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32 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Please stop talking down Britain.

After you, sunshine. 


Four legs good - two legs bad

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I've been doing some background work on supporting the Harrogate site over the last few days. It will interesting to see how quickly it can be up and running, as well as being good to be contributing to supporting the front line in my own way. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-52141224

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Please view my photos.

 

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Little Nook Farm - Caravan Club Certificated Location in the heart of the Pennines overlooking Hebden Bridge and the Calder Valley.

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Little Nook Cottage - 2-bed self-catering cottage in the heart of the Pennines overlooking Hebden Bridge and the Calder Valley.

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2 hours ago, ckn said:

If this doesn't convince you to stay in this weekend with the predicted nicer weather, then you will be directly contributing to the death trajectory not coming down.

You are putting your friends and family at risk as well as my colleagues in the NHS.

Just stop.

 

It looks like at the moment we are in a similar place to the US.  We were tracking France a couple of days ago.  Who knows how it will go.

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LOOK AT GRAPHS AND CLAP AS MUCH AS U LIKE BUT -almost everyone I know is planning on going back to work next week - scaffold firms etc opening back up,that means sarnie shops etc will  creep in  thanks to the softly softly govt approach on lockdown instead of doing it properly  then we are heading for Italy mark2 now

Edited by graveyard johnny

the grass may be greener on the other side of the fence but the crows are just as black

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38 minutes ago, JohnM said:

It's tragic that anyone in the NHS should lose their lives for any reason, never mind because they've caught Covid - 19.

CKN, given your direct and respected experience of the NHS, why is the PPE question arising? 

1. On what basis do the experts, specialists, medical qualified people at PHE decide  the level of PPE required. After all, the message has been from many on here has been to respect and follow the science. 

2. How come the NHS, with all its resources, all its purchasing power, all its powerful leaders, its expertise, its scientists, its trades unions such as BMA and RCN etc, its 1.7 million staff has not exercised its power and set its own criteria and followed its own rules? 

3. PHE is an executive agency, I believe. What power, authority, etc do these civil servants have over the NHS.?

There are no supplies. Literally none. Private suppliers are not answering calls/emails and we’re buying stuff directly from China and other countries.

We do status reports daily across our patch from GP practices and we have no practices that have more than 1 day of full kit, most have complete outages of some items, especially eye protection. Clinicians are having to make the ethical nightmare decision of using short personal protection or patients doing without appointments, being clinicians they’re overwhelmingly treating patients.

1. There was a rapid clinical assessment of PPE by PHE over last weekend and released yesterday. I linked to it yesterday, let me know and I’ll link it again if you prefer. It is fine for use but we don’t have it all AND clinicians are still dying even if they are using it properly. 

I have some sympathy with PHE as there would NEVER be enough of the higher FFP3 standard masks, full-sleeved aprons/boiler suits, etc this side of June/July at the expected use, even if assuming we could repurpose all companies possible today. So, what do they do? The best they can. We know it’s the best they can do but clinicians are still dying with it.

2. That’s one for the political threads and directly links that vile old thwaite Lansbury and his butchery of the NHS into bits & pieces. To smooth feathers, Hunt and now Hancock have genuinely reversed that but would be years away in fair weather of making it back to 2011 standards. Hancock especially has been tough in pushing through reversals of the idiot 2012 “reforms”.

Also, see the 2nd paragraph of point 1, no point asking for perfect when we know “good” will be hard enough to source. “Live within your means” has no monetary meaning with this, it’s all entirely logistics and supply.

3. Some. They do work very closely with the NHS and are a respected body. See the second paragraphs of both 1 and 2.

——

The new “e-commerce” platform comes live next week where NHS organisations can buy kit from NHS supplies and it’ll be delivered using a commercial courier company that’s lost all its normal trade. Should be fast as long as it can keep supplies up (see above!). Some weird folk are still putting prices against these things rather than just sending places what we need.

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"When in deadly danger, when beset by doubt; run in little circles, wave your arms and shout"

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Thanks. Not intending it to be political, party political. 

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Four legs good - two legs bad

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29 minutes ago, Saintslass said:

It looks like at the moment we are in a similar place to the US.  We were tracking France a couple of days ago.  Who knows how it will go.

Problem is the various graphs being published have different start points for the x axis which makes a big difference to how they look eg (yesterday) staring at days since 10 deaths UK looked far worse than Germany and behind Italy, 25 deaths and UK and Germany similar, Italy still ahead etc. I'd say that (possibly excepting Spain which seems to be particularly bad in terms of rate of increase) pretty much all western countries are around the same. Simple fact is IT IS GRIM EVERYWHERE

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My son started showing symptoms last weekend. He had a pretty rough couple of days and by Monday he had lost all sense of taste and smell. I spoke to him yesterday and he said he was feeling fine now. I asked him if his sense of taste and smell had returned. The conversation went something like this:

"Can you taste anything yet?"

