The General 'Toronto Wolfpack' Discussion Thread

[Lowdesert]

17 hours ago, Dave T said:

I think the expenses point often gets belittled, but it is a serious point. As part of the decision on TWP when we look at cost v return it can become quite expensive (in RL terms) with unknown benefits in an unknown timescale. 

The cost of admitting TWP becomes probably half a million or so to the existing clubs. Some may be bold and say you just pay it, but when we talk about benefits we get told there will be no TV money for a while and this is reliant on more NA teams (and more associated costs), when people ask about players, the answer is it will be a generation. 

I think putting the onus on those pushing this expansion to cover costs is a fairly reasonable starting point. 

I agree.  This is why I’ve made the point regarding ex’s.  It will also apply to League 1, with Ottawa.  It would be good to know exactly how much those costs are.

If the RFL are the key decision maker (and they could be) then they should be finding ways around it.  The RFL introduced TWP in the 1st place.  

Now Elstone is publicly opposing TWP into SL, which I don’t personally believe is the right thing for him to do as it could been seen as influencing clubs, given his position.

[Dave T]

43 minutes ago, yipyee said:

Tell that to all the clubs who are no longer there,

League 1 may disappear 

As more and more sport is thrown at us and the participation is constantly under pressure from new sports emerging due to sports england funding for anyone who wants to start a new team /club then RL will die.

A good comparison would be to look at age old companies who didnt look to grow expand and modernise.

Who would have thought woolworths would have gone, and this happened because they stood still for too long.

Why do you think England RL played in Denver?

Why do you think Catalans played in Barcelona? Why are Catalans even in SL?

Why do you think we have staged England games in Liverpool?

Why do you think we have played Magic Weekends in Cardiff, Edinburgh and Newcastle?

Why do you think the World Cup is playing key games in Newcastle, as well as staging games in Middlesborough and Liverpool?

Why do you think Toronto, Ottawa and NY were given the nod to enter the RFL structure?

and so on....

RL is doing many different things (with mixed results) to try and grow.

[yipyee]

2 minutes ago, Dave T said:

1 - Agreed, but we need to be careful to think our own view is factual and others' are opinion based. We are generally all giving our opinion.

2 - Interested in this point - can you expand on that mate?

The London series was a concept of a road game between 2 top sides. 

New England and Miami (historically good)

From there they have built up the road games whilst increasing media presence, merchandising and created a UK academy. The London series now sell STs and sell out in less than an hour 

A team will eventually relocate to London( I dont agree with this bit but its my opinon)

One owner tried to buy Wembly sradium for their home. It now looks like it will be spurs as its the first purpose built NFL stadium outside of America with a seperate playing surface underneath the pitch.

They are now starting to replicate the system in Mexico.

NFL will happily relocate a team to a new area if the investment to facilities is there. (Again i dont agree with but it works).

So in 10 years of road games the NFL has a huge presence in virgin teritory including a tv deal with their own channel. Not bad

[Dave T]

3 minutes ago, Lowdesert said:

I agree.  This is why I’ve made the point regarding ex’s.  It will also apply to League 1, with Ottawa.  It would be good to know exactly how much those costs are.

If the RFL are the key decision maker (and they could be) then they should be finding ways around it.  The RFL introduced TWP in the 1st place.  

Now Elstone is publicly opposing TWP into SL, which I don’t personally believe is the right thing for him to do as it could been seen as influencing clubs, given his position.

Yup. If we are going to do something new that is costing half a million a year, we have to understand how it will be funded. We certainly shouldn't just blindly double down on it.

[yipyee]

33 minutes ago, Wildcat said:

Ok if this is fact, show me the evidence to back up this 'fact' then I shall concur. 

There is a report out based on the new tv deal. I would suggest this as a starting point to your education on the topic 

Basically SL want the same amount regardless of the value of the deal. Tgis would leave the RFL with a portion and the champ/league1 with nothing

[yipyee]

5 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Why do you think England RL played in Denver?

