Kayakman Posted October 20, 2020 Share Posted October 20, 2020 6 minutes ago, Robin Evans said: As I said, you nor I have all the info to make such an informed decision, so we will maintain the lines we've all taken thus far. The info is NOT out there for our perusal as you suggest.... One hopes the next presentation is a decent effort and not the half ar sed one that was served up last time. Again, this does not instill confidence fella. It will all work out Robin; don't worry be happy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kayakman Posted October 20, 2020 Share Posted October 20, 2020 Hit that gas! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Evans Posted October 20, 2020 Share Posted October 20, 2020 6 minutes ago, Kayakman said: It will all work out Robin; don't worry be happy! I'm sure it will for SL. Whether TWP are in it is at best 50/50 for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
binosh Posted October 20, 2020 Share Posted October 20, 2020 TWP don't even have a team, the only players still there are there because they have a thinly veiled hope that loyalty will get them some of the backdated wages they are owed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIWIT Posted October 20, 2020 Share Posted October 20, 2020 7 minutes ago, binosh said: TWP don't even have a team, the only players still there are there because they have a thinly veiled hope that loyalty will get them some of the backdated wages they are owed. TWP players have always been free to sign with any other club for this season. That would not affect the money they are owed by TWP. Some have but many haven't simply because a) they looked after their money and no one offered them a better financial package than TWP, or b) they just aren't good enough, as has been pointed out here many times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Evans Posted October 20, 2020 Share Posted October 20, 2020 17 minutes ago, binosh said: TWP don't even have a team, the only players still there are there because they have a thinly veiled hope that loyalty will get them some of the backdated wages they are owed. And you know this how? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Man of Kent Posted October 20, 2020 Share Posted October 20, 2020 Kiss of death from Mick Gledhill? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
binosh Posted October 20, 2020 Share Posted October 20, 2020 4 hours ago, Robin Evans said: And you know this how? One of the North West based English players. The minute they are paid (if ever, 5 months and counting) they are off on the deals that have been agreed elsewhere in principle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
binosh Posted October 20, 2020 Share Posted October 20, 2020 4 hours ago, TIWIT said: TWP players have always been free to sign with any other club for this season. That would not affect the money they are owed by TWP. Some have but many haven't simply because a) they looked after their money and no one offered them a better financial package than TWP, or b) they just aren't good enough, as has been pointed out here many times. Describe to me a better financial package when they are getting **** all currently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeytherRob Posted October 20, 2020 Share Posted October 20, 2020 4 hours ago, TIWIT said: TWP players have always been free to sign with any other club for this season. That would not affect the money they are owed by TWP. Some have but many haven't simply because a) they looked after their money and no one offered them a better financial package than TWP, or b) they just aren't good enough, as has been pointed out here many times. So it's the players fault is it? What a terrible take. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Evans Posted October 20, 2020 Share Posted October 20, 2020 3 minutes ago, LeytherRob said: So it's the players fault is it? What a terrible take. Yup..... I think this was established about 50 pages back. I couldn't fathom it then either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIWIT Posted October 20, 2020 Share Posted October 20, 2020 1 hour ago, LeytherRob said: So it's the players fault is it? What a terrible take. Interesting inference from what I said. Consider the current Covid crisis. Many businesses can't pay their rent. Do their landlords kick them out and get nothing or continue on in the hopes that something can be worked out when things pick up? Of course the players should be paid their wages but they hardly are the only people in that situation. Do you guys think all the TWP players were living paycheque to paycheque? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Evans Posted October 20, 2020 Share Posted October 20, 2020 3 minutes ago, TIWIT said: Interesting inference from what I said. Consider the current Covid crisis. Many businesses can't pay their rent. Do their landlords kick them out and get nothing or continue on in the hopes that something can be worked out when things pick up? My lads landlords will most definitely kick him out of the premises if he can't trade They've made no secret of that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Evans Posted October 20, 2020 Share Posted October 20, 2020 4 minutes ago, TIWIT said: Do you guys think all the TWP players were living paycheque to paycheque? That's irrelevant. They are due money. How they live their lives is of no consequence. They have a right to what they are due. I can see how loyalty and faith in twp is lacking if this train of thought is representative of all at twp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIWIT Posted October 20, 2020 Share Posted October 20, 2020 2 minutes ago, Robin Evans said: That's irrelevant. They are due money. How they live their lives is of no consequence. They have a right to what they are due. I can see how loyalty and faith in twp is lacking if this train of thought is representative of all at twp And I can't see any point in attempting to discuss this point with you. Haters gonna hate no matter what. I do hope SL let's TWP back in if only to drive the haters nuts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeytherRob Posted October 20, 2020 Share Posted October 20, 2020 22 minutes ago, TIWIT said: Interesting