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The General 'Toronto Wolfpack' Discussion Thread

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32 minutes ago, PhilCarrington said:

There you go slagging off the other clubs yet again.

Maybe TWP should treat the other clubs right if there is a next time. Brian Mac's appearance on Sky didn't fill me with confidence that things were really going to change. Still no news on whether TWP will pay their RFL creditors.

Your ignorance of the situation vis-a-vis TWP and SL is showing. SL treated TWP appallingly badly. And no, that is not just my opinion. It is a fact. MPG last year anyone?

Edited by TIWIT
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1 hour ago, Kayakman said:

I take it that you are referring to the SL owners...these folks have to get their act together!....I know the SL owners are pleading (along with the RFL) for Toronto to stay in SL at all costs....I guess we will stay: but they had better treat us right this time!

Really, have you got inside information?

I FWIW don't think that the vote as Knobby eluded to is as much a foregone conclusion as you think it is, if it was we would already know if TWP had been accepted back.

If you keep building yourself up, the fall will be harder to accept.

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30 minutes ago, PhilCarrington said:

There you go slagging off the other clubs yet again.

Maybe TWP should treat the other clubs right if there is a next time. Brian Mac's appearance on Sky didn't fill me with confidence that things were really going to change. Still no news on whether TWP will pay their RFL creditors.

To be fair, he was directly responding to someone saying exactly the same thing the other way.

My understanding is that TWP say they will talk to all creditors,  presumably pay some in full and offer other's a compromise. They cannot simply refuse to pay creditors. Or do you mean they owe the RFL money? If so, imagine they will have to pay all of that.

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26 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Really, have you got inside information?

I FWIW don't think that the vote as Knobby eluded to is as much a foregone conclusion as you think it is, if it was we would already know if TWP had been accepted back.

If you keep building yourself up, the fall will be harder to accept.

The bigger they are the harder they fall....if it is the will of the Rugby Gods then let it be so...doesn't change the fact it would be like SL shooting themselves in head with a #1 shotgun shell...lets have the decision now and be done with this matter once and for all...let the cards fall where they may...enough talk.

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maybe TWP should treat the other clubs right..seriously? free flights, free food, free hotels, enhanced attendance and tv coverage plus a SKY bonus of 100k per club..what else could we include..hookers, booze, trips to Niagara Falls perhaps??

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3 minutes ago, RobertAM said:

maybe TWP should treat the other clubs right..seriously? free flights, free food, free hotels, enhanced attendance and tv coverage plus a SKY bonus of 100k per club..what else could we include..hookers, booze, trips to Niagara Falls perhaps??

Sounds good

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"At times to be silent is to lie. You will win because you have enough brute force. But you will not convince. For to convince you need to persuade. And in order to persuade you would need what you lack: Reason and Right."

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4 minutes ago, RobertAM said:

maybe TWP should treat the other clubs right..seriously? free flights, free food, free hotels, enhanced attendance and tv coverage plus a SKY bonus of 100k per club..what else could we include..hookers, booze, trips to Niagara Falls perhaps??

To be fair, hopefully the circus has moved on.

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4 hours ago, RP London said:

No FFS!

firstly i said "Some of the stuff in the club shops is nice, totally agree and some clubs are doing it really well but some are not" .. so no im not saying "none of the clubs"

in general they dont have enough and its not good enough and they could do more and it could be better.. 

seriously read the posts.

How many club shops have you been in ? , Seriously ?

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36 minutes ago, Whippet13 said:

To be fair, he was directly responding to someone saying exactly the same thing the other way.

My understanding is that TWP say they will talk to all creditors,  presumably pay some in full and offer other's a compromise. They cannot simply refuse to pay creditors. Or do you mean they owe the RFL money? If so, imagine they will have to pay all of that.

I think it was Hunter who said that since talk of TWP's resurrection went public they've had creditors coming out of the woodwork, some of them hitherto unheard of. The club is investigating each one to verify they are indeed valid.