Why do you think Catalans played in Barcelona? Why are Catalans even in SL?

Why do you think we have staged England games in Liverpool?

Why do you think we have played Magic Weekends in Cardiff, Edinburgh and Newcastle?

Why do you think the World Cup is playing key games in Newcastle, as well as staging games in Middlesborough and Liverpool?

Why do you think Toronto, Ottawa and NY were given the nod to enter the RFL structure?

and so on....

RL is doing many different things (with mixed results) to try and grow.

I agree!!

But theres no point playing in a new place and thats it.

There needs to be a stratergy.

Play in cardiff but keep going back there and grow the occasion,  then invest in player development etc...

RL play at growth but dont know what they are doing 

Also in my opinion the liverpool games are to tap into the north west fan base at a big stadium and has very little to do with expansion to scouseland

[Dave T]

2 minutes ago, yipyee said:

The London series was a concept of a road game between 2 top sides. 

New England and Miami (historically good)

From there they have built up the road games whilst increasing media presence, merchandising and created a UK academy. The London series now sell STs and sell out in less than an hour 

A team will eventually relocate to London( I dont agree with this bit but its my opinon)

One owner tried to buy Wembly sradium for their home. It now looks like it will be spurs as its the first purpose built NFL stadium outside of America with a seperate playing surface underneath the pitch.

They are now starting to replicate the system in Mexico.

NFL will happily relocate a team to a new area if the investment to facilities is there. (Again i dont agree with but it works).

So in 10 years of road games the NFL has a huge presence in virgin teritory including a tv deal with their own channel. Not bad

Yes, we should strip out the disparity in funding, but I think there are absolutely things we could mirror from this. I have regularly stated that my expansion approach would be to target a handful of key areas and use tools like games to drive interest and presence in those - not unlike what is happening in Newcastle now. We touched on that approach almost 25 years ago by taking games on the road and backed away because of lack of funds. 

To link this back to TWP, Toronto wouldn't have made anybody's list of key target areas though.

[Wildcat]

4 minutes ago, yipyee said:

There is a report out based on the new tv deal. I would suggest this as a starting point to your education on the topic 

Basically SL want the same amount regardless of the value of the deal. Tgis would leave the RFL with a portion and the champ/league1 with nothing

So a report regarding a new TV deal is your back up evidence regarding fact? 

I suggest you look in a dictionary at the meaning of the word 'fact' and educate yourself.

Save you continuing to look rather foolish. 

[yipyee]

1 minute ago, Dave T said:

Yes, we should strip out the disparity in funding, but I think there are absolutely things we could mirror from this. I have regularly stated that my expansion approach would be to target a handful of key areas and use tools like games to drive interest and presence in those - not unlike what is happening in Newcastle now. We touched on that approach almost 25 years ago by taking games on the road and backed away because of lack of funds. 

To link this back to TWP, Toronto wouldn't have made anybody's list of key target areas though.

I agree 100% with that approach!

I also agree that Toronto would have been completly off the radar but to be fair anywhere over the atlantic would have been

[Lowdesert]

Just now, Dave T said:

Yup. If we are going to do something new that is costing half a million a year, we have to understand how it will be funded. We certainly shouldn't just blindly double down on it.

This could be part of a deal TWP might offer involving NA media (yes, I know it’s not nailed on but could happen).  

The big issue for me is that SL clubs, barring Cats, Saints, Wire, Wigan, Leeds are all living hand to mouth.  Its probably a no brainier for those other clubs to vote against TWP.  This is why the RFL should be providing assistance.  Still has to include SL granting central finding in, say, 2 years.

Despite all these opinions and assumptions, Ottawa carry on signing players and growing their presence before League 1.  The costs are going to be the same and the risk.  Seems they are the elephant in the room.

[yipyee]

Just now, Wildcat said:

So a report regarding a new TV deal is your back up evidence regarding fact? 

