The General 'Toronto Wolfpack' Discussion Thread

[Oldbear]

1 hour ago, Man of Kent said:

Interesting question. I believe Argyle's realisation that Vickers, Noble et al built an overpaid, dud roster - and that signing Sonny Bill Williams wasn't some sort of passport to the play-offs - might well have been a contribution to his dumping manoeuvre. 

My theory, and it’s only a theory, no evidence to back any of this up, is that Argyle realized that the way to get a Canadian TV deal that allows the club to wash its face is to have TWP as Canada’s team, marketed in the same way that Rogers does the Blue Jays and TSN does the Raptors. For that you need a competitive squad with at least one big name and although Noble and Vickers gave him SBW as the big name the squad was out of its depth in SL and as you correctly say, was seriously overpaid in relation to their talent. All this meant a struggling squad and guess what, it doesn’t make good TV if you are trying to find a new audience. Given that there was no way this squad could attract the viewers necessary to cut a decent deal he was looking for an exit strategy and Covid helped him find one. Had they indeed started say 4-2 then I think he would have found a way to keep things running and I can’t help feeling that the blow outs suffered against Saints and especially Leeds were the turning point, especially as he could hardly ask McDermott to ring the changes, given the small squad size.

[Les Tonks Sidestep]

1 hour ago, Man of Kent said:

Interesting question. I believe Argyle's realisation that Vickers, Noble et al built an overpaid, dud roster - and that signing Sonny Bill Williams wasn't some sort of passport to the play-offs - might well have been a contribution to his dumping manoeuvre. 

Considering Argyle is supposedly steeped in League, you'd have thought he'd have figured all that out long ago.....

[Oldbear]

18 hours ago, SL17 said:

Ultimately the decision is with SL. -6 will probably do the trick. How Toronto then build again regardless of punishment is something to be seen.

The easier route surely must be Championship and build again.

Another 5 year plan must be in place with the alleged new ownership.

Assuming they are back in SL next year, on as you say -6 to start.

1. Where are the players going to come from? A lot of agents will surely be wary of doing a deal with TWP, so the answer may be a bunch of short term signings which hardly promotes stability and may again lead to overpayment.

2. Starting with a points penalty will pretty much make them favourites for relegation, that’s not going to be a great selling point when looking for a TV deal.

I agree that any rebuild is best done in the Championship where they would at least get the chance to put down some real foundations this time. Of course there would be some SL teams who would only be too delighted to have a weak and penalized TWP back in SL, if only because it may protect them from relegation.

[Oldbear]

9 minutes ago, Les Tonks Sidestep said:

Considering Argyle is supposedly steeped in League, you'd have thought he'd have figured all that out long ago.....

You really think so? My guess is like a lot of rich people, he thinks that being rich makes him an expert in areas where he really is not qualified to give an opinion. All I will say is that Noble and Vickers must interview really well, after all this is not the first time they have presided over a difficult situation, and sadly I’m sure they will no doubt end up somewhere else.

[clogdance]

Blake Wallace has signed for us Leythers....good man ! 

[Les Tonks Sidestep]

1 hour ago, Oldbear said:

You really think so? My guess is like a lot of rich people, he thinks that being rich makes him an expert in areas where he really is not qualified to give an opinion. All I will say is that Noble and Vickers must interview really well, after all this is not the first time they have presided over a difficult situation, and sadly I’m sure they will no doubt end up somewhere else.

So he thinks he's an expert and then brings in 'experts' to advise? 

[Man of Kent]

1 hour ago, Les Tonks Sidestep said:

Considering Argyle is supposedly steeped in League, you'd have thought he'd have figured all that out long ago.....

Think’ll you find Argyle was steeped in t’other code, lad.

[ghost crayfish]

What's the point of starting them in Super League next year on -6? That would most likely just delay relegation for a year and in the long term, set them back several more years. The competition leadership needs to be much stronger than that. Either make the call that what they've done is unacceptable and they have to start in the championship, or make the call that you want them in superleague and give them a chance - starting on 0 at bare minimum, but things like central funding and salary cap dispensation too. Docking 6 points in superleague to try and keep everyone happy is such a limp compromise and not a solution at all.