"I can taste beer and spicy food."

"Anything else?"

"I haven't tried anything else."

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Old Faithful we never lose at Wembley

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11 minutes ago, Les Tonks Sidestep said:

Problem is the various graphs being published have different start points for the x axis which makes a big difference to how they look eg (yesterday) staring at days since 10 deaths UK looked far worse than Germany and behind Italy, 25 deaths and UK and Germany similar, Italy still ahead etc. I'd say that (possibly excepting Spain which seems to be particularly bad in terms of rate of increase) pretty much all western countries are around the same. Simple fact is IT IS GRIM EVERYWHERE

The difference to me is how Spain and Italy have dealt with it. Both have been hard on lockdowns and their numbers aren’t rocketing away in terms of death increases now. Scary but stabilising and hopefully we’ll start to see them fall. The UK with some startlingly daft policies has seen a soft lockdown that may mean that reduction in increase may just not happen as quickly here.

If our strategy is better than Italy’s or Spain’s then I’ll be shocked. Pleasantly shocked, but still shocked.

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"When in deadly danger, when beset by doubt; run in little circles, wave your arms and shout"

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38 minutes ago, ckn said:

The difference to me is how Spain and Italy have dealt with it. Both have been hard on lockdowns and their numbers aren’t rocketing away in terms of death increases now. Scary but stabilising and hopefully we’ll start to see them fall. The UK with some startlingly daft policies has seen a soft lockdown that may mean that reduction in increase may just not happen as quickly here.

If our strategy is better than Italy’s or Spain’s then I’ll be shocked. Pleasantly shocked, but still shocked.

Not to mention we had more time to prepare than Italy and Spain and could use them to see a couple of weeks into the future. Given the advantages we had, it would be a disgrace if we end up with comparable numbers.

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1 hour ago, graveyard johnny said:

LOOK AT GRAPHS AND CLAP AS MUCH AS U LIKE BUT -almost everyone I know is planning on going back to work next week - scaffold firms etc opening back up,that means sarnie shops etc will  creep in  thanks to the softly softly govt approach on lockdown instead of doing it properly  then we are heading for Italy mark2 now

A very large national manufacturer where I know friends that work there are planning to have 1300 workers on site next week. Thats just 1 site out of the 2 they have in that city, plus other sites elsewhere. 1300 represents about 25-30% of the total

They say that there is stuff in place to ensure social distancing at work, but that doesn't consider how they get there and who's looking after their kids. In addition, the site has been swarmed with cleaners this week to justify opening

Same issues therefore about travel there for the cleaners this week and how it impacts their families

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22 minutes ago, shaun mc said:

A very large national manufacturer where I know friends that work there are planning to have 1300 workers on site next week. Thats just 1 site out of the 2 they have in that city, plus other sites elsewhere. 1300 represents about 25-30% of the total

They say that there is stuff in place to ensure social distancing at work, but that doesn't consider how they get there and who's looking after their kids. In addition, the site has been swarmed with cleaners this week to justify opening

Same issues therefore about travel there for the cleaners this week and how it impacts their families

All that will happen is either govt/authorities clamp down on this HARD 

or

we have another spike in infections

Going back to normal and it tailing off is NOT a possible outcome

As for PPE - if you had read the post from an old school contemporary you would have been under no illusion things were "under control"

Edited by SSoutherner

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1 hour ago, fevtom said:

Not to mention we had more time to prepare than Italy and Spain and could use them to see a couple of weeks into the future. Given the advantages we had, it would be a disgrace if we end up with comparable numbers.

I'm not sure we can escape comparable numbers can we?  I can see every country going the same way, eventually.

On the much cited Germany, I read somewhere - can't remember where now (I read too many things) - that one possible reason for their relatively low death numbers is that they exclude deaths where other factors are involved.  In other words, their death numbers are 'pure' Covid 19.  Has anyone else seen reference to that?  I can't remember where I saw it, which is most annoying.

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2 minutes ago, Saintslass said:

I'm not sure we can escape comparable numbers can we?  I can see every country going the same way, eventually.

On the much cited Germany, I read somewhere - can't remember where now (I read too many things) - that one possible reason for their relatively low death numbers is that they exclude deaths where other factors are involved.  In other words, their death numbers are 'pure' Covid 19.  Has anyone else seen reference to that?  I can't remember where I saw it, which is most annoying.

Germany is on the same track as the rest of us, just behind us in time. See the FT’s daily charts.


"When in deadly danger, when beset by doubt; run in little circles, wave your arms and shout"

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The memsahib has started vomiting after feeling worn out all day.

I have a sore throat.

We're both nurses. We both know the score. But we're both more than capable of over analysing things.

See what tomorrow brings. I would imagine I'm going to be locked up for two weeks now.

