Bob8 Posted April 23, 2020 Share Posted April 23, 2020 Just now, gingerjon said: Like construction, the issue would be less the game of golf itself than, for example, making sure the flags were clean and nobody was hanging around in the 19th hole afterwards. But it would be manageable. The other issue is that it gets into complicated issues. "Stay home" is a simple message. "Stay home, unless it is essential" is already getting nuanced. "Stay home, unless it is essential or to play something that can be safe like golf but no socialising afterwards" is getting too complex. "You clearly have never met Bob8 then, he's like a veritable Bryan Ferry of RL." - Johnoco 19 Jul 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerjon Posted April 23, 2020 Share Posted April 23, 2020 Just now, Bob8 said: The other issue is that it gets into complicated issues. "Stay home" is a simple message. "Stay home, unless it is essential" is already getting nuanced. "Stay home, unless it is essential or to play something that can be safe like golf but no socialising afterwards" is getting too complex. "If you do go out, always stay 2m apart from anyone who is not from your household" You change the message to make the part you want to be clear, clear. Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnM Posted April 23, 2020 Share Posted April 23, 2020 You can't trust peoples discretion, though. The nearest analogy is with speed limits. Some drivers are better than others, some cars are better than others. Some drivers have better reactions than others. Practically all drivers and riders think they are better than others. It seems that it might be OK to drive at 130 mph on the M1 at 2 am as its quiet, no commuters, no white vans with drivers texting their mates etc. The speed limit is there to protect the vast majority of drivers not to repress the Lewis Hamiltons of the country. Same with the lockdown. It might feel like house arrest to some, but breaching it is a recipe for infection. MoK might behave responsibly but not everyone does so might easily end up as a carrier. You Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob8 Posted April 23, 2020 Share Posted April 23, 2020 10 minutes ago, gingerjon said: "If you do go out, always stay 2m apart from anyone who is not from your household" You change the message to make the part you want to be clear, clear. Indeed. But, it is difficult to police as it might not be clear who approached whom. To boost immunity, we should be getting sunshine and fresh air, but there is a reason that message has not been pushed. "You clearly have never met Bob8 then, he's like a veritable Bryan Ferry of RL." - Johnoco 19 Jul 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silverback Posted April 23, 2020 Share Posted April 23, 2020 (MoK might behave responsibly,) Naaaaaaaaa, not having that,he wants to throw us old duffers on a pile and go have a kickabout with his buddys in pub carpark, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerjon Posted April 23, 2020 Share Posted April 23, 2020 7 minutes ago, Bob8 said: Indeed. But, it is difficult to police as it might not be clear who approached whom. To boost immunity, we should be getting sunshine and fresh air, but there is a reason that message has not been pushed. Fair. I have a nice garden and live in a reasonably low density area where exercising with social distancing is a doddle. So the need to open up golf courses and the like does not affect me directly. Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjonn Posted April 23, 2020 Share Posted April 23, 2020 1 hour ago, gingerjon said: I ate some biscuits and thought about going for a run. well I did my bit..for my waist line - only ate one croissant and put the other on the side for tomorrow... (all freshly delivered today from local bakery) trouble is I can see it while I type and even if in cupboard I know its there... not sure about my willpower.. the missus will need to stand on guard with rolling pin me thinks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted April 23, 2020 Share Posted April 23, 2020 47 minutes ago, JohnM said: You can't trust peoples discretion, though. The nearest analogy is with speed limits. Some drivers are better than others, some cars are better than others. Some drivers have better reactions than others. Practically all drivers and riders think they are better than others. It seems that it might be OK to drive at 130 mph on the M1 at 2 am as its quiet, no commuters, no white vans with drivers texting their mates etc. The speed limit is there to protect the vast majority of drivers not to repress the Lewis Hamiltons of the country. Same with the lockdown. It might feel like house arrest to some, but breaching it is a recipe for infection. MoK might behave responsibly but not everyone does so might easily end up as a carrier. You I think this is a big challenge, but ultimately it is one we are going to need to face into as we will not go from lockdown to everything being open in one go. I think much of the communication has been too wooly so far, we have seen some lengthy debates here about what we can and can't do, so I think it is important that the government consider this and make it as black and white as possible, accepting that there will still be grey areas. For example, there is still confusion about who is allowed to work. The