They will definitely have to repay any moneys owed to RFL/SL but I imagine TWP would have had to do that before even sitting down to negotiate the future with them.

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It does feel a shame we never got to see a packed Toronto game in Super League, I feel that clubs would be more willing to give them more of a shout if this had happened. I'd like to see Toronto in, they could certainly fill their stadium and having another club with roughly 10,000 paying customers would be excellent. That's nothing to be sniffed at. 

Sadly, there is no way this can be financially sustainable on just signing superstars and with no TV deal. I feel that through awful financial mismanagement and some classic Rugby League nose cutting we might have blown it. I'd be up for letting them back in with Ottowa, free from relegation (with player quotas), tell them they get whatever money they can from a Canadian TV deal and build from there. 

It may not be the superstar splash they wanted and my worry would be that Toronto fans wouldn't enjoy watching their team get pumped for the first few years but a humbled (but still included) Toronto would be good for the sport.

I think they will get the boot though sadly and if that happens, we need to get alot more serious about growing the game in France and I need to find a bank to rob to rebuild Bradford. 

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1 hour ago, RobertAM said:

maybe TWP should treat the other clubs right..seriously? free flights, free food, free hotels, enhanced attendance and tv coverage plus a SKY bonus of 100k per club..what else could we include..hookers, booze, trips to Niagara Falls perhaps??

Add those extras on and the SL Clubs will definitely vote them in!

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1 hour ago, RobertAM said:

maybe TWP should treat the other clubs right..seriously? free flights, free food, free hotels, enhanced attendance and tv coverage plus a SKY bonus of 100k per club..what else could we include..hookers, booze, trips to Niagara Falls perhaps??

Listen, I know for a fact that there were free trips supplied to Niagara Falls....by luxury Coach....I know this as in 'Gods Word'.  I'm not saying anymore.

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2 hours ago, TIWIT said:

Your ignorance of the situation vis-a-vis TWP and SL is showing. SL treated TWP appallingly badly. And no, that is not just my opinion. It is a fact. MPG last year anyone?

You are referring to SL. I referred to SL clubs. Did any SL CLUBS treated TWP badly at the MPG last year?

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25 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

It does feel a shame we never got to see a packed Toronto game in Super League, I feel that clubs would be more willing to give them more of a shout if this had happened. I'd like to see Toronto in, they could certainly fill their stadium and having another club with roughly 10,000 paying customers would be excellent. That's nothing to be sniffed at. 

Sadly, there is no way this can be financially sustainable on just signing superstars and with no TV deal. I feel that through awful financial mismanagement and some classic Rugby League nose cutting we might have blown it. I'd be up for letting them back in with Ottowa, free from relegation (with player quotas), tell them they get whatever money they can from a Canadian TV deal and build from there. 

It may not be the superstar splash they wanted and my worry would be that Toronto fans wouldn't enjoy watching their team get pumped for the first few years but a humbled (but still included) Toronto would be good for the sport.

I think they will get the boot though sadly and if that happens, we need to get alot more serious about growing the game in France and I need to find a bank to rob to rebuild Bradford. 

That is a good post.   You've got the main points though....getting the big crowds would not be a problem if in Championship or even League 1 again...it would take some promotion to try and repair the damage but understand, on the ground over here, they will draw the fans either win or lose....thats the feeling on the ground over here.  Ticket prices could go up a little but not too much...they will draw (except if the weather is bad).

The economic realities dictate SL though...with an equal share of any Sky Deal...if Toronto, in a few years, can strike their own TV deal that could be deducted from their previous share and given to the other clubs, problem solved easily.   The development of Ottawa furthers the cause in all ways.

People have wanted expansion over time and we all know the tales so no sense getting into it, is Toronto the right place, etc. etc. ad nauseam.   For the last time.

FOR THE LAS TIME!   I will explain it using an analogy or a thing I have experienced in reality many times.

