by far much better equipped to be the expansion area the infrastructure is already in place, but there is 10× the apathy in France than there is in the UK towards the game, desire and impetus has to come from the FFR to get more involved has to start at the grassroots in France and provide a reason for Kids to take up the sport and have the facilities and venues to stay with it, there are some good French players, some very good French players and I don't doubt there are many more but it seems they are using a toothpick to dig for gold. How many years then for an expansion programme, yes we should assist where and when possible but they have to help themselves also, and the stronger we are the more assistance (and player's) we can give them.

Sorry for the long post, but that statement "getting our house in order" was made in context with the discussion at the time, All my own views of course.

PS I am just reading the excellent book the 'Invincibles' published last year re the  Australian '82 tourists, the first paragraph is devoted to years earlier in the mid to late 60's and specifically the '70 Lions tour, and how there was a concerted effort in Australia to improove playing numbers and to rewrite the coaching manuals, all our administrators and coaches should take note, it was said the GB coach on the '70's tour Johnny Whiteley went along to observe an U'12's coaching session and came away full of trepidation for the GB teams 10 years hence and ongoing, surely he and the Tour Manager Mr Jack Harding must have brought that back in their 'tour report', but to me that just about sums up the attitude if our administration, we won that tour - last one - so everything must be good, so little foresight, not so much different than today in how the grassroots is being allowed to wither away.

Completely agree Harry , which is why in my response to to the question I highlighted the criteria I believe should be put in place , as you put it isn't just about more academies , which is all we ever see from those less knowing , it is simply a numbers game , we need more kids playing the game , and clubs should be forced to work with the community clubs and schools and colleges to increase these numbers 

[Robin Evans]

Great Post H.

[Tommygilf]

30 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I don't see any ambiguity in Snowy's post, so not sure what AT needs clarifying though. 

Harry's post may be more grey, but not really what AT is claiming. 

Focusing on heartlands and not bothering with expansion is a perfectly valid view. Not one I share, but it wont just lead to the death of the game like many say. There is still plenty of growth to be had in existing areas. There may be more growth by spreading our wings but that is also far more costly and higher risk. I know many intelligent business people who think expansion into the likes of Canada is crazy. 

Edit to add. Look at the RLWC next year. Let's be honest, it's a heartland World Cup. It is less ambitious geographically than 2013, but it looks like it may be the most successful world Cup ever. 

I think you're being more than a tad generous there Dave. I don't want to say it sounds naïve but its coming across a little that way. 

I can see the view that Canadian expansion is crazy, totally. If you'd asked me 5 years ago I doubt it would have been in my top 20 places I would aim for professional RL to be played. The problem I have with the "focus on the heartlands" is that it is a flawed mentality that sees the RL towns and cities as a static homogenous blob separated from everything else. The heartlands is a nice mental comfort blanket of a few towns and urban areas. The reason the junior game in the heartlands is declining is partly the same reason most sports are seeing a decrease in boys participation and is not solvable on a heartlands only policy. We don't have the money or the interest and both of those are connected to the fact we are focussed on the heartlands that aren't for the most part leaders in their own geographical areas. The reason we can't expand into Bolton or Burnley is the same reason we can't get another club in Castleford or Hull. Its the same reason why London find it so difficult. It's why Toronto's popularity in Canada was such a shock.

Focus on the heartlands means we offer a club game that you'll only be interested in long term if you dislike the team over't hill, no international game to speak of (even when we do all the games are in the "heartlands" anyway where we get bad to average crowds except in Leeds and decide it was a bit pointless and don't do it again).

There's also the big shock coming for some second division fans who are proponents of this reductive idea will get when the SL bosses and the RFL decide that in their reductive logic that Super League covers all the heartlands already, so why harm those teams "lets look after our own". 

On the World cup I think its an interesting point. Clearly the Northern Powerhouse funding has seen a lot of games played in the the North. However, the focus on less "heartlandy" places is notable, even within that "Northern Powerhouse" bracket. Doncaster, York, Middlesbrough, Newcastle, Sheffield, Liverpool, Bolton, Preston and London feature quite prominently across the tournament as hosts and most people would argue they aren't "heartlands" in the way that Wigan or Wakefield are.

[Davo5]

38 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Completely agree Harry , which is why in my response to to the question I highlighted the criteria I believe should be put in place , as you put it isn't just about more academies , which is all we ever see from those less knowing , it is simply a numbers game , we need more kids playing the game , and clubs should be forced to work with the community clubs and schools and colleges to increase these numbers 

But the failure of pro clubs to work with community clubs has nothing to do with foreign expansion,it's been happening for years.

[Dave T]

1 hour ago, Adelaide Tiger said:

Dave T,

I was responding to Harry’s quote ‘get your own house in order’.

Do you want me to sift through 4 years of comments about Toronto to pull out the posts that state that the game should concentrate on the heartlands?
 

I will respond fuller late tonight just going out to celebrates daughters birthday.

But my point is that if somebody states to focus on the heartland, they don't need to justify at what point that we should then focus on Canada. Some are perfectly happy that we never do. Of course anybody can play RL if they want to. But it isn;t a natural fit for UK RL to try and expand into Canada. Or France for that matter. 

It is perfectly ok for a fan in Leigh to believe that the RFL should focus on RL in this country. Like I say, it's not my view, but its a perfectly valid one.

Enjoy your celebrations pal!

[Dave T]

1 hour ago, The Rocket said:

Dave, In support of Adelaide I have to admit that I have heard the statement myself since I have been on this forum. I can not pin point where or by whom though. If I dare suggest though,  certainly the sentiment is much more commonly expressed.