I suggest you look in a dictionary at the meaning of the word 'fact' and educate yourself.

Save you continuing to look rather foolish. 

So instead of looking at the facts tou hurl abuse... nice

Go and read into the bleak future from several sources and then we can debate

[Dave T]

1 minute ago, yipyee said:

I agree 100% with that approach!

I also agree that Toronto would have been completly off the radar but to be fair anywhere over the atlantic would have been

And this ultimately is why I am supportive of these opportunities if somebody is prepared to pay for them. I think that is quite a different proposal from a stranger popping up and offering to run an expansion club on the other side of the world for the price of £2.3m a year (central funding plus additional expenses).

I would cap how long that arrangement goes on for though.

[Wildcat]

Just now, yipyee said:

So instead of looking at the facts tou hurl abuse... nice

Go and read into the bleak future from several sources and then we can debate

I like to debate with people, usually regarding their differing opinions.

Massively unlike our tedious 'joust' so I shall leave you to your Harold Camping assumptions RL is doomed!

Have a lovely evening. 

[Dave T]

2 minutes ago, Lowdesert said:

This could be part of a deal TWP might offer involving NA media (yes, I know it’s not nailed on but could happen).  

The big issue for me is that SL clubs, barring Cats, Saints, Wire, Wigan, Leeds are all living hand to mouth.  Its probably a no brainier for those other clubs to vote against TWP.  This is why the RFL should be providing assistance.  Still has to include SL granting central finding in, say, 2 years.

Despite all these opinions and assumptions, Ottawa carry on signing players and growing their presence before League 1.  The costs are going to be the same and the risk.  Seems they are the elephant in the room.

Didn't somebody mention here that the clubs can have a say but it isn't a voting matter? The RFL and SLE will make the decision (I understand the contradiction there)?

The Ottawa piece will be interesting to watch, if the same mistakes have been made i.e. no water-tight agreements in place, then heads should roll, because quite frankly this soap opera is becoming a rather distasteful distraction from a lot of other stuff that needs to happen.

[yipyee]

3 minutes ago, Wildcat said:

I like to debate with people, usually regarding their differing opinions.

Massively unlike our tedious 'joust' so I shall leave you to your Harold Camping assumptions RL is doomed!

Have a lovely evening. 

I would do but its afternoon so that sums up your knowledge and how you obtain it. A simple glance at the clock is too much beyond you?

I am not saying RL is doomed, that is what you want people to say i am saying wake up and take a look around and take the oppotunities to address the issues at hand but you dont even know the time of day so i will leave it there...

[Harry Stottle]

1 hour ago, Wildcat said:

Correct. Opinions are now facts on here, great isn't it? 

 

Sorry just realised I Quoted the wrong person

[Wildcat]

Just now, yipyee said:

I would do but its afternoon so that sums up your knowledge and how you obtain it. A simple glance at the clock is too much beyond you?

I am not saying RL is doomed, that is what you want people to say i am saying wake up and take a look around and take the oppotunities to address the issues at hand but you dont even know the time of day so i will leave it there...

So as it's afternoon it's not practical to hope someone has a good evening? 

You literally would argue with yourself in phone box wouldn't you?

Do leave it there, along with your 'oppotunities' (sic)

 

[Styx]

Lazy journalism though just to post a link onto a new thread, when forum rules are to put anything Toronto related into the one thread...

[whatmichaelsays]

42 minutes ago, yipyee said:

I agree!!

But theres no point playing in a new place and thats it.

There needs to be a stratergy.

Play in cardiff but keep going back there and grow the occasion,  then invest in player development etc...

RL play at growth but dont know what they are doing 

Also in my opinion the liverpool games are to tap into the north west fan base at a big stadium and has very little to do with expansion to scouseland

I think the issue here is that the talk about "expansion" is framed almost entirely as a geographic issue. The aim is not necessarily to grow the geography, but to grow the audience. If we evolve the product to appeal to new audiences and create new demand, geography is actually a secondary issue. 