[CanadianRugger]

6 hours ago, Oldbear said:

You really think so? My guess is like a lot of rich people, he thinks that being rich makes him an expert in areas where he really is not qualified to give an opinion. All I will say is that Noble and Vickers must interview really well, after all this is not the first time they have presided over a difficult situation, and sadly I’m sure they will no doubt end up somewhere else.

I've followed your posts and tbh they are often full of speculation and IMO have always been dismissive of TWP.

I've noted that you also live in BC, do you work for RC by chance?  Interested in seeing TWP fail?

I also live in Victoria, five minutes from Westhills Stadium and RC HQ.  Maybe you would like to meet in person for a pint and I can really get to know your views?

As for Argyle, rather than some of the random conspiracy theories on here, how about we take the most likely scenario.... COVID nuked his assets and he lacks liquid cash atm to keep the team afloat. 

Now many will say, "but he is a billionaire!?" Well most rich people don't have hundred of millions of dollars in liquid cash laying around.  Even Jeff Bezos, who is the richest man on the planet, only has around $2 billion in liquid cash even though his Networth is $120 billion.  

[Ackroman]

19 hours ago, Dave T said:

Nobody has ever done what TWP have done in SL. So what has Leeds v Catalans to do with clubs being sanctioned equally? 

That's splitting hairs. Plenty have pulled out, Crusaders in a similar if not as timely fashion.

[ATLANTISMAN]

4 hours ago, CanadianRugger said:

I've followed your posts and tbh they are often full of speculation and IMO have always been dismissive of TWP.

I've noted that you also live in BC, do you work for RC by chance?  Interested in seeing TWP fail?

I also live in Victoria, five minutes from Westhills Stadium and RC HQ.  Maybe you would like to meet in person for a pint and I can really get to know your views?

As for Argyle, rather than some of the random conspiracy theories on here, how about we take the most likely scenario.... COVID nuked his assets and he lacks liquid cash atm to keep the team afloat. 

Now many will say, "but he is a billionaire!?" Well most rich people don't have hundred of millions of dollars in liquid cash laying around.  Even Jeff Bezos, who is the richest man on the planet, only has around $2 billion in liquid cash even though his Networth is $120 billion.  

I think you are SPOT ON

Expect a reshuffle of ownership as a PR job (In reality will still be DA baby:)

 

Paul

[LeeF]

Would a points deduction result in relegation? Who says that there definitely will be relegation next year? New TV may be the reason given/ catalyst for a restructure

[gingerjon]

Have the players been paid what they're owed yet?

[Harry Stottle]

On 05/09/2020 at 08:27, frank said:

If it hadn't have been for Covic and unable able to play games in Canada (with money coming in)Argyle may have kept going.You guys are too hard on them,but then Leigh have eyes on SL.They have been there twice and could not hack it and the same will happen again should they make it.

All the pointers of the first 6 games, an inadequate number in the squad, and ageing player's probably say's to any rational thinkers that Toronto would not have 'hacked' it in SL this season.

Just saying.

[Harry Stottle]

16 hours ago, Bedfordshire Bronco said:

Putting them in the Championship seems the most sensible option. Their crowds and enthusiasm was good there. The argument that Canadian crowds only cares about the echelon of a sport's leagues didn't affect them last year. They could build a decent sustainable model with good crowds for a bit. Develop local rivalries and start an Academy. 

I also believe it has to be last out last back in. That would mean giving Broncos early notice of their re-entry into SL as soon as possible so we can hit the transfer market

Two things Double 'B', if Toronto are again placed in the Championship they will have to Stand the Travel and Subsistance costs of the visiting teams, (as Ottawa will do in L1) it should not be expected of clubs who can ill afford these bills to pay themselves.