inference from what I said. Consider the current Covid crisis. Many businesses can't pay their rent. Do their landlords kick them out and get nothing or continue on in the hopes that something can be worked out when things pick up? Of course the players should be paid their wages but they hardly are the only people in that situation. Do you guys think all the TWP players were living paycheque to paycheque? Any time there is any criticism toward the failure to pay players the money owed you deflect to the players either not being good enough or not managing their money effectively. I don't need to infer anything because you've done it repeatedly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Evans Posted October 20, 2020 Share Posted October 20, 2020 20 minutes ago, TIWIT said: And I can't see any point in attempting to discuss this point with you. Haters gonna hate no matter what. I do hope SL let's TWP back in if only to drive the haters nuts. Err.... link to my hatred???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quolls2020 Posted October 20, 2020 Share Posted October 20, 2020 1 hour ago, TIWIT said: Interesting inference from what I said. Consider the current Covid crisis. Many businesses can't pay their rent. Do their landlords kick them out and get nothing or continue on in the hopes that something can be worked out when things pick up? Of course the players should be paid their wages but they hardly are the only people in that situation. Do you guys think all the TWP players were living paycheque to paycheque? appears some are having difficulty: Food hampers are being delivered to the Toronto Wolfpack squad from their Super League counterparts to ensure they are fed while they continue to be... View the full article Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldbear Posted October 20, 2020 Share Posted October 20, 2020 20 hours ago, Kayakman said: Alot has changed since Bob Hunter (a pro) was brought in, thats for sure. Keeping Hunter could be crucial, TWP needs as much professional off the field help that they can find. On another note I was thinking last night about they way owners of clubs in NA operate and comparing that to the UK and European model. Over here owners usually get involved to either make a lot of money or get a nice tax write off. In addition they like to influence the direction of the sport. I’m not sure that with those objectives there will ever be a good fit with NA owners operating in a more traditional UK sporting set up. In the case of any NA RL team the only way it’s ever going to wash its face is if they can land a good TV deal, and sponsorships by NA companies on the back of that deal. To get the TV deal you need viewers, lots of them, now Canada has a smallish population but thankfully lots like to watch sports, however they want their teams to be competitive. The US has a huge population (OK a little less huge since Covid came to town, thanks to the orange one) but they have no or minimal rugby awareness and definitely lose interest if they don’t win, also American owners tend to be the most disruptive in trying to get their own way. In summary I would love RL to get a foothold in Canada, but I do think the US would be a waste of time, soccer has taken decades to where it is now, and it has a ready made audience of millions of Latinos and European immigrants. Going back to Canada the RFL/SL has to be honest and ask what does it really want from Canada and if the answer is a big bag of $ then forget it. If however it is part of a planned expansion strategy then the RFL/SL/Canada RL and the Canadian pro clubs have to formulate a strategy to cover where domestic players will come from, how can they be developed to pro standard, how the plan will be funded and even consider offering incentives to the pro clubs to get them to seriously recruit and play Canadians (like a salary cap exemption once they have played x games). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Tonks Sidestep Posted October 20, 2020 Share Posted October 20, 2020 Hunter joined TWP around Aug 2019, a few months later they stopped paying their players. So much for him improving professionalism there...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldbear Posted October 20, 2020 Share Posted October 20, 2020 49 minutes ago, Les Tonks Sidestep said: Hunter joined TWP around Aug 2019, a few months later they stopped paying their players. So much for him improving professionalism there...... Although remember the common denominator was Argyle, I got the impression that Hunter was an advisor under Argyle and maybe he will be more under new owners, who hopefully will actually listen. See my earlier post though in that the style of club ownership over here does sort of worry me, owners here seem to be in it to either make lots of money (not happening with rugby of either code here), or to have a convenient tax write off (probably what got Argyle into the sport to start with, till Covid screwed his other businesses meaning he didn’t need the write off any more), a few are genuine fans, sadly they also like to interfere too much (see Jerry Jones at Dallas Cowboys). They don’t really care much about fans (hence why teams get relocated), suppliers (they often push those as far as they dare) and players (often seen as just commodities here, moved on when it suits and not treated too well when they get hurt). Hopefully I’m wrong and TWP and Ottawa will have caring, ethical owners, but those kind of guys don’t usually get to be mega rich (the late Paul Allen at Seattle Seahawks and Sounders was a rare example, his sister Jody, the new owner, seems to be from the same mould thankfully) and mega rich guys (which are what NA sports club owners usually are) are not known for their ethics and altruism. I know some say the hard nosed business approach that NA owners bring to sports is what RL needs if it wants to be a major player, but remember it comes with downsides and people should sometimes be careful in what they wish for. TWP and Ottawa need owners that yes are rich, but also buy into a vision of growing and developing the sport and also the patience to stick around for the long haul. I don’t know the identity of the Ottawa backers so obviously can’t comment there, but I hope the RFL has