Playing games in Liverpool or Cardiff or Newcastle doesn't necessarily expand the audience - those events are broadly sold to the same people that usually buy it, only with the added hassle of the travel thrown into the bargain. I know we often see stats on the percentage of people from [insert area here] who have bought tickets, but it's usually small-fry in comparison. 

To me, the question is how we find new generations of supporter, and different demographics of people, to watch RL. How does RL 'cut through' in a sports and entertainment market where we're not just competing with other sports, but with other pasttimes, with PlayStations and with InstaFaceTok? We can't just keep relying on dads to drag their reluctant kids along and hope that will keep the sport going for another generation. I've said it before, but we have to get away from this hubris of thinking "this is a great product that's just marketed badly". It's a great sport - I would argue the best of all - on the occasions that it is played at it's best, but that doesn't necessarily make it a great product. 

I think this is what the American sports get. They don't just "play a game in London" and think that it's job done - they actively identify audiences that they want to attract, build something that those people want and sell not just a game, but an event and a brand that they can buy into. RL doesn't do that. 

[Eddie]

1 hour ago, Hela Wigmen said:

Re-admitting them and pandering to their excuse of not getting the £1.5m per annum changes nothing. The proverbial hamster wheel continues spinning till it can take no more and it falls apart, again. Just like it did with PSG. Just like it did with Gateshead Thunder. Just like it did with Celtic Crusaders. And just like it will again with Toronto Wolfpack. They were set up to fail and with their possible re-admission, nothing else appears to have changed so Toronto Wolfpack 2.0 will be set up to fail as well. If Super League are to readmit Toronto, it has to treat them differently.

Their excuse is the Covid pandemic, not having any income from home games and issues with visas as the season extends beyond its expected end date. This has nothing to do with PSG, Gateshead or Celtic Crusaders; though in case you missed it both of the latter have legacy clubs in league one. 

[Dave T]

It seems odd to finish off with a parting shot that TWP costs SL no money, shortly after criticising them for not paying TWP £1.8m.

It is also strange to ignore RL's growth since 1996 but vaguely celebrate other sports' growth during that period.

[The Future is League]

1 hour ago, Hela Wigmen said:

Re-admitting them and pandering to their excuse of not getting the £1.5m per annum changes nothing. The proverbial hamster wheel continues spinning till it can take no more and it falls apart, again. Just like it did with PSG. Just like it did with Gateshead Thunder. Just like it did with Celtic Crusaders. And just like it will again with Toronto Wolfpack. They were set up to fail and with their possible re-admission, nothing else appears to have changed so Toronto Wolfpack 2.0 will be set up to fail as well. If Super League are to readmit Toronto, it has to treat them differently.

I thought Gateshead Thunder of 1999 were merged with Hull FC to stop FC going under.

[tuutaisrambo]

Bearing in mind the current Global Pandemic going on..........

If SL let TWP in again.......... unless things drastically change before next season they won't be able to operate anyway?

COVID is to blame for them pulling out in the first place isn't it?

[yipyee]

38 minutes ago, Wildcat said:

So as it's afternoon it's not practical to hope someone has a good evening? 

You literally would argue with yourself in phone box wouldn't you?

Do leave it there, along with your 'oppotunities' (sic)

 

Ha so your point was nonsense

Your response was nonsense

And now your resorting to pettiness

What a sad individual you are

[Man of Kent]

7 minutes ago, tuutaisrambo said:

Bearing in mind the current Global Pandemic going on..........

If SL let TWP in again.......... unless things drastically change before next season they won't be able to operate anyway?

COVID is to blame for them pulling out in the first place isn't it?

It's a good point. We're five months away from the 2021 season and Canada is still enforcing a mandatory 14-day quarantine period for visitors. That's before you get into if/when fans will be allowed to attend.