The General 'Toronto Wolfpack' Discussion Thread

[bobbruce]

On 25/01/2020 at 12:54, Lowdesert said:

My question was really about spending on a stronger squad and not on an individual.  SBW could be injured and out of it in one game but spending on some stronger players throughout the squad might just keep them in the league.  It seems the opposite has been the focus and I don’t think that’s a model adopted by any other club.

 

 

That doesn’t work as has been pointed out money isn’t the issue salary cap space is. So effectively TWP could’ve signed two run of the mill players on £75k each or SBW with all the publicity that has brought them. 

[JDINTHEHIZZOUSE]

22 minutes ago, Smudger06 said:

Post opinions as fact......get challenged. It really is that simple. 

Its weird you are never wrong, ever....about anything. 

 

well,he cant spell information!

[TheLegendOfTexEvans]

3 hours ago, aj1908 said:

I thought they shouldve won that game 

They don't seem that bad to me and Salford were the grand finalists even without Hastings 

The wolfpack will settle into super league They are used to dominating games.  

Until a few months in the season it's too early to say how their season will go 

I would say Salford are not going to be the same team without Hastings. 

Will be relived they beat Toronto as Watson rebuilds Salford. 

He has an eye for talent wont be surprised if we see the reserves produce a few interesting players in the long term.

Didn't watch the game so cant really comment too much on the game.

Playing in the lower leagues can give you a false confidence you can play garbage Rugby and still win.

Error count is sometimes that stat you need to judge rather than the winning score when getting promoted.

But I still think its far too early in the season to write any team off completely.

 

 

[Dave T]

21 minutes ago, bobbruce said:

That doesn’t work as has been pointed out money isn’t the issue salary cap space is. So effectively TWP could’ve signed two run of the mill players on £75k each or SBW with all the publicity that has brought them. 

That's not quite true. By signing SBW he forced the salary of one of their other marquee players to count on the cap in full. This could have been a further few hundred grand of cap value. 

They have managed the cap poorly. 

[aj1908]

6 minutes ago, TheLegendOfTexEvans said:

I would say Salford are not going to be the same team without Hastings. 

Will be relived they beat Toronto as Watson rebuilds Salford. 

He has an eye for talent wont be surprised if we see the reserves produce a few interesting players in the long term.

Didn't watch the game so cant really comment too much on the game.

Playing in the lower leagues can give you a false confidence you can play garbage Rugby and still win.

Error count is sometimes that stat you need to judge rather than the winning score when getting promoted.

But I still think its far too early in the season to write any team off completely.

 

 

Toronto are playing touch rugby.  They wete offloading just about every tackle sometimes multiple times 

 

[Smudger06]

9 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

It's not an opinion it is fact.

Which one of the current crop of facts? 

Toronto's number of home games in the NRL lol ! (We are not deciding for no apparent reason that the NRL are scrapping Magic Weekend, merely highlighting that currently & factually it's a 2 year deal, this the last year of that deal and nothing else is in place currently as a matter of fact.) 

That SL NEED 12 Shareholders? We are not imagining anything at all, they do not need 12 Shareholders. 

David Hughes is not and never was a shareholder of SLE, only RL Clubs can be ordinary shareholders, David Hughes is not a RL Club as far as I am aware, he's a man, therefore not entitled to hold a Share. Not that I've ever mentioned David Hughes anyway! 

[Les Tonks Sidestep]

16 hours ago, Dave T said:

The 2020 operational rules were online yesterday, looks like they were updated this week. 

Didn't show up for me! Always worth a look to see what's (often subtly) changed.

[Smudger06]

Just now, scotchy1 said:

Ok,

So we are agreed, the NRL has 11 home games. 

if right now SLe has issued 12 shares. Without consolidation and without issuing new shares, and with the limit of 1 share per shareholder, how does SLe not require 12 shareholders?

