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The General 'Toronto Wolfpack' Discussion Thread


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2 minutes ago, Kayakman said:

We will do it!   Give us the tools and we will finish the job!

You mean development officers and coaches? 

But firstly they need something to work with as I said plans laid, budgets made available and transparent and intentions founded and delivered.

You guy's in Canada keep telling us how well recieved the game is over there, the infrastructure needs initiating, then volunteer's will take over and keep the momentum going building stronger and stronger.

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9 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

You mean development officers and coaches? 

But firstly they need something to work with as I said plans laid, budgets made available and transparent and intentions founded and delivered.

You guy's in Canada keep telling us how well recieved the game is over there, the infrastructure needs initiating, then volunteer's will take over and keep the momentum going building stronger and stronger.

Let us at 'em!   Let us at 'em!   We are chomping at the bit over here to get going,,,,,but you have put a lock on the cage and won't let us out.....open that lock and let us at 'em!  We are ready....come on open it up, just a crack...just a wee crack and we promise we will be good.

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41 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

You mean development officers and coaches? 

But firstly they need something to work with as I said plans laid, budgets made available and transparent and intentions founded and delivered.

You guy's in Canada keep telling us how well recieved the game is over there, the infrastructure needs initiating, then volunteer's will take over and keep the momentum going building stronger and stronger.

  Spot on,you don't build a house without putting in firm foundations.If you do you can expect a wobble down the line.10 to 15 yrs getting the game established in colleges and communities and building a true fan base not trying the short cut route.

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12 minutes ago, sentoffagain2 said:

  Spot on,you don't build a house without putting in firm foundations.If you do you can expect a wobble down the line.10 to 15 yrs getting the game established in colleges and communities and building a true fan base not trying the short cut route.

Out of interest how would you go about getting colleges and communities to take up a non-native sport they know nothing about with no teams? Also, what constitutes a 'true' fan base?

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1 minute ago, Moove said:

Out of interest how would you go about getting colleges and communities to take up a non-native sport they know nothing about with no teams? Also, what constitutes a 'true' fan base?

I'm not getting into the "true fan base" nonsense.....

But, is it not a reasonable expectation that development work is shifted up a gear or two, especially if twp are welcomed back which I think they will be now and with Ottawa bubbling on the back shelf?

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Just now, Robin Evans said:

I'm not getting into the "true fan base" nonsense.....

But, is it not a reasonable expectation that development work is shifted up a gear or two, especially if twp are welcomed back which I think they will be now and with Ottawa bubbling on the back shelf?

Yeah it's absolutely reasonable to expect it's shifted up a few gears. It's disappointing that it doesn't seem to have happened already and that a commitment to do so isn't attached to  admission of new clubs in the first place. I don't see it as unreasonable though to build from the top and bottom at the same time meeting in the middle somewhere. If they're around long enough for that to happen of course.

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1 minute ago, Moove said:

Yeah it's absolutely reasonable to expect it's shifted up a few gears. It's disappointing that it doesn't seem to have happened already and that a commitment to do so isn't attached to  admission of new clubs in the first place. I don't see it as unreasonable though to build from the top and bottom at the same time meeting in the middle somewhere. If they're around long enough for that to happen of course.

Pretty much, yes

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Argyle has gone without picking up the 'expansion' baton and he was in it we are told for his personal pleasure, now we have LiVolsi proffering to take the club forward, but he has a few handles attached to his ownership, leaving funding and travel costs aside he wants 3 years immunity from relegation and a marketplace for his companies products. In another post I suggested that those two could be of a unified function, if he doesn't get the immunity and TWP are relegated it will affect his product sales, and if he gets the immunity and his products don't acheive his expectations in 3 years will he be on his bike? Realistically is sponsering TWP a different form of marketing costs for LiVolsi?

Call me cynical, but what we have discussed above regarding developing the game on the parks and fields in Toronto and not just at Lamport Stadiumm is something that I believe the people who will be deciding on Toronto's future should be looking at and a firm commitment from LiVolsi to initiate it within the community.

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26 minutes ago, dkw said:

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Maybe so, what is your take on actually 'expanding' the game in Canada, do you think it will ever grow over if just left alone without insisting on a development programme.

Are you gulable enough to believe Perez "we want 10 homegrown player's representing the Aces" It will take the same course as Toronto.

