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2 hours ago, RL does what Sky says said:

I just wonder how many people would have protested if Folau had signed for their team instead ?

If they were so grieved at the situation then would they have boycotted all the games he was playing in to show their support for the ones he was talking about ?

Would you ?????

Yeh leneghan said they looked at him but don't have cap room 

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44 minutes ago, The British Lion said:

Ive already given some thoughts on page 22 or 23 of this discussion in terms of the list of people the bible passage Israel quotes from, in terms of no-one else took offence from that list except the LGBTQ community and the mass of people as it has been a culturally driven issue in the West.

A simpler question is, to add, is it inclusive and diverse of the RFL, or any sport, to 'disclude' someone for their opposite belief. It has a stench of one rule for one, another rule for the most offended - which is the culture of the West these days.

I'd like to put forward (whatever your view is) that its disclusive not to include a Muslim, Christian, or other for their stated beliefs, in the face of what the worldly views are.

Such a good argument someone else made the same point too 

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3 hours ago, RMBJ said:

 

Tyson doesn't campaign for rape to be made legal. And a boxer is not employed in anything close to how a rugby player is. 

So someone that actually commits a crime ks less of an offence than someone whose religion tells him something is a sin and repeats this 

Ok 

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9 hours ago, Wolford6 said:

You're a Catholic. Just say sorry to the Priest at Sunday Confession.

?

My friends a Catholic and goes once a week to church 

The priest asks him how many times he's had a bat that week and then forgives him for it 

It's good repeat business 

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2 hours ago, Bert1 said:

If he hits the ground running and stays with league Tonga could win the World Cup.

Good point 

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11 hours ago, Moove said:

Interesting you should mention Rochdale given they've just signed someone who only last month was convicted of assaulting his girlfriend, punching her and forcing his hand down her throat.

Whilst deploring what Folau said, RLs moral compass is totally messed up.

Who was that player might I ask?

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6 hours ago, Poower Lad said:

 

Mike Tyson is a CONVICTED rapist yet he was/ is endorsed by the media and was allowed to ply his trade . How in gods name is that ok but Israel not . 

And he like to snack on human ears...

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1 hour ago, Manfred Mann said:

Who was that player might I ask?

Kenny Hughes. Nice bloke.

Although it looks like Rochdale might have released him already, thankfully. Oddly the only mention of the signing now seems to be on Oldham's website (ex Oldham player), maybe someone's been busy with the delete button ?

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I see we're at the "let's ignore the protests that followed Mike Tyson throughout the rest of his professional career" stage.

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Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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6 hours ago, The British Lion said:

I'd like to put forward (whatever your view is) that its disclusive not to include a Muslim, Christian, or other for their stated beliefs, in the face of what the worldly views are.

Almost certainly would be.

But I note that Folau actually has a professional contract to play rugby league. So could you tell me how we're being disclusive?

This is a forum. Debate. Free speech, such as it exists, never means "freedom to have everyone nod along and whatever I say has no consequences".


Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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8 hours ago, RL does what Sky says said:

I just wonder how many people would have protested if Folau had signed for their team instead ?

If they were so grieved at the situation then would they have boycotted all the games he was playing in to show their support for the ones he was talking about ?

Would you ?????

There's some Catalans fans out there who have made clear their opposition. I'm sure most will find a way to support their team. It's what fans do. It's why many outside observers point to the toxic atmosphere it creates where criminal behaviour (as an example) off the field gets 'redemption' on the field regardless of whether that is deserved in reality or not.


Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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On 28/01/2020 at 11:09, gingerjon said:

So why'd Britain execute William Joyce then?

Free speech, let him say untrue things without being challenged, you communist fascist liberal!


"You clearly have never met Bob8 then, he's like a veritable Bryan Ferry of RL." - Johnoco 19 Jul 2014

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10 hours ago, Poower Lad said:

Just a thought though . SBW is against advertising that is against his belief system and the RFL have bent over backwards to accommodate him . What’s the thoughts on if each individual player acting that way .