You are on a kayak journey of 40 days...on the water pretty well every day going solo...going hard all day...sleeping on the rocks at night...no contacts.    You have planned your route carefully for the trip using laminated topo maps (x25)...aerial photos, GPS Route locator etc. etc.

Unfortunately for you, you have engaged in a long crossing of 6 hours and the weather changes at hour three, no land in sight of course, waves getting bigger, heavy chop now forming, warning issued by Coastguard on Channel 16 of emergency radio, heavy chop now!  large waves forming and blowing me off course!.....I have no choice...I must trust in and go with the wind...surfing constantly on large wave crests with fully loaded kayak  ------- sail aloft!.....moving fast man...and then I found it.....the Garden of Eden, untouched wilderness from the Last Ice Age (10 000 years ago roughly)...the most beautiful place I ever camped in  or around.  A place called Desert Island (the last of the great dunes and all!).

That is what it will be like for all of Rugby League if SL fully accepts Toronto.   Stand and be counted, a wolf never bows or grovels.

As they like to say in theses parts,

You can take the wolf out of the woods but you can''t take the woods our of the wolf!  And I know that for a fact too since my best buddy owns a wolf.

 

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4 hours ago, Kayakman said:

I take it that you are referring to the SL owners...these folks have to get their act together!....I know the SL owners are pleading (along with the RFL) for Toronto to stay in SL at all costs....I guess we will stay: but they had better treat us right this time!

When I was a kid my mom would come out with a whole series of quotes, the one that springs to mind here is “people who live in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones”. Sadly as much as there’s been a long series of screw ups by the RFL/SL the past couple of years have seen plenty of screw ups by TWP and their management and the amount of negative press generated by the whole visa saga and the non payment of players and suppliers means that any future moves are always going to be treated by a lot of scepticism, even by pro expansion fans by me. My position all along is that it’s unforgivable to not pay your players and small business suppliers since these are livelihoods you are messing with. I would happily vote for TWP to come back (if of course I had one), provided there is no return to the less than ethical practices which seem to have been part and parcel of Mr Argyles regime. If the new ownership can’t behave ethically then it’s a resounding no, and that should apply to every team with SL aspirations.

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2 minutes ago, Kayakman said:

That is a good post.   You've got the main points though....getting the big crowds would not be a problem if in Championship or even League 1 again...it would take some promotion to try and repair the damage but understand, on the ground over here, they will draw the fans either win or lose....thats the feeling on the ground over here.  Ticket prices could go up a little but not too much...they will draw (except if the weather is bad).

The economic realities dictate SL though...with an equal share of any Sky Deal...if Toronto, in a few years, can strike their own TV deal that could be deducted from their previous share and given to the other clubs, problem solved easily.   The development of Ottawa furthers the cause in all ways.

People have wanted expansion over time and we all know the tales so no sense getting into it, is Toronto the right place, etc. etc. ad nauseam.   For the last time.

 

They may draw the crowds in Champ and League 1 but they were losing money hand over fist in League 1 and Championship to my understanding. No, I think it is clear the club is only financial viable at SL level, with their own TV deal. I don't think you have a cat in hell's chance of getting any money from the TV deal in the UK, purely down to Covid (and I think Toronto would need to explain how they actually add to that pie to take a slice from it) so that "if Toronto can get their own TV deal" isn't going to be good enough. A compromise would be that the SL gives them a cut based on securing a Canadian FTA dea,l so at least exposure to the sport and potential sponsors etc can actually grow. Again, without a second club  in Canada for a TV channel to be told "That's 20 or so plus weeks of live sport for you here" it isn't happening. It seems so odd that we are having Ottowa come in just as we are getting ready to give the boot to Toronto.  

I guess I would be called an expansionist on this forum as I would still want Toronto in but I am prepared to treat them differently with certain privileges (no relegation for you and Ottowa) but certain demands (you have a minimum number of Canadian or NA players and no, there's no exceptions). 