done due diligence there, so the question now has to be does this description apply to LiVolsi or not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kayakman Posted October 20, 2020 Share Posted October 20, 2020 You've got alot right Oldbear but miss a few points....I've been to all of the home games and the crowd would, indeed, support a losing or struggling side, home gate will never be a problem. The question is, of course, how much can a strong homegate carry?. The fan base is very strong with people from rugby countries. The club must quickly, or not so quickly, become a profitable business venture. Of course a good TV contract is the way forward...but the RL League people in England don't understand its a different game over here...even a modest TV contract could go along way. I fear that TWP will never be the giant cash cow some wish to milk but it can certainly become beneficial beachhead for SL in general.....there is a possibility of a bigger payoff in the future but it won't be immediate. Bob Hunter is a good operator, well known over here, and is the type of guy who can get things done and done properly (personal knowledge). It is very good to have him on board, remember one thing; he was trained by Jimmy Pattison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quolls2020 Posted October 21, 2020 Share Posted October 21, 2020 Where are they now. Wolfpack’s 2020 Gareth O’Brien Castleford Matty Russell Toronto Chase Stanley Toronto Ricky Leutele Melbourne Liam Kay Wakefield Joe Mellor Toronto Josh McCrone Toronto Adam Sidlow Toronto Andy Ackers Salford Anthony Mullally Carcassone Andrew Dixon Toronto Bodene Thompson Leeds Jon Wilkin Toronto Darcy Lussick Toronto Gadwin Springer Toronto Tom Olbison Toronto Blake Wallace Leigh Brad Singleton Wigan Gary Wheeler Released James Cunningham Huddersfield Sonny Bill Williams Sydney Greg Worthington Featherstone Hakim Miloudi Palau Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldbear Posted October 21, 2020 Share Posted October 21, 2020 1 hour ago, Kayakman said: You've got alot right Oldbear but miss a few points....I've been to all of the home games and the crowd would, indeed, support a losing or struggling side, home gate will never be a problem. The question is, of course, how much can a strong homegate carry?. The fan base is very strong with people from rugby countries. The club must quickly, or not so quickly, become a profitable business venture. Of course a good TV contract is the way forward...but the RL League people in England don't understand its a different game over here...even a modest TV contract could go along way. I fear that TWP will never be the giant cash cow some wish to milk but it can certainly become beneficial beachhead for SL in general.....there is a possibility of a bigger payoff in the future but it won't be immediate. Bob Hunter is a good operator, well known over here, and is the type of guy who can get things done and done properly (personal knowledge). It is very good to have him on board, remember one thing; he was trained by Jimmy Pattison. It’s not the crowd at the stadium I’m worried about, I flew over from Vancouver to see TWP play Newcastle Thunder in the L1 playoffs and was impressed by the enthusiasm of the crowd and I know that I and the vast majority attending were paying customers, so that squashes some of the free ticket theories. My concern is that it’s the TV audience in wider Ontario and other rugby loving provinces like BC and Alberta will keep tuning in to see wins or close losses in competitive games, but if they are served up too many Saints or Leeds blow outs like this season then they will soon reach for the off button. To get a good TV deal (please not on Sportsnet World ghetto), TWP will need TV viewers in these places, they can’t survive on selling out Lamport, the capacity is under 10,000 and ticket prices are low by Canadian pro sport standards (and need to be to attract families). Yes the TV deal is for Canadian clubs to be able to wash their own faces, not anyone else, at least in the short term. I have confidence in Bob Hunter, anyone from Jimmys stable is going to be business savvy (says he after returning from Save on Foods, another part of Jimmys empire), I just hope the new owner will listen to him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldbear Posted October 21, 2020 Share Posted October 21, 2020 8 minutes ago, Quolls2020 said: Where are they now. Wolfpack’s 2020 Gareth O’Brien Castleford Matty Russell Toronto Chase Stanley Toronto Ricky Leutele Melbourne Liam Kay Wakefield Joe Mellor Toronto Josh McCrone Toronto Adam Sidlow Toronto Andy Ackers Salford Anthony Mullally Carcassone Andrew Dixon Toronto Bodene Thompson Leeds Jon Wilkin Toronto Darcy Lussick Toronto Gadwin Springer Toronto Tom Olbison Toronto Blake Wallace Leigh Brad Singleton Wigan Gary Wheeler Released James Cunningham Huddersfield Sonny Bill Williams Sydney Greg Worthington Featherstone Hakim Miloudi Palau This is why deferral to 2022 might be a smart move. Not so many players left and some of those have looked less than sparkling in SL, plus there’s no way Wilkin can be counted on for 2021, given his age and recent injuries. A major rebuilding exercise has to be on the cards, the good thing is McDermott (assuming he stays too), or his replacement will at least be able to choose his squad rather than having someone else’s. The downside is a proper rebuild cannot be rushed, and many prospective signings may need greater reassurance about the financials and off field organization (no more visa fiascos please) before they sign. Giving TWP an extra 12 months improves the chance of them being competitive in SL (let’s face it that’s what TV wants, a competitive league where most games get decided in the final quarter, not first half blow outs), plus it just allows more time for clarification regarding international travel. Now if SL can’t wait till 2022 (and I think they can), then there’s a potential problem. If LiVolsi can’t wait till 2022 we need to know why and ask what his true motive is. I just don’t see anyway that TWP will be anything like ready for a 2021 start which is less than 6 months away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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