David Hughes was and is a shareholder and director of SLe ltd. If you want to pretend that david Hughes doesnt own something his wholly owned business owns then go ahead but it would be silly

No the NRL has 12 home games! the NRL has 25 rounds, 12 home games & 12 away games + 1 bye. (Half the teams agreed to hold 1 of their home games at suncorp stadium in 2019 & 2020.) The other half don't. 

We don't know what's happened regarding shares since the 18th December. So no point making up facts. 

A director and a shareholder are two different things, for one thing a director can be a man and a shareholder of SL just can't be.......

[TheLegendOfTexEvans]

45 minutes ago, aj1908 said:

Toronto are playing touch rugby.  They wete offloading just about every tackle sometimes multiple times 

 

But is this because they lack any real halfback play and attacking moves.  

Less is more sometimes.

 

[aj1908]

6 minutes ago, TheLegendOfTexEvans said:

But is this because they lack any real halfback play and attacking moves.  

Less is more sometimes.

 

mccrone isnt that bad lol.

everybody was trying to offload.

hardly any carries straight up the middle.

SBW is still trying every play to get a miracle ball away, and he did a few.  he didnt look like he could bust the line with his strength, unike the 14 from salford.

is this amount of offloading normal in super league i havent watched a game in ten years.  an nrl coach would have a fit of rage is his team were passing like that inside their quarter.

if i had to pinpoint id say they need their forwards to just play straight with the ball tucked up under the jumper.  no offloads in their half

there was a winger from toronto, dark guy, he caught the eye as well.

[Dave T]

50 minutes ago, Les Tonks Sidestep said:

Didn't show up for me! Always worth a look to see what's (often subtly) changed.

I stumbled across it can't find the link using mobile! 

[Les Tonks Sidestep]

8 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I stumbled across it can't find the link using mobile! 

Finally found them here: https://www.rugby-league.com/flipbooks/2020-operational-rules-tiers-1-3/mobile/index.html#p=1 - not quite as easy to find as in previous years.

Looks as though they confirm the 1 DR only upwards and Toronto is classed as being one of the 'core areas', so no dispensations on that front.

[TheLegendOfTexEvans]

33 minutes ago, aj1908 said:

mccrone isnt that bad lol.

everybody was trying to offload.

hardly any carries straight up the middle.

SBW is still trying every play to get a miracle ball away, and he did a few.  he didnt look like he could bust the line with his strength, unike the 14 from salford.

is this amount of offloading normal in super league i havent watched a game in ten years.  an nrl coach would have a fit of rage is his team were passing like that inside their quarter.

if i had to pinpoint id say they need their forwards to just play straight with the ball tucked up under the jumper.  no offloads in their half

there was a winger from toronto, dark guy, he caught the eye as well.

I would say typically no for offloading, Super League is normally a bit on the boring side.

You definitely don't offload in your own quarter.

Castleford v Toronto was a genuinely entertaining game to watch.

Hence my preference to watch the lower leagues or amateur.

I am assuming the highlights will be on youtube later today.

 

 

[aj1908]

1 minute ago, TheLegendOfTexEvans said:

I would say typically no for offloading, Super League is normally a bit on the boring side.

You definitely don't offload in your own quarter.

Castleford v Toronto was a genuinely entertaining game to watch.

Hence my preference to watch the lower leagues or amateur.

I am assuming the highlights will be on youtube later today.

 

 

yesterday, i think at least twice, they passed the ball from dummy half out to the centre or winger inside their quarter (3 passes).  no respect at all for field position. anywhere on the field they would try for an offload.

[Smudger06]

46 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

Moving on from smudgers strange attempts to find a point.

Why arent Toronto currently showing as shareholders and why havent they appointed a director?

Did david hughes attend the meeting last week? Do toronto get a vote? Do london?

The articles of association state that each entity who owns a share shall nominate a director and shall enter a club in SL

Despite the imaginations of some, that hasnt happend so far. Why not?

No, 1st explain to me how there's only 11 home games in the NRL when:

Brisbane Broncos have 12 Games at Suncorp Stadium, Brisbane.

