The General 'Toronto Wolfpack' Discussion Thread

[Dave T]

55 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Genuinely, do we know if they have been?

I believe if the takeover is approved then TWP will pay players. This despite Argyle guaranteeing their wages. 

I find some of that challenging, as we have already seen, some fans are already trying to spin this as an RFL issue rather than their employer.

I would be banning Argyle from RL anid be making  any approval of an SL place conditional on him not being involved as any kind of silent partner behind the scenes. 

[CanadianRugger]

1 hour ago, gingerjon said:

Genuinely, do we know if they have been?

Of course they have not been.  The new owner isn't going to pay them until he gets conditions that are conducive to facilitating that happening.  Aka, guarantee that TWP remain in SL next year.

DA has already said he can't afford to front the club atm.

[gingerjon]

27 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I would be banning Argyle from RL 

Yup. At an absolute minimum. There may be others involved with this failure who also need to be excluded.

Paying players isn't a bonus thing you do when things are going well.

[Sir Kevin Sinfield]

37 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I'm not sure of the point, we have discussed this point, it is perfectly understandable that TWP pulled out. I even offered up a pretty perfect comparison from an international Rugby comp. 

I think TWP should have pulled out earlier tbh on more positive terms. Instead they stopped paying players, tried to weasel their way to an exit through visas (the RFL called their bluff by resolving that), and then they pulled out after the restart had been announced. 

Hunter acknowledges the harm they did to SL. 

 

But the point I was debating was the comparisons. There are none, as you say, this is unprecedented. Calm rational heads are needed, but that isn't people trying to find a minor issue as direct comparison. 

Toronto we’re holding to be given central funding, when this was rejected by the other clubs they pulled the plug on 2020.

[Dave T]

1 minute ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

Toronto we’re holding to be given central funding, when this was rejected by the other clubs they pulled the plug on 2020.

They knew last year they weren't getting central funding. 

[Robin Evans]

2 minutes ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

Toronto we’re holding to be given central funding, when this was rejected by the other clubs they pulled the plug on 2020.

Nonsense. They knew they weren't getting any central funding last year. They agreed to that. 

 

[Dave T]

15 minutes ago, CanadianRugger said:

Of course they have not been.  The new owner isn't going to pay them until he gets conditions that are conducive to facilitating that happening.  Aka, guarantee that TWP remain in SL next year.

DA has already said he can't afford to front the club atm.

DA said he was guaranteeing player wages until the end of the year. 

Which DA are we supposed to believe today? 

[gingerjon]

Just now, Dave T said:

DA said he was guaranteeing player wages until the end of the year. 

Which DA are we supposed to believe today? 

"Billionaire"

[Dave T]

1 minute ago, Robin Evans said:

Nonsense. They knew they weren't getting any central funding last year. They agreed to that. 

 

Trying to twist the narrative isn't a useful exercise, I'm not sure why people are doing it. Thankfully Hunter is being far more humble about all this. 

[Sir Kevin Sinfield]

37 minutes ago, Robin Evans said:

Nonsense. They knew they weren't getting any central funding last year. They agreed to that. 

 

They only agreed to it because without doing do they wouldn’t of been allowed into Super League. Last year Toronto we’re going to have home games with paying fans, once that was called off Toronto asked for a share of the sky money, when the other clubs said no they pulled the plug on 2020.

 

[Robin Evans]

1 minute ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

They only agreed to it because without doing do they wouldn’t of been allowed into Super League. Last year Toronto we’re going to have home games with paying fans, once that was called off Toronto asked for a share of the sky money, when the other clubs said no they pulled the plug on 2020.

 

So SL stuck to their side of the agreement.....

[TIWIT]

2 hours ago, Hela Wigmen said:

There was a Canada Emergency Wage Subsidy. 

It was a get out for Argyle all this and nothing more. 

Which was presumably used for the Canadian-based staffers. Players and coaches would not qualify.

[CanadianRugger]

1 hour ago, TIWIT said:

Which was presumably used for the Canadian-based staffers. Players and coaches would not qualify.