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2 minutes ago, Robin Evans said:

The memsahib has started vomiting after feeling worn out all day.

I have a sore throat.

We're both nurses. We both know the score. But we're both more than capable of over analysing things.

See what tomorrow brings. I would imagine I'm going to be locked up for two weeks now.

I felt worn out on Sunday.  Jeez, I hope it wasn't Covid 19!  Seriously.  Do you both think feeling worn out is a symptom?  If it is then I hope I haven't passed it on to my Mum as I had to go round there on Sunday.  I'm ok now (and I didn't vomit, although I did have an upset tummy).  Is there a bug doing the rounds do you think?

This is the problem with a new illness.  Nobody knows anything with any certainty!

Meanwhile, I hope both you and your other half have just caught a bug/cold and that you will both be ok.  

Worrying times.

 

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5 minutes ago, Saintslass said:

I felt worn out on Sunday.  Jeez, I hope it wasn't Covid 19!  Seriously.  Do you both think feeling worn out is a symptom?  If it is then I hope I haven't passed it on to my Mum as I had to go round there on Sunday.  I'm ok now (and I didn't vomit, although I did have an upset tummy).  Is there a bug doing the rounds do you think?

This is the problem with a new illness.  Nobody knows anything with any certainty!

Meanwhile, I hope both you and your other half have just caught a bug/cold and that you will both be ok.  

Worrying times.

 

I know four confirmed cases plus one who has died.

In all cases extreme nausea was present in early symptoms couple with feeling excessively fatigued. 

This could indeed be a gastric issue. We've both considered that. The memsahib is now running a temperature and has started running to the lav. It too could be something else. This is why I think waiting at least til morning before making a further assessment is necessary.

However,  given the extremely virulent nature of c-19, its kind of firmly in my head at the mo....

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20 minutes ago, Saintslass said:

I'm not sure we can escape comparable numbers can we?  I can see every country going the same way, eventually.

On the much cited Germany, I read somewhere - can't remember where now (I read too many things) - that one possible reason for their relatively low death numbers is that they exclude deaths where other factors are involved.  In other words, their death numbers are 'pure' Covid 19.  Has anyone else seen reference to that?  I can't remember where I saw it, which is most annoying.

I heard read this too a while ago but after investigating it appears Germany are counting any deaths where infection was proven or even suspected if not tested. 
 

I don’t think any country will be able to escape widespread infection but the deaths may differ depending on how well the vulnerable are shielded and how well individual countries can manage ICU capacity which will include slowing down the spread.

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4 minutes ago, Robin Evans said:

I know four confirmed cases plus one who has died.

In all cases extreme nausea was present in early symptoms couple with feeling excessively fatigued. 

This could indeed be a gastric issue. We've both considered that. The memsahib is now running a temperature and has started running to the lav. It too could be something else. This is why I think waiting at least til morning before making a further assessment is necessary.

However,  given the extremely virulent nature of c-19, its kind of firmly in my head at the mo....

Oh the poor thing.  Whether Covid or not, it sounds bloody awful.  I hope the memsahib is ok soon!

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Amongst all this awfulness, I thought I'd post something happy and hopeful:

 

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23 minutes ago, Saintslass said:

I felt worn out on Sunday.  Jeez, I hope it wasn't Covid 19!  Seriously.  Do you both think feeling worn out is a symptom?  If it is then I hope I haven't passed it on to my Mum as I had to go round there on Sunday.  I'm ok now (and I didn't vomit, although I did have an upset tummy).  Is there a bug doing the rounds do you think?

This is the problem with a new illness.  Nobody knows anything with any certainty!

Meanwhile, I hope both you and your other half have just caught a bug/cold and that you will both be ok.  

Worrying times.

 

I’m knackered and my joints are aching but it’s stress doing that going by my historical experience with it. The stress you had with your work being bum holes to you will have had you running on toxic adrenaline. That could have been what was hitting you, your body struggling with stress. 

But then I’m not a clinician!


"When in deadly danger, when beset by doubt; run in little circles, wave your arms and shout"

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"When in deadly danger, when beset by doubt; run in little circles, wave your arms and shout"

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4 minutes ago, ckn said:

I’m knackered and my joints are aching but it’s stress doing that going by my historical experience with it. The stress you had with your work being bum holes to you will have had you running on toxic adrenaline. That could have been what was hitting you, your body struggling with stress. 

But then I’m not a clinician!

This is what I told myself as well, just to make myself feel better!

Although you are spot on, even though you are not a clinician.  I got into a terrible state by the time they actually did something (ie at the time when the horse was bolting over the horizon).  I couldn't sleep, felt sick all the time, I was hyper vigilant, I was barking at my bosses (not such a good idea!) and forgetting what I had just done.

So it could have been stress.  I was definitely under a lot of strain.  Hopefully we are both right about our physical condition and can continue man/womanfully onwards!

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