For me, the idea of Ottowa and Toronto both in the league in front of healthy crowds (though I do worry about the optics of Ottowa playing in a 24,000 capacity stadium, there is no way they are filling that) with 3 big rivalry games a season (ok, for the first couple of years they will be competing for a wooden spoon but having those games will I think keep enough people keen on the sport to help it grow) would be amazing. If we could get two French clubs locked in to a similar scheme in a 14 team SL (What a Magic weekend that would be. You could have Toronto vs Ottowa in Canada, Catalan vs Toulouse in France or Catalonia and 5 great UK based games) I think Rugby League would have two tiers of incredibly exciting and prosperous RL. 

I just fear too many bridges have been burnt. 

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On 15/09/2020 at 16:47, Harry Stottle said:

That'll be good, if Leigh are a candidate of a club from below SL to slide to oblivion and go out of buisness then expect casualties of gigantic proportions, any number of people will then be able to call out your name and shout YIPEEEEEEEE, tossers!

Leigh overspend, normal clubs in the champ know their level a d cut thier cloth appropriatly

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On 15/09/2020 at 21:07, GUBRATS said:

So what do you suggest ' real ' sales should be for a Championship Club ?

If clubs from thousands of miles away can sell merchandise in leigh (and other uk towns) then what is leigh doing wrong? And dont say yeah but but but they have money, theres a reason they have money..... 

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36 minutes ago, Kayakman said:

That is a good post.   You've got the main points though....getting the big crowds would not be a problem if in Championship or even League 1 again...it would take some promotion to try and repair the damage but understand, on the ground over here, they will draw the fans either win or lose....thats the feeling on the ground over here.  Ticket prices could go up a little but not too much...they will draw (except if the weather is bad).

The economic realities dictate SL though...with an equal share of any Sky Deal...if Toronto, in a few years, can strike their own TV deal that could be deducted from their previous share and given to the other clubs, problem solved easily.   The development of Ottawa furthers the cause in all ways.

People have wanted expansion over time and we all know the tales so no sense getting into it, is Toronto the right place, etc. etc. ad nauseam.   For the last time.

FOR THE LAS TIME!   I will explain it using an analogy or a thing I have experienced in reality many times.

You are on a kayak journey of 40 days...on the water pretty well every day going solo...going hard all day...sleeping on the rocks at night...no contacts.    You have planned your route carefully for the trip using laminated topo maps (x25)...aerial photos, GPS Route locator etc. etc.

Unfortunately for you, you have engaged in a long crossing of 6 hours and the weather changes at hour three, no land in sight of course, waves getting bigger, heavy chop now forming, warning issued by Coastguard on Channel 16 of emergency radio, heavy chop now!  large waves forming and blowing me off course!.....I have no choice...I must trust in and go with the wind...surfing constantly on large wave crests with fully loaded kayak  ------- sail aloft!.....moving fast man...and then I found it.....the Garden of Eden, untouched wilderness from the Last Ice Age (10 000 years ago roughly)...the most beautiful place I ever camped in  or around.  A place called Desert Island (the last of the great dunes and all!).

That is what it will be like for all of Rugby League if SL fully accepts Toronto.   Stand and be counted, a wolf never bows or grovels.

As they like to say in theses parts,

You can take the wolf out of the woods but you can''t take the woods our of the wolf!  And I know that for a fact too since my best buddy owns a wolf.

 

I would prefer the trip to Niagara Falls myself.

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16 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

 

They may draw the crowds in Champ and League 1 but they were losing money hand over fist in League 1 and Championship to my understanding. No, I think it is clear the club is only financial viable at SL level, with their own TV deal. I don't think you have a cat in hell's chance of getting any money from the TV deal in the UK, purely down to Covid (and I think Toronto would need to explain how they actually add to that pie to take a slice from it) so that "if Toronto can get their own TV deal" isn't going to be good enough. A compromise would be that the SL gives them a cut based on securing a Canadian FTA dea,l so at least exposure to the sport and potential sponsors etc can actually grow. Again, without a second club  in Canada for a TV channel to be told "That's 20 or so plus weeks of live sport for you here" it isn't happening. It seems so odd that we are having Ottowa come in just as we are getting ready to give the boot to Toronto.  