Newcastle Knights have 12 Games at McDonald Jones Stadium, Newcastle

North Queensland Cowboys have 12 Games at Queensland Country Bank Stadium, Townsville

During the Telstra Premiership draw (regular season).

Surely that would be impossible in your factual 11 home Game NRL.

&

If Company Directorship is directly linked to shareholding in your world how on earth are Chris Brindley & Rob Elstone company directors?

Do we not think that London Rugby League Limited would have a seriously winnable case against SLE Ltd when 'all ordinary shareholders shall be entitled to, and shall, compete in the Super League' ?

Classic scotchy modus operandi, belittle and ridicule questioners with his favorite keywords such as strange & weird then swiftly bury his mistakes & errors a few pages back.

Anyway, I'm out on this thread, the other contributors are sick of it, can't blame em. 

[kiwis 13 6]

Read the article on front page of this site about Toronto getting dispensation to sign 2 Canadian under 21 players. Looks like former player Quin Ngawati will be one of the signings I hope the other has at least played 7's or age grade rugby union for Canada. 25 players is bare minimum needed for squad. The CEO, Mcdermott & Noble were all at TWP in 2019 and knew that promotion to Super League was highly likely for the 2020 season. How they allowed TWP to spend the full salary cap on a squad of 22 players + 1 Marquee signing for 2020 season is just ridiculous! Anyway its A good call by Super League to Allow TWP dispensation to sign 2 Canadian players under the age of 21.

[ojx]

1 hour ago, kiwis 13 6 said:

Read the article on front page of this site about Toronto getting dispensation to sign 2 Canadian under 21 players. Looks like former player Quin Ngawati will be one of the signings I hope the other has at least played 7's or age grade rugby union for Canada. 25 players is bare minimum needed for squad. The CEO, Mcdermott & Noble were all at TWP in 2019 and knew that promotion to Super League was highly likely for the 2020 season. How they allowed TWP to spend the full salary cap on a squad of 22 players + 1 Marquee signing for 2020 season is just ridiculous! Anyway its A good call by Super League to Allow TWP dispensation to sign 2 Canadian players under the age of 21.

I think this is a good outcome. TWP need to be forced to get young Canadian players involved. They have not been able to achieve this otherwise.

[Lowdesert]

5 hours ago, ojx said:

I think this is a good outcome. TWP need to be forced to get young Canadian players involved. They have not been able to achieve this otherwise.

This would be good all round but it doesnt really answer TWPs need for SL standard squad players and their ability to buy them.

It is far from easy to create a 'player' for this level.  Hull FC have Myers on trial (from the Army) and although he is a good standard, he is far from close to the 1st team squad.  Granted, TWPs squad is not a thick in quality as Hulls but its still a big step.

[Dave T]

6 hours ago, kiwis 13 6 said:

The CEO, Mcdermott & Noble were all at TWP in 2019 and knew that promotion to Super League was highly likely for the 2020 season. How they allowed TWP to spend the full salary cap on a squad of 22 players + 1 Marquee signing for 2020 season is just ridiculous! 

Indeed.

TWP already had their two marquee slots, I believe by Lussick and Leutele, let's assume that they were on £3-400k, according to the reports around at the time.

So, before they signed SBW, they had 22 players, and a maximum spend of £1.7-£1.8m (versus a cap of £2.1m) - so they had £3-400k to recruit three players to fill their squad. We know those sums work out because when they signed SBW, one of their other marquee's had their salary included, so they must have had this amount available on the cap. 

So instead of filling their squad with three decent players on £100k+ each, they went down the route of signing another marquee player, meaning they are now spending a silly amount of cap space on either Lussick or Leutele. It is easy to see why the other clubs lack sympathy here. This wasn't an unfortunate balancing of books gone wrong, they actively made this decision to go down this route and spend up with 23 players. And then ask for more. Now I am supportive of a higher cap based on the things I have previously highlighted (weighting and youth dispensation) but let's not make out that TWP have 23 players because they had to pay over the odds for Matty Russell. They had 23 players because they chose to sign a 3rd marquee when they already had 2. That is poor squad management. 

