coronavirus

[Bob8]

20 minutes ago, ckn said:

I’d rather there be consequences on non compliance, such as the ones I note about being banned from many places, than having medical treatments forced on them against their will. 

That is a grey area.

The difference between consequence and punishment is not clear cut.

[ckn]

5 minutes ago, Bob8 said:

That is a grey area.

The difference between consequence and punishment is not clear cut.

Not really for me. You can't walk around a shopping centre naked, so why should you be able to while you're presenting a health risk to others? The alternative is for them to isolate from the responsible and the vulnerable until there is no risk. Why should the vulnerable, who can't take the vaccine, suffer in isolation because a few irresponsible people who CAN take the vaccine choose to not do so.

[SSoutherner]

1 minute ago, ckn said:

Not really for me. You can't walk around a shopping centre naked, so why should you be able to while you're presenting a health risk to others? The alternative is for them to isolate from the responsible and the vulnerable until there is no risk. Why should the vulnerable, who can't take the vaccine, suffer in isolation because a few irresponsible people who CAN take the vaccine choose to not do so.

But we dont have that as the norm in uk law

 

Why can't i not ride my motorcycle without a helmet - that is me endangering me not me endangering others, what about seatbelts

 

And we have banned smoking indoors for the good of others health (such as bar staff)

 

If you break any of those laws you will suffer consequences, so why not make vaccine uptake mandatory

[Bob8]

30 minutes ago, ckn said:

Not really for me. You can't walk around a shopping centre naked, so why should you be able to while you're presenting a health risk to others? The alternative is for them to isolate from the responsible and the vulnerable until there is no risk. Why should the vulnerable, who can't take the vaccine, suffer in isolation because a few irresponsible people who CAN take the vaccine choose to not do so.

You can, but you will face the consequences.

The issue is whether those consequences are imposed formally by soceity or by nature (on a very cold day).

[ckn]

2 minutes ago, SSoutherner said:

But we dont have that as the norm in uk law

 

Why can't i not ride my motorcycle without a helmet - that is me endangering me not me endangering others, what about seatbelts

 

And we have banned smoking indoors for the good of others health (such as bar staff)

 

If you break any of those laws you will suffer consequences, so why not make vaccine uptake mandatory

No vaccine is risk free. Most people will get some consequences from it, even if just a sore injection site for a short period.

I look back to 1990 when we went for the Iraq War, we got all those vaccines in one day and many had long term consequences from them. From that alone, I won't force a vaccine on a person, especially a brand new one, but that doesn't mean they get to free run to act as a Typhoid Mary.

[SSoutherner]

12 minutes ago, ckn said:

No vaccine is risk free. Most people will get some consequences from it, even if just a sore injection site for a short period.

I look back to 1990 when we went for the Iraq War, we got all those vaccines in one day and many had long term consequences from them. From that alone, I won't force a vaccine on a person, especially a brand new one, but that doesn't mean they get to free run to act as a Typhoid Mary.

i am aware of that (my ex army mate was crippled by having to do a fitness route march thing the day after his injections which caused his cartilages to collapse amongst other things.

But either we are sure of the vaccine (by the point in time we get enough doses to do mass vaccination) and therefore need to get a huge % to take it to protect those that cant - or we may as well p*ss the money up the wall. I would only allow exemptions for those signed off by a Dr as unsuitable

[ckn]

15 minutes ago, SSoutherner said:

i am aware of that (my ex army mate was crippled by having to do a fitness route march thing the day after his injections which caused his cartilages to collapse amongst other things.

But either we are sure of the vaccine (by the point in time we get enough doses to do mass vaccination) and therefore need to get a huge % to take it to protect those that cant - or we may as well p*ss the money up the wall. I would only allow exemptions for those signed off by a Dr as unsuitable

We've a choice, take five years to make sure the vaccine is 100% safe, or rush it out and take the risk on it only being 99% safe. If we do the latter, we can't force it as otherwise we'd be hitting hundreds of thousands of people in the UK with significant consequences from the vaccine alone. That's why I believe the choice should be:

- Take the vaccine and get a "pass" to go into public spaces; or
- Decline the vaccine and effectively self-isolate in your little domestic bubble until COVID is declared gone from the UK.

The sole reason to get an exemption from that is if you have a genuine pre-existing health condition that would stop you getting the normal vaccines such as flu.

[SSoutherner]

4 minutes ago, ckn said:

We've a choice, take five years to make sure the vaccine is 100% safe, or rush it out and take the risk on it only being 99% safe. If we do the latter, we can't force it as otherwise we'd be hitting hundreds of thousands of people in the UK with significant consequences from the vaccine alone. That's why I believe the choice should be:

- Take the vaccine and get a "pass" to go into public spaces; or
- Decline the vaccine and effectively self-isolate in your little domestic bubble until COVID is declared gone from the UK.