Secondly, I think you mean 'last out, first back in' No, No and Thrice No, the community ground they play on simply does not send out the right messages to the viewing public especially when it is so sparsly attended, and if it did happen will Mr Hughes be willing to 'Hit the Transfer Market again'? Please tell me honestly, do you consider that the public local to Trailfinders never mind the often qouted potential of the London masses will get behind him if he invests further large sums? The man has been more than generous over the years he should realise by now that no natter how much he throws at the project Professional Rugby League is neither appreciated nor wanted by the people of London.

If a replacement for Toronto is required to take SL back to 12  there is going to be a hell of a lot of head scratching to come up with a selection process, non of the candidates tick every box, whether that be last season, affordability, fan numbers, ground condition, depositing a bond etc, etc.

[Dave T]

2 hours ago, Ackroman said:

That's splitting hairs. Plenty have pulled out, Crusaders in a similar if not as timely fashion.

Nobody has pulled out in a similar fashion at all. 

This has never been done, no matter how you try and spin a postponed game as the same as giving up, withdrawing mid-season and not paying players. 

[Dave T]

1 hour ago, gingerjon said:

Have the players been paid what they're owed yet?

Meh, we don't need to get hung up on the minor detail. Things like this are not important. One must not ask awkward questions. 

[Davo5]

6 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Nobody has pulled out in a similar fashion at all. 

This has never been done, no matter how you try and spin a postponed game as the same as giving up, withdrawing mid-season and not paying players. 

Has any club faced a season with no home games,so zero income and zero central funding,I agree the Leeds comparison is way off the mark.

[Davo5]

53 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

All the pointers of the first 6 games, an inadequate number in the squad, and ageing player's probably say's to any rational thinkers that Toronto would not have 'hacked' it in SL this season.

Just saying.

All 6 games were played away and to say they wouldn't have been able to hack it based on just 6 games isn't really rational thinking given that they would only have had to finish 2nd from bottom,Wakefield are still only on 4 points and are in free fall.

[Hela Wigmen]

8 minutes ago, Davo5 said:

Has any club faced a season with no home games,so zero income and zero central funding,I agree the Leeds comparison is way off the mark.

Most Super League clubs had 3/4 this season before the lockdown and won’t have any more this year and the central funding argument has more holes than Toronto’s defence, because they weren’t moaning about it when signing Sonny Bill. 

[bobbruce]

6 minutes ago, Hela Wigmen said:

Most Super League clubs had 3/4 this season before the lockdown and won’t have any more this year and the central funding argument has more holes than Toronto’s defence, because they weren’t moaning about it when signing Sonny Bill. 

SL clubs were able to furlough players and staff for the bulk of the year an option not open to Toronto. 

[Hela Wigmen]

3 minutes ago, bobbruce said:

SL clubs were able to furlough players and staff for the bulk of the year an option not open to Toronto. 

There was a Canada Emergency Wage Subsidy. 

It was a get out for Argyle all this and nothing more. 

[gingerjon]

29 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Meh, we don't need to get hung up on the minor detail. Things like this are not important. One must not ask awkward questions. 

Genuinely, do we know if they have been?

[bobbruce]

5 minutes ago, Hela Wigmen said:

There was a Canada Emergency Wage Subsidy. 

It was a get out for Argyle all this and nothing more. 

There maybe but we don’t know if any of the players qualified for it. Were they employed here or there. Were they employed at all or just self employed contractors. If this was a available why were none of the players on it. 

I’m not disputing this was a get out of jail card for Argyle just that we can’t say the rest of SL clubs survived so Toronto should’ve. 

[Dave T]

1 hour ago, Davo5 said:

Has any club faced a season with no home games,so zero income and zero central funding,I agree the Leeds comparison is way off the mark.

I'm not sure of the point, we have discussed this point, it is perfectly understandable that TWP pulled out. I even offered up a pretty perfect comparison from an international Rugby comp. 

I think TWP should have pulled out earlier tbh on more positive terms. Instead they stopped paying players, tried to weasel their way to an exit through visas (the RFL called their bluff by resolving that), and then they pulled out after the restart had been announced. 

Hunter acknowledges the harm they did to SL. 

 

But the point I was debating was the comparisons. There are none, as you say, this is unprecedented. Calm rational heads are needed, but that isn't people trying to find a minor issue as direct comparison.