My challenge around the point was that too often this point is made in a general way, and it is used to bash the existing fan base. As an existing fan I have some issues with that. I am getting fed up of being portrayed as a luddite simply because I have watched RL for 35 years. I'm not suggesting that was Adelaide Tiger's aim, they post some good stuff so I'm sure it wasn't, but by generalising that is what happens. Making the challenge specific leads to good debate, and I see Harry has now provided his lengthy response.

But onto actual expansion, a skint league trying to expand into North America is not a good idea on paper. It has all sorts of challenges and whilst it is against the backdrop of Covid, we are finding ourselves in the same place yet again. And the anger is often aimed at fans of Leigh. 

But let's look at sport in England, the big sports don't really use their comps for expansion. It isn't part of the psyche, we don't really have closed shops and we don't generally admit new teams into our top leagues, certainly not from North America. The average sports fan over here watching Football, Rugby Union and Cricket hasn't been overly exposed to expansion. There is a lot of crossover with fans of these sports, and it shouldn't be a surprise that some people don't really buy into some of the expansion dreams we hear of on here. 

North American expansion is a long way from being the no-brainer that it is often portrayed as. In my view it is exciting and ambitious, but I'm glad I'm not having to fund it. 

[GUBRATS]

46 minutes ago, Davo5 said:

But the failure of pro clubs to work with community clubs has nothing to do with foreign expansion,it's been happening for years.

He asked a question , an answer has been provided 

[Scubby]

15 hours ago, John Drake said:

Toronto face crucial talks with Elstone

The prospective new ownership group of Toronto Wolfpack will speak with Super League’s Robert Elstone on Tuesday as takeover talks continue.
The Wolfpack has identified a preferred consortium to take the club forward and have started the process of formalising the move with the RFL and Super League.

https://www.totalrl.com/forums/index.php?/topic/354677-toronto-face-crucial-talks-with-elstone/

 

One of the stipulations from SL is that they have to prove they can get Gary Wheeler to complete a match without getting injured. Tough terms.

[Tommygilf]

1 hour ago, Davo5 said:

But the failure of pro clubs to work with community clubs has nothing to do with foreign expansion,it's been happening for years.

Don't let that obvious fact get in the way of "focus on the heartlands" or "get our own house in order"...

[Sir Kevin Sinfield]

If Super League don’t agree to give the new Toronto ownership a share of the tv funding they are cutting their noses off to spite their face. 
 

Leigh or Featherstone who replace Toronto will take the tv funding anyway so it may as well go to Toronto as the new sky tv deal will certainly be worth less without them.

[GUBRATS]

1 hour ago, Davo5 said:

But the failure of pro clubs to work with community clubs has nothing to do with foreign expansion,it's been happening for years.

Indeed , it is something I've been involved with , although for me it is engagement with schools that is probably more important , again something I have been involved with in the past 

[GUBRATS]

8 minutes ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

If Super League don’t agree to give the new Toronto ownership a share of the tv funding they are cutting their noses off to spite their face. 
 

Leigh or Featherstone who replace Toronto will take the tv funding anyway so it may as well go to Toronto as the new sky tv deal will certainly be worth less without them.

I don't really follow your last point , I'd suggest SKY s main issue is a full compliment of 12 

[Dave T]

1 hour ago, Davo5 said:

But the failure of pro clubs to work with community clubs has nothing to do with foreign expansion,it's been happening for years.

Why is it portrayed as a failure? We do a lot of work in the community and develop a hell of a lot of top athletes. Compared to many other sports we develop a lot of players ourselves, mainly because we don't have a load of other countries providing players like Cricket, Football and RU do. Of course we can always do more, and better, but the amount of top class sports stars from these little Northern towns and cities should be commended. 

[GUBRATS]

2 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Why is it portrayed as a failure? We do a lot of work in the community and develop a hell of a lot of top athletes. Compared to many other sports we develop a lot of players ourselves, mainly because we don't have a load of other countries providing players like Cricket, Football and RU do. Of course we can always do more, and better, but the amount of top class sports stars from these little Northern towns and cities should be commended. 

Simply because everything is portrayed as a failure , simply because we haven't dominated world sport , when in fact we've done well to still be playing the game after 125 years , which probably gives an insight to what the sport means to these small northern towns , and why some just don't understand why many would walk away rather than follow a bigger local rival 

[Tommygilf]

9 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Why is it portrayed as a failure? We do a lot of work in the community and develop a hell of a lot of top athletes. Compared to many other sports we develop a lot of players ourselves, mainly because we don't have a load of other countries providing players like Cricket, Football and RU do. Of course we can always do more, and better, but the amount of top class sports stars from these little Northern towns and cities should be commended. 

So why this focus on the heartlands mantra from some then? Clearly it already is focussed on?

[Davo5]

4 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Why is it portrayed as a failure? We do a lot of work in the community and develop a hell of a lot of top athletes. Compared to many other sports we develop a lot of players ourselves, mainly because we don't have a load of other countries providing players like Cricket, Football and RU do. Of course we can always do more, and better, but the amount of top class sports stars from these little Northern towns and cities should be commended. 

Who are the WE,if it's the handful of Superleague clubs who do contribute to community clubs efforts that's fair,but the bigger picture is that the majority of pro clubs make little or no effort to help grassroots RL,hence the huge fall in participation numbers.

[Harry Stottle]

53 minutes ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

If Super League don’t agree to give the new Toronto ownership a share of the tv funding they are cutting their noses off to spite their face. 
 

Leigh or Featherstone who replace Toronto will take the tv funding anyway so it may as well go to Toronto as the new sky tv deal will certainly be worth less without them.

And how do you know that? Would it be monetary terms or for those who see Toronto as some kind of saviour's of Rugby League.