Players should have just applied, the Government couldn't track it if they wanted to

[Bedfordshire Bronco]

4 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

 

Secondly, I think you mean 'last out, first back in' No, No and Thrice No, the community ground they play on simply does not send out the right messages to the viewing public especially when it is so sparsly attended, and if it did happen will Mr Hughes be willing to 'Hit the Transfer Market again'? Please tell me honestly, do you consider that the public local to Trailfinders never mind the often qouted potential of the London masses will get behind him if he invests further large sums? The man has been more than generous over the years he should realise by now that no natter how much he throws at the project Professional Rugby League is neither appreciated nor wanted by the people of London.

Tradilfinders was well over 75% full most games last year... Only 3000 capacity 

If we'd have stayed up and no Covid we'd have been filling it this year. Diesnt have to be Hughes but we need a big investment 

SL needs a London team chap.. Ideally a successful one

[TIWIT]

1 hour ago, CanadianRugger said:

Players should have just applied, the Government couldn't track it if they wanted to

Maybe Argyle and his Toronto-based companies could have received some funding as well.

[Ackroman]

6 hours ago, Dave T said:

Nobody has pulled out in a similar fashion at all. 

This has never been done, no matter how you try and spin a postponed game as the same as giving up, withdrawing mid-season and not paying players. 

I'm not spinning anything? Get off your high horse FGS. The SL era has thrown up many inconsistencies in how clubs are treated. The many club failures, unequal investment, expectations being lower/higher on some clubs than others. Salary cap breaches, unequal points deductions, "mergers and aquisitions", academies, second teams, dual reg etc etc etc. As much as the pandemic has thrown up new issues, SL are proving to be as ill equiped to deal with them now as they ever were. 

This is relevant to TWP because SL has shown their inability to do due diligence (remember licensing? that was a farce).

Has a 25 year track record of under investment in expansion and then getting seriously cold feet if it means clubs get less dough to buy another second rate crock.

A 25 year track record of poor youth development and yet expect clubs like TWP to generate their own.

I've lost interest over the last 25 years due to the above but at least TWP brought some spark and glamour back into the game. However the fact is the foundations on which SL is built does not provide a sound footing for new clubs like TWP.

It's insane watching SL repeat the same mistakes but then expecting a different outcome.

I also believe raking over the ashes for clues as to why this happens is simply a diversionary tactic.

 

[Oldbear]

13 hours ago, CanadianRugger said:

I've followed your posts and tbh they are often full of speculation and IMO have always been dismissive of TWP.

I've noted that you also live in BC, do you work for RC by chance?  Interested in seeing TWP fail?

I also live in Victoria, five minutes from Westhills Stadium and RC HQ.  Maybe you would like to meet in person for a pint and I can really get to know your views?

As for Argyle, rather than some of the random conspiracy theories on here, how about we take the most likely scenario.... COVID nuked his assets and he lacks liquid cash atm to keep the team afloat. 

Now many will say, "but he is a billionaire!?" Well most rich people don't have hundred of millions of dollars in liquid cash laying around.  Even Jeff Bezos, who is the richest man on the planet, only has around $2 billion in liquid cash even though his Networth is $120 billion.  

Sorry buddy I’m a league guy through and through. My team when I lived in the UK was Gateshead Thunder, I’ve been through the ringer with the so called Hull merger, a variety of financial crises and now a period of stability and growth. 
There’s nothing I would have liked more than to see TWP succeed and for what it’s worth I’m not a fan of beating Mr Argyle with a big stick, at least not without knowing the full story. I believe he was badly advised by Mr Noble and Mr Vickers (as was Dr K at Salford), now it’s time for everyone to figure out how to sort things out. I’m also not a fan of TWP being allowed back in to SL with a points deduction, all that does is pretty much nail them on for relegation and provide a comfort zone for a couple of SL’s perennial strugglers.

There is no doubt that Covid was the straw which broke the camels back here but Mr Argyle must have been bitterly disappointed in how poorly prepared TWP were for SL and you could hardly blame him given the money he has spent if he was looking for an exit strategy, however not paying players is just wrong.