I guess I would be called an expansionist on this forum as I would still want Toronto in but I am prepared to treat them differently with certain privileges (no relegation for you and Ottowa) but certain demands (you have a minimum number of Canadian or NA players and no, there's no exceptions). 

For me, the idea of Ottowa and Toronto both in the league in front of healthy crowds (though I do worry about the optics of Ottowa playing in a 24,000 capacity stadium, there is no way they are filling that) with 3 big rivalry games a season (ok, for the first couple of years they will be competing for a wooden spoon but having those games will I think keep enough people keen on the sport to help it grow) would be amazing. If we could get two French clubs locked in to a similar scheme in a 14 team SL (What a Magic weekend that would be. You could have Toronto vs Ottowa in Canada, Catalan vs Toulouse in France or Catalonia and 5 great UK based games) I think Rugby League would have two tiers of incredibly exciting and prosperous RL. 

I just fear too many bridges have been burnt. 

Please teach your autocorrect how to spell Ottawa. It's very annoying. Like Londun. 

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1 hour ago, PhilCarrington said:

You are referring to SL. I referred to SL clubs. Did any SL CLUBS treated TWP badly at the MPG last year?

Are you attempting to differentiate Super League from its member clubs? I know they are separate corporate entities but I'm also pretty darn sure each club has a vote regarding matters such as the terms whereby TWP enters the League. Isn't that what the 11 teams are deciding now?

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3 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

You quoted all of that to point out a typo. 

I'm on my phone. Takes way too long to remove unnecessary content.

And if it aggravates you imagine how we Canadians feel seeing Ottawa misspelled half a dozen times in a single post?

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1 hour ago, ShropshireBull said:

 

They may draw the crowds in Champ and League 1 but they were losing money hand over fist in League 1 and Championship to my understanding. No, I think it is clear the club is only financial viable at SL level, with their own TV deal. I don't think you have a cat in hell's chance of getting any money from the TV deal in the UK, purely down to Covid (and I think Toronto would need to explain how they actually add to that pie to take a slice from it) so that "if Toronto can get their own TV deal" isn't going to be good enough. A compromise would be that the SL gives them a cut based on securing a Canadian FTA dea,l so at least exposure to the sport and potential sponsors etc can actually grow. Again, without a second club  in Canada for a TV channel to be told "That's 20 or so plus weeks of live sport for you here" it isn't happening. It seems so odd that we are having Ottowa come in just as we are getting ready to give the boot to Toronto.  

I guess I would be called an expansionist on this forum as I would still want Toronto in but I am prepared to treat them differently with certain privileges (no relegation for you and Ottowa) but certain demands (you have a minimum number of Canadian or NA players and no, there's no exceptions). 

For me, the idea of Ottowa and Toronto both in the league in front of healthy crowds (though I do worry about the optics of Ottowa playing in a 24,000 capacity stadium, there is no way they are filling that) with 3 big rivalry games a season (ok, for the first couple of years they will be competing for a wooden spoon but having those games will I think keep enough people keen on the sport to help it grow) would be amazing. If we could get two French clubs locked in to a similar scheme in a 14 team SL (What a Magic weekend that would be. You could have Toronto vs Ottowa in Canada, Catalan vs Toulouse in France or Catalonia and 5 great UK based games) I think Rugby League would have two tiers of incredibly exciting and prosperous RL. 

I just fear too many bridges have been burnt. 

I agree with alot of what you say but you have to go and wreck everything by spelling Ottawa incorrectly...please tell me this was accidental in nature.

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1 minute ago, Kayakman said:

I agree with alot of what you say but you have to go and wreck everything by spelling Ottawa incorrectly...please tell me this was accidental in nature.

I never spell it wrong.. But that’s for a reason.

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