The sole reason to get an exemption from that is if you have a genuine pre-existing health condition that would stop you getting the normal vaccines such as flu.

But if you did that you would basically need a digital national ID card and scanners or how would you Police it - a large number of people would just expect others to take the risk and protect them. 

[ckn]

1 hour ago, SSoutherner said:

But if you did that you would basically need a digital national ID card and scanners or how would you Police it - a large number of people would just expect others to take the risk and protect them. 

A simple vaccine card or vaccine exemption card that can be used to deny access by security guards or similar. The risk of fraud on it would be minimal.

It can be made context sensitive, e.g. flights, there's already the APIS system for terrorism checks that can be repurposed to a vaccine/exemption register. If I were to get on a flight knowing EVERYONE had passed that check then it would make me far happier to get on that flight.

[SSoutherner]

52 minutes ago, ckn said:

A simple vaccine card or vaccine exemption card that can be used to deny access by security guards or similar. The risk of fraud on it would be minimal.

It can be made context sensitive, e.g. flights, there's already the APIS system for terrorism checks that can be repurposed to a vaccine/exemption register. If I were to get on a flight knowing EVERYONE had passed that check then it would make me far happier to get on that flight.

So how about buying tickets to Magic Weekend - will everyone have to have photo ID to prove they are the person named on a ticket purchase, purchased individually and tracked against that database ? How about Thorpe Park or next years Cheltenham, what about the crowd outside a stadium if a team wins a big trophy, a BLM demonstration. or for that matter a queue at Antiques Roadshow or a local gig

 

The issues around managing a large number of unvaccinated people in a population of mainly vaccinated are huge - I reckon if you even get to 10% non adherence then unless the vaccine has far longer term benefits than is being hinted at present (that it will be a yearly required thing like Flu) then the pockets of infection will remain too big to save the vulnerable so we might as well save the £.

[ckn]

1 hour ago, SSoutherner said:

So how about buying tickets to Magic Weekend - will everyone have to have photo ID to prove they are the person named on a ticket purchase, purchased individually and tracked against that database ? How about Thorpe Park or next years Cheltenham, what about the crowd outside a stadium if a team wins a big trophy, a BLM demonstration. or for that matter a queue at Antiques Roadshow or a local gig

 

The issues around managing a large number of unvaccinated people in a population of mainly vaccinated are huge - I reckon if you even get to 10% non adherence then unless the vaccine has far longer term benefits than is being hinted at present (that it will be a yearly required thing like Flu) then the pockets of infection will remain too big to save the vulnerable so we might as well save the £.

I won't give up on trying to stop the selfish consigning the vulnerable to home detention. I also can't accept compulsory vaccinations. That then leaves how you manage those who refuse for no good reason. Given we're happy to dictate how people behave on all other matters from requiring driving licenses to drive, to requiring giving up sensitive information to the government in order to fly, then I'm fairly sure there's a mechanism we can roll out to limit the will-nots putting the can-nots at risk.

[ckn]

A localised message for our followers from Sunderland.

[heartofGold]

[JohnM]

Looks like Spain is  experiencing a sharp increase in cases. This is not over yet.

Simple poster that ALL shops could make and display.

           NO MASK - NO ENTRY

[gingerjon]

South Africa has banned the sale of alcohol and cigarettes during their lockdown period.

The horror.

[ivans82]

Just been on our local news channel that a group of people visited 4 pubs and a house party in Carlisle at the weekend , 6 of them have tested positive and are self isolating , an appeal has been put out for people in theses pubs at the weekend to get tested , one pub in Penrith has now had a case , this is where the real problem is ,pubs who let too many people in , no social distancing , no masks , no list of who is actually in the pub , if people think everything is going to be better by wearing masks when out shopping , they are in for a surprise , this is not where the main problem now lies .

[Dave T]

1 hour ago, ivans82 said:

Just been on our local news channel that a group of people visited 4 pubs and a house party in Carlisle at the weekend , 6 of them have tested positive and are self isolating , an appeal has been put out for people in theses pubs at the weekend to get tested , one pub in Penrith has now had a case , this is where the real problem is ,pubs who let too many people in , no social distancing , no masks , no list of who is actually in the pub , if people think everything is going to be better by wearing masks when out shopping , they are in for a surprise , this is not where the main problem now lies .

I think there should be very harsh punishments for establishments that don't have decent processes in place. 

I also think there should be harsh punishments for the football authorities who instigated huge gatherings this week at Liverpool, West Brom and Leeds.

This needs to be treated more seriously and people need to stop playing dumb, claiming innocence.

[Les Tonks Sidestep]

A bit more of a deterrent than our approach https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8549463/North-Koreans-given-three-months-hard-labour-not-wearing-Covid-19-facemasks.html 

[ckn]

Scotland bringing in face coverings: OK.

England bringing in face coverings: a mixture of hysteria on both sides, face-mask enforcers grumbling at folk not wearing masks when they're nowhere near others, face-mask haters who are going full Karen on the world.