answer is pretty much anyone! Obviously there are some businesses forced to close premises to customers, but pretty much any company is allowed to continue trading. Where I don't think they have been good enough is around insisting that if you are open you MUST have social distancing processes in place. We know some businesses and services can't do this but are continuing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damien Posted April 23, 2020 Share Posted April 23, 2020 13 minutes ago, redjonn said: well I did my bit..for my waist line - only ate one croissant and put the other on the side for tomorrow... (all freshly delivered today from local bakery) trouble is I can see it while I type and even if in cupboard I know its there... not sure about my willpower.. the missus will need to stand on guard with rolling pin me thinks Just eat it, you are fighting a losing battle the moment it crosses your mind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerjon Posted April 23, 2020 Share Posted April 23, 2020 58 minutes ago, silverback said: (MoK might behave responsibly,) Naaaaaaaaa, not having that,he wants to throw us old duffers on a pile and go have a kickabout with his buddys in pub carpark, Assume no lockdown, the disease can move free and easily. I believe they said something like 80% of all of us would catch it. On the most conservative reading of the death rate, you've just killed 11,000 people in the UK aged between 20 and 29. Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Man of Kent Posted April 23, 2020 Share Posted April 23, 2020 11 hours ago, ckn said: Not true, look at table 10 of p24 of this for the age groupings, weight groupings and illness groupings of people who died once in intensive care with this. 60+ seems like oldies to me. That figure won’t include care home deaths etc either. Pretty clear the elderly are the worst affected and the majority aren’t at a significant risk of death let alone a serious case of infection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ckn Posted April 23, 2020 Share Posted April 23, 2020 4 minutes ago, Man of Kent said: 60+ seems like oldies to me. That figure won’t include care home deaths etc either. Pretty clear the elderly are the worst affected and the majority aren’t at a significant risk of death let alone a serious case of infection. I take it you didn't read the bit I recommended then. "When in deadly danger, when beset by doubt; run in little circles, wave your arms and shout" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Man of Kent Posted April 23, 2020 Share Posted April 23, 2020 52 minutes ago, ckn said: I take it you didn't read the bit I recommended then. Page 10. Mean age 61.3, median 63. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnM Posted April 23, 2020 Share Posted April 23, 2020 What happens between being 59 years, 364 days, 23 hours 59 minutes and 59 seconds and 60 years? What about those who cross the international date line the wrong way? One moment they are OK and the next they are vulnerable oldies? Also, it seems that some people insist on following the science...until they of course know better. eg. WHO face mask advice vs "well, it stands to reason...." or "Germany makes it compulsory...." For anyone in any doubt about what compulsion means, all is made (un)clear in this BBC (non-political, I think) report: Even the type of mask is not consistently specified. Prime Minister Winfried Kretschmann of Baden-Württemberg has said medical masks should be reserved for health workers, while scarves or cloth covers would be sufficient for people on the street. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-52382196 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ckn Posted April 23, 2020 Share Posted April 23, 2020 4 minutes ago, Man of Kent said: Page 10. Mean age 61.3, median 63. So, half of the deaths are below those averages (mean, median as you see fit). Y'see my point? Edit: If the mean were around 75-80 then you may have a point, but certainly not at the early 60s. "When in deadly danger, when beset by doubt; run in little circles, wave your arms and shout" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Man of Kent Posted April 23, 2020 Share Posted April 23, 2020 4 minutes ago, ckn said: So, half of the deaths are below those averages (mean, median as you see fit). Y'see my point? Edit: If the mean were around 75-80 then you may have a point, but certainly not at the early 60s. How big is this sample? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ckn Posted April 23, 2020 Share Posted April 23, 2020 Just now, Man of Kent said: How big is this sample? Every patient in critical care in England, Wales and Northern Ireland. Scotland's systems aren't compatible with this study. Almost literally couldn't be bigger for those three countries. "When in deadly danger, when beset by doubt; run in little circles, wave your arms and shout" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Man of Kent Posted April 23, 2020 Share Posted April 23, 2020 14 minutes ago, ckn said: Every patient in critical care in England, Wales and Northern Ireland. Scotland's systems aren't compatible with this study. Almost literally couldn't be bigger for those three countries. Apart from all the deaths of people who didn’t receive critical care, yep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasper Posted April 23, 2020 Share Posted April 23, 2020 From yesterdays Metro:- A group of NHS nurses who performed the haka while chanting about ‘destroying’ coronavirus have apologised after being accused of cultural appropriation. At the end of the footage, one woman chants: ‘This is the message we wish to affirm, You’ll never beat us we hate you, you germ. Together we’ll triumph with the strength from within. Mankind will destroy you, mankind will win.’ The team have now apologised for the video after it was branded ‘blatant cultural abuse that is verging on being racist’ by Māori cultural advisor Karaitiana Taiuru, in New Zealand. Full story here - Metro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ckn Posted April 23, 2020 Share Posted April 23, 2020 27 minutes ago, JohnM said: What happens between being 59 years, 364 days, 23 hours 59 minutes and 59 seconds and 60 years? What about those who cross the international date line the wrong way? One moment they are OK and the next they are vulnerable oldies? Also, it seems that some people insist on following the science...until they of course know better. eg. WHO face mask advice vs "well, it stands to reason...." or "Germany makes it compulsory...." For anyone in any doubt about what compulsion means, all is made (un)clear in this BBC (non-political, I think) report: Even the type of mask is not consistently specified. Prime Minister Winfried Kretschmann of Baden-Württemberg has said medical masks should be reserved for health workers, while scarves or cloth covers would be sufficient for people on the street. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-52382196 This is the gold-standard lay analysis of the science around masks. Trisha is a serious expert in this subject and leads teams of researchers that report into the top levels of the NHS. Masks = good, although it should be face-coverings rather than face-masks for non-care workers. "When in deadly danger, when beset by doubt; run in little circles, wave your arms and shout" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ckn Posted April 23, 2020 Share Posted April 23, 2020 4 minutes ago, Man of Kent said: Apart from all the deaths of people who didn’t receive critical care, yep Yes, but... "When in deadly danger, when beset by doubt; run in little circles, wave your arms and shout" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ckn Posted April 23, 2020 Share Posted April 23, 2020 3 minutes ago, Jasper said: From yesterdays Metro:- A group of NHS nurses who performed the haka while chanting about ‘destroying’ coronavirus have apologised after being accused of cultural appropriation. At the end of the footage, one woman chants: ‘This is the message we wish to affirm, You’ll never beat us we hate you, you germ. Together we’ll triumph with the strength from within. Mankind will destroy you, mankind will win.’ The team have now apologised for the video after it was branded ‘blatant cultural abuse that is verging on being racist’ by Māori cultural advisor Karaitiana Taiuru, in New Zealand. Full story here - Metro There's some seriously miserable sods out there. Anyone who has worked in any stressful environment from the NHS, to police, to mining coal seams, to being a squaddie, and so on, will know that you have to release steam occasionally or you'll just lose it. Who does it harm? No-one. Posting on social media is a bit silly but in the grand scheme of things it's about as serious as leaving the milk out after you make tea. "When in deadly danger, when beset by doubt; run in little circles, wave your arms and shout" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Evans Posted April 23, 2020 Share Posted April 23, 2020 13 minutes ago, ckn said: There's some seriously miserable sods out there. Anyone who has worked in any stressful environment from the NHS, to police, to mining coal seams, to being a squaddie, and so on, will know that you have to release steam occasionally or you'll just lose it. Who does it harm? No-one. Posting on social media is a bit silly but in the grand scheme of things it's about as serious as leaving the milk out after you make tea. Jesus..... I'm never one to chelp on with the "PC gone made" rubbish. But this is absurd. It's not even remotely offensive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ckn Posted April 23, 2020 Share Posted April 23, 2020 2 minutes ago, Robin Evans said: Jesus..... I'm never one to chelp on with the "PC gone made" rubbish. But this is absurd. It's not even remotely offensive Have you seen the doughnutgate thing then? He's been the subject of sustained kicking from clinicians all over Twitter since yesterday "When in deadly danger, when beset by doubt; run in little circles, wave your arms and shout" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Evans Posted April 23, 2020 Share Posted April 23, 2020 1 minute ago, ckn said: Have you seen the doughnutgate thing then? He's been the subject of sustained kicking from clinicians all over Twitter since yesterday I despair. The world is changing. Folks are dying. Staff are exhausted and frightened. Someone puts a smile on our faces .... there's always some annoying person who massively overreacts..... He's made a bit of a #### out of himself.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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