As for the beer then I would definitely be up for it sometime. I’m currently going through some serious health issues so now is not the time, but hopefully soon. Oh and RC can kiss my ass, my youngest son has been a victim of their arbitrary selection policies, they are no friends of mine.

[Dave T]

37 minutes ago, Ackroman said:

I'm not spinning anything? Get off your high horse FGS. The SL era has thrown up many inconsistencies in how clubs are treated. The many club failures, unequal investment, expectations being lower/higher on some clubs than others. Salary cap breaches, unequal points deductions, "mergers and aquisitions", academies, second teams, dual reg etc etc etc. As much as the pandemic has thrown up new issues, SL are proving to be as ill equiped to deal with them now as they ever were. 

This is relevant to TWP because SL has shown their inability to do due diligence (remember licensing? that was a farce).

Has a 25 year track record of under investment in expansion and then getting seriously cold feet if it means clubs get less dough to buy another second rate crock.

A 25 year track record of poor youth development and yet expect clubs like TWP to generate their own.

I've lost interest over the last 25 years due to the above but at least TWP brought some spark and glamour back into the game. However the fact is the foundations on which SL is built does not provide a sound footing for new clubs like TWP.

It's insane watching SL repeat the same mistakes but then expecting a different outcome.

I also believe raking over the ashes for clues as to why this happens is simply a diversionary tactic.

 

Cool. None of that has anything to do with Catalans v Leeds being postponed, which is what we disagreed on. 

[John Drake]

New Toronto owner revealed

https://www.totalrl.com/new-toronto-owner-revealed/

[John Drake]

Brian McDermott: I hope the game makes the right decision on Toronto

https://www.totalrl.com/brian-mcdermott-i-hope-the-game-makes-the-right-decision-on-toronto/

[Dave T]

4 minutes ago, John Drake said:

Brian McDermott: I hope the game makes the right decision on Toronto

https://www.totalrl.com/brian-mcdermott-i-hope-the-game-makes-the-right-decision-on-toronto/

I don't like the headline but that is one of the best statements I have read from McDermott. It has Hunters mark all over it, much less aggressive and antagonistic. I'm not one who believes they should just come in and know their place - we know things like 'disrupting the market' are great buzz phrases, but I think they got some of it wrong. 

His tone is much more in line with Hunter and I can't disagree with anything he says there. 

[Tommygilf]

51 minutes ago, John Drake said:

New Toronto owner revealed

https://www.totalrl.com/new-toronto-owner-revealed/

Same as this guy? 

Anyone know who he is?

[Man of Kent]

1 hour ago, Tommygilf said:

Same as this guy? 

Anyone know who he is?

Yep. Carlo LiVolsi seems to be the CEO of a small-time distributor of white label shampoo and other heath & beauty products called Apex Branded Solutions. Also has links with Argyle’s oil & gas exploration outfits.  

LE reports Apex turns over $33m but a quick Google (and company check websites) suggests more like $2m (seven employees). Front man/puppet for Argyle?

[Whippet13]

55 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

Yep. Carlo LiVolsi seems to be the CEO of a small-time distributor of white label shampoo and other heath & beauty products called Apex Branded Solutions. Also has links with Argyle’s oil & gas exploration outfits.  

LE reports Apex turns over $33m but a quick Google (and company check websites) suggests more like $2m (seven employees). Front man/puppet for Argyle?

Those figures mean nothing and quite probably relate to a new business. He has other significant interests, including as a director of Apollo Health/Acasta Enterprises, a massively bigger Canadian business:

https://www.prpeak.com/potential-new-owner-of-toronto-wolfpack-identified-as-carlo-livolsi-1.24198690

https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20200811005745/en/Acasta-Enterprises-Reports-Quarter-2020-Results

If he's a front man, it's most likely for the people behind Apollo and they look like a profitable and rapidly growing enterprise.

[CanadianRugger]

http://www.apollocorp.com/about.html

Successful entrepreneur, investor and director of the largest personal care product manufacturer in Canada.

Don't doubt the wealth of the Italian community in Toronto.