It's really simple (this is an ethical guide, not legal as that's full of loopholes): if you're going into a building or transport that's not your domestic property, wear a face covering.  If you're in a public area where you can't stay >2m from others, wear a face covering.

If someone doesn't have a face covering on, are they <2m from you? If not, leave them alone. Please remember that some people have genuine hidden disabilities that mean they CANNOT wear face coverings, don't mask-shame them just so you can feel all righteous.

[SSoutherner]

On 23/07/2020 at 09:40, ivans82 said:

Just been on our local news channel that a group of people visited 4 pubs and a house party in Carlisle at the weekend , 6 of them have tested positive and are self isolating , an appeal has been put out for people in theses pubs at the weekend to get tested , one pub in Penrith has now had a case , this is where the real problem is ,pubs who let too many people in , no social distancing , no masks , no list of who is actually in the pub , if people think everything is going to be better by wearing masks when out shopping , they are in for a surprise , this is not where the main problem now lies .

Stonegate pubs group (they own a huge 700+ estate inc Yates) have no booking in system in place - this is there policy

Our Policies & Procedures Stonegate have developed specific Covid-19 Polices & Procedures to ensure that we are safe for our customers, our teams and we follow government guidelines. Our Covid Polices & Procedures are fully implemented with our teams & customers in mind to keep you safe and ensure your visit is the best we can provide. We have key areas for all parts of our pubs which include:

Our Teams-

 Have all been trained on Specific Covid-19 Risk assessments -including service cycles, specific floor plans & customer flow & enhanced cleaning regimes

 All required PPE is available for them to deliver a safe environment

 We have introduced temperature checks for all team members on duty prior to a shift

 We have a dedicated Team member to ensure the safety & additional cleanliness of our pubs at all times

 

Customers-

 We have clearly identified safe social distance markers

 We have screens at all till points

 We have a dedicated contactless ordering app

 We have safely distanced your table seating

 We have safe service for food & drink with dedicated team members and access points

 We have sanitising stations at the entrance of all our pubs, regular toilet checks with enhanced cleaning procedures

[Dave T]

30 minutes ago, ckn said:

Scotland bringing in face coverings: OK.

England bringing in face coverings: a mixture of hysteria on both sides, face-mask enforcers grumbling at folk not wearing masks when they're nowhere near others, face-mask haters who are going full Karen on the world.

It's really simple (this is an ethical guide, not legal as that's full of loopholes): if you're going into a building or transport that's not your domestic property, wear a face covering.  If you're in a public area where you can't stay >2m from others, wear a face covering.

If someone doesn't have a face covering on, are they <2m from you? If not, leave them alone. Please remember that some people have genuine hidden disabilities that mean they CANNOT wear face coverings, don't mask-shame them just so you can feel all righteous.

Watching this develop over the last few weeks, as an English man living in Scotland, I've been nothing but embarrassed by what I have been seeing, reading and hearing. 

It really is dead simple. Wear a ###### mask unless you really can't. 

[SSoutherner]

11 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Watching this develop over the last few weeks, as an English man living in Scotland, I've been nothing but embarrassed by what I have been seeing, reading and hearing. 

It really is dead simple. Wear a ###### mask unless you really can't. 

it is not like they have even specified it has to be a specific mask - it says "face covering", I can use the snood thing i wear on the bike in winter, it pulls up over mouth and nose "bandanna style", you can also just wear a neck scarf covering mouth & nose.

There is no one in this country who does not already own something they could use

[Dave T]

3 minutes ago, SSoutherner said:

it is not like they have even specified it has to be a specific mask - it says "face covering", I can use the snood thing i wear on the bike in winter, it pulls up over mouth and nose "bandanna style", you can also just wear a neck scarf covering mouth & nose.

There is no one in this country who does not already own something they could use

Yup. Early on up here I had a little gym towel thing that I used to wrap round my face when I forgot masks. I quickly realised it wasn't very good for breathing, but it meant I spent less in the shops as I rushed to get out! 

[Jeff Stein]

Just been in a Tesco's Express near where I live. No one on the door. Seem to have given up on one way system. No social distancing. Not one member of staff wearing a mask. Well over half of the customers I saw weren't wearing masks. Left furious. 

[Saintslass]

46 minutes ago, Jeff Stein said:

Just been in a Tesco's Express near where I live. No one on the door. Seem to have given up on one way system. No social distancing. Not one member of staff wearing a mask. Well over half of the customers I saw weren't wearing masks. Left furious. 

ASDA has given up completely on everything.  I've no idea whether anyone is wearing masks in there; they have already publicly stated they won't do anything about people not wearing face coverings which just about sums them up.  They were really good during full lockdown but they are terrible now and I won't be going back.  I tried complaining to the Council but they basically said 'nothing to do with us' even though I linked to the public health part of their site.  It's poor form IMO.