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1 hour ago, sentoffagain2 said:

  Spot on,you don't build a house without putting in firm foundations.If you do you can expect a wobble down the line.10 to 15 yrs getting the game established in colleges and communities and building a true fan base not trying the short cut route.

TOTALLY 100% SPOT ON:)

 

Paul

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You can have a successful team in a non traditional area without it having any, or very little increase or impact on the relevant Sport in that area.

melbourne storm in the nrl are a very good example with good crowds and great success, however after close to 25 years they still have no Victorian players and there is no growth in the local leagues.

but they are not too far from the top in the nrl popularity stakes.

so it can be done.

having said that.

storm had a real billionaire behind them for a long time....and he did lose a bit of money on them.
the South east coast base was fundamental...Perth and Adelaide both failed, and yes there was some sports politics involved, but if they were going to be anywhere near a going concern both would still be there.

livolsi still appears to be into product promotion and the product is not necessarily rugby.

and they call it tyranny of distance for a reason.

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1 hour ago, Moove said:

Out of interest how would you go about getting colleges and communities to take up a non-native sport they know nothing about with no teams? Also, what constitutes a 'true' fan base?

 I remember when none of our Universities played Rugby League but through hard work by Maurice Oldroyd,Garry Hetherington,Referee Fred Lindop and others teams started playing in Leeds and Sheffield and from those gradually over time more came on board.When i was a lad if someone told you that Oxford and Cambridge  Universities would play Rugby League they would have ended up in Stanley Royd Hospital for the mentally impaired.

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2 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

You mean development officers and coaches? 

But firstly they need something to work with as I said plans laid, budgets made available and transparent and intentions founded and delivered.

You guy's in Canada keep telling us how well recieved the game is over there, the infrastructure needs initiating, then volunteer's will take over and keep the momentum going building stronger and stronger.

Totally agree H, but will not happen without the professional organisation of the Wolfpack and Aces at the top 

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1 minute ago, Quolls2020 said:

You can have a successful team in a non traditional area without it have any, or very little increase or impact on the relevant Sport in that area.

melbourne storm in the nrl are a very good example with good crowds and great success, however after close to 25 years they still have no Victorian players and there is no growth in the local leagues.

but they are not too far from the top in the nrl popularity stakes.

so it can be done.

having said that.

storm had a real billionaire behind them for a long time....and he did lose a bit of money on them.
the South east coast base was fundamental...Perth and Adelaide both failed, and yes there was some sports politics involved, but if they were going to be anywhere near a going concern both would still be there.

livolsi still appears to be into product promotion and the product is not necessarily rugby.

and they call it tyranny of distance for a reason.

Aren't Melbourne's development systems based in Queensland though? They have still brought through players in their own systems, just in a more fertile region where it was easier to get the required results (NRL standard players) faster.

LiVolsi will have to convince those making the decision on TWP's application that he is committed to delivering what they require of him and that he is committed for the long term to funding TWP rather than looking for a marketing tool. I do wonder whether in the event of him not satisfying them that he can and will make it work and will stick around to do it, if the SL & RFL would allow other parties to submit applications to take over and re-enter TWP into the league system (likely below SL) in 2022. It would be a shame if it was to be a flat refusal due to them not liking the approach of the first bidder to step up.

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38 minutes ago, sentoffagain2 said:

 I remember when none of our Universities played Rugby League but through hard work by Maurice Oldroyd,Garry Hetherington,Referee Fred Lindop and others teams started playing in Leeds and Sheffield and from those gradually over time more came on board.When i was a lad if someone told you that Oxford and Cambridge  Universities would play Rugby League they would have ended up in Stanley Royd Hospital for the mentally impaired.

It's more accurate to say that RL clubs exist at many universities, but unless I'm mistaken it isn't a university-funded varsity sport in any of them.

51 minutes ago, Quolls2020 said:

You can have a successful team in a non traditional area without it having any, or very little increase or impact on the relevant Sport in that area.

melbourne storm in the nrl are a very good example with good crowds and great success, however after close to 25 years they still have no Victorian players and there is no growth in the local leagues.

I wouldn't be so quick to say that there's no growth in the local leagues.  The Melbourne Rugby League entry in Wikipedia shows that 14 of the 17 clubs were founded since the Storm were admitted into the NRL and something like half of its defunct clubs started after then too.  Even if we assume that the defunct clubs whose foundation year isn't listed started before the advent of the Storm, that still means that the Melbourne RL has basically doubled in size since the Storm came on the scene and stimulated local growth in the sport.  If instead some or all of those also came after the Storm's arrival on the scene that would mean that the local league has more than doubled in since during that time.