The signing of SBW should be applauded, hopefully it encourages other clubs to be more bold with signings in future, but it has come at the expense of being able to sign a full squad. That is a hell of a brave move.

[fevtom]

I did post something on the Toronto forum last year warning that this would happen when they overpay mediocre players. They should've been able to get promotion on half the budget leaving them room for signings this year or at least made sure there was something in the contracts that let them cut the bill. They took that risk to get a quick promotion and time will tell if it will pay off. 

If they stay up (which I think they will) then you would expect them to improve year on year as they offload the substandard players.

[aj1908]

2 hours ago, Dave T said:

Indeed.

TWP already had their two marquee slots, I believe by Lussick and Leutele, let's assume that they were on £3-400k, according to the reports around at the time.

So, before they signed SBW, they had 22 players, and a maximum spend of £1.7-£1.8m (versus a cap of £2.1m) - so they had £3-400k to recruit three players to fill their squad. We know those sums work out because when they signed SBW, one of their other marquee's had their salary included, so they must have had this amount available on the cap. 

So instead of filling their squad with three decent players on £100k+ each, they went down the route of signing another marquee player, meaning they are now spending a silly amount of cap space on either Lussick or Leutele. It is easy to see why the other clubs lack sympathy here. This wasn't an unfortunate balancing of books gone wrong, they actively made this decision to go down this route and spend up with 23 players. And then ask for more. Now I am supportive of a higher cap based on the things I have previously highlighted (weighting and youth dispensation) but let's not make out that TWP have 23 players because they had to pay over the odds for Matty Russell. They had 23 players because they chose to sign a 3rd marquee when they already had 2. That is poor squad management. 

The signing of SBW should be applauded, hopefully it encourages other clubs to be more bold with signings in future, but it has come at the expense of being able to sign a full squad. That is a hell of a brave move.

yes this is all true.  it looks like very bad list management by the pack.  spending too much to ensure they got promoted 

overpaying for average nrl players

[londonbronco]

2 hours ago, Dave T said:

......so instead of filling their squad with three decent players on £100k+ each, they went down the route of signing another marquee player, meaning they are now spending a silly amount of cap space on either Lussick or Leutele......

That's not quite right.  TWP have used the ‘New Talent Pool Dispensation’ clause. This states: “Any Player who has not previously played Rugby League in the 5 years prior to signing is given a value of £0 in the first year of his contract and at 50% of his true value in the second year.”

[Dave T]

7 minutes ago, londonbronco said:

That's not quite right.  TWP have used the ‘New Talent Pool Dispensation’ clause. This states: “Any Player who has not previously played Rugby League in the 5 years prior to signing is given a value of £0 in the first year of his contract and at 50% of his true value in the second year.”

Incorrect I'm afraid. You have merged the new talent and returning player dispensations:

New Talent Pool Dispensation – Any Player who has not previously played Rugby League is given a value of £0 in the first year of his contract and at 50% of his true value in the second year.

- Returning Talent Pool Dispensation – Any Player who has not previously played Rugby League in the 5 years prior to signing is given a value of 50% of his true value in the first year of his contract and 75% of his true value in the second year.

[fevtom]

1 hour ago, Dave T said:

Incorrect I'm afraid. You have merged the new talent and returning player dispensations:

New Talent Pool Dispensation – Any Player who has not previously played Rugby League is given a value of £0 in the first year of his contract and at 50% of his true value in the second year.

- Returning Talent Pool Dispensation – Any Player who has not previously played Rugby League in the 5 years prior to signing is given a value of 50% of his true value in the first year of his contract and 75% of his true value in the second year.

So can SBW count under the returning talent dispensation and be a marquee player at the same time?

Edit - Obviously that would mean if he was still counted as a marquee player then TWP aren't gaining anything from the new talent / returning talent dispensation.

[Les Tonks Sidestep]

7 minutes ago, fevtom said:

So can SBW count under the returning talent dispensation and be a marquee player at the same time?

No, one or the other.