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31 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

I wouldn't be so quick to say that there's no growth in the local leagues.  The Melbourne Rugby League entry in Wikipedia shows that 14 of the 17 clubs were founded since the Storm were admitted into the NRL and something like half of its defunct clubs started after then too.  Even if we assume that the defunct clubs whose foundation year isn't listed started before the advent of the Storm, that still means that the Melbourne RL has basically doubled in size since the Storm came on the scene and stimulated local growth in the sport.  If instead some or all of those also came after the Storm's arrival on the scene that would mean that the local league has more than doubled in since during that time.

The Victorian Rugby League (now known as NRL Victoria, I know not why) started in 1952, a lot of clubs are not listed in the Wiki article, and a lot have gone defunct, more than listed. I do not think that overall there has been that much of an increase over 25 years.

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Has anyone seen a calculation of how much the buyer will have to pay in back pay if he is allowed to say in SL? Genuine question because he will need deep pockets for SBW alone. I did notice in one of his interviews, he was very careful to say he would pay the players but didn't mention other staff/suppliers - does anyone know who/how much might be owed to them?

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3 minutes ago, RugbyFan99 said:

Has anyone seen a calculation of how much the buyer will have to pay in back pay if he is allowed to say in SL? Genuine question because he will need deep pockets for SBW alone. I did notice in one of his interviews, he was very careful to say he would pay the players but didn't mention other staff/suppliers - does anyone know who/how much might be owed to them?

Bob Hunter did say creditors were popping up all over so it's taking them time to investigate them all. Might be one of the things SL is concerned about.

As for backwages I have seen £1 million tossed about. SWB's deal is different as he has equity in the club.

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On 05/10/2020 at 11:32, The Rocket said:

I think you`re being a bit harsh Jim,  Elstone is doing what he`s paid to do and that is go over with this with a fine tooth comb.

When the first submission was made last week Elstone said he was disappointed, which I took as meaning the bid wasn`t up to scratch financially. Now I am reading "most of these..... are understood to be supplementary financial questions". This suggests to me that his initial disappointment may have not been with the financial side of the bid at all.. Which I always thought as the crucial issue especially given the financial constraints faced by SL.

 Perhaps Elstone`s initial disappointment was initially to do with the second part of the statement, i.e. contingency plans with regards the pandemic continuing.

I would see this as a positive sign for the bid getting the green light.

There's a stranglehold of reduction at the moment and I think the decision's already been made. And Who's Jim?

2 warning points:kolobok_dirol:  Non-Political

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Maybe so, what is your take on actually 'expanding' the game in Canada, do you think it will ever grow over if just left alone without insisting on a development programme.

Are you gulable enough to believe Perez "we want 10 homegrown player's representing the Aces" It will take the same course as Toronto.

Development of RL in Canada will never grow if just left to its own devices, there has to be commitment from the top, something Mr Argyles never seemed keen on, wonder what the new guys view is? Maybe if he wants his relegation exemption he has to commit to funding a real development programme, then see how he reacts?

As for 10 homegrown players representing the Aces, they could put 10 locals out in a preseason trial game, then cut 80% of them, not unusual in NA sports, or is that too cynical?

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4 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

Totally agree H, but will not happen without the professional organisation of the Wolfpack and Aces at the top 

But you want a one way passport with no exit clause, sorry I can not get away from it being a sporting contest if you're in it to win it you should also be prepared to lose it ............... who ever you are, be it the Canadians, the French, even your club when it was possible they could suffer jeapordy, the clamour on these pages that it should not be allowed to happen was disgraceful, if over a season you prove not good enough, tough.

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21 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

But you want a one way passport with no exit clause, sorry I can not get away from it being a sporting contest if you're in it to win it you should also be prepared to lose it ............... who ever you are, be it the Canadians, the French, even your club when it was possible they could suffer jeapordy, the clamour on these pages that it should not be allowed to happen was disgraceful, if over a season you prove not good enough, tough.

But Harry you were singing a bit of a different tune when the Wolfpack won League 1 and then Championship and was promoted both times...You can't have it both ways.

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