I've no problem with it. Bit surprised that there aren't more asking for the betting logo to be covered up. Churches speak out against gambling all the time. I have a memory that at least one mainstream denomination still refuses to receive any support from lottery funding for example.

Cricket obviously features a lot of Muslim players. Watch any T20 Blast game (as an example) and you'll see a couple of lads playing with alcohol sponsors logos blocked out. The game of cricket still goes ahead, Shepherd Neame still get their logo all over the Kent cricket ground.

I'm not aware of any player having gone on record as saying that Katherine Brunt and half of England's 2017 World Cup winning team is going to hell because homosexuality is sinful.


Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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5 hours ago, Man of Kent said:

 

When I worked in Belgium, I had work colleagues who would show their anger at me by not kissing me.

They had no idea what a relief it was!

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"You clearly have never met Bob8 then, he's like a veritable Bryan Ferry of RL." - Johnoco 19 Jul 2014

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18 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

I see we're at the "let's ignore the protests that followed Mike Tyson throughout the rest of his professional career" stage.

Indeed, but that was also nigh on thirty years ago. While nothing has changed morally, the social rules have changes in terms of acceptibility. I would think what he did would get a stronger backlash today.


"You clearly have never met Bob8 then, he's like a veritable Bryan Ferry of RL." - Johnoco 19 Jul 2014

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1 minute ago, Bob8 said:

Indeed, but that was also nigh on thirty years ago. While nothing has changed morally, the social rules have changes in terms of acceptibility. I would think what he did would get a stronger backlash today.

Also, thirty years ago ...

EPcOhO2X0AEGH5J?format=jpg&name=large


Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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9 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

Nah, "finding it" is as good as choosing it.

It's really not. 

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1 hour ago, gingerjon said:

Almost certainly would be.

But I note that Folau actually has a professional contract to play rugby league. So could you tell me how we're being disclusive?

This is a forum. Debate. Free speech, such as it exists, never means "freedom to have everyone nod along and whatever I say has no consequences".

Free speech for folau too ?

OI i googled it disclusive isnt a word

Edited by aj1908

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15 minutes ago, aj1908 said:

Free speech for folau too ?

OI i googled it disclusive isnt a word

I was using it to respond to the poster above.

Folau needs a capital.

Free speech never means freedom from consequences, does it? Folau can say and do what he likes. But he doesn't exist in a vacuum and he may find that his employment as a professional sportsmen is hindered, indeed has been hindered, by exercising that freedom.

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Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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9 hours ago, RMBJ said:

 

Tyson doesn't campaign for rape to be made legal. And a boxer is not employed in anything close to how a rugby player is. 

So morally you are happy with that . 

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1 hour ago, gingerjon said:

I see we're at the "let's ignore the protests that followed Mike Tyson throughout the rest of his professional career" stage.

Not ignoring it just surprised at some of the outlets that have associated with Tyson that then spit and wasps at Israel . I think the major problem most people have is the massive hypocrisy that people who jump on these trial by media band wagons have and never seem to have a decent excuse . I am happy to be honest and say I like my friends family and people who I like to get away with more than people who I don’t . 

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Well I must  say I am finding this thread rather depressing on the eve of a new season. The amount of defence and justification of Folau's hate speech surprises me, maybe it shouldn't.

The defences we have seen include freedom of speech, protecting his religious rights, PC gone mad, it's all an attack by do-gooders, many share his views, he didn't say anything bad, he offered to apologise, others have done other things, people are looking to be offended for others, and so on.

The bit that seems lacking from many of these posts making any kind of defence is the acknowledgement of the people that are the target of this hatred. Many LGBTQ+ people are still vulnerable in many parts of the world, including the UK, where we see regular homophobic attacks. But it can be much worse in other parts of the world where people can be thrown off buildings or stoned for being gay, often driven by a religious cult. But hey, its what they believe in. 

In the UK, people still have trouble 'coming out', still face prejudice and still fighting for their rights, usually to be treated like normal people. In the RL community we are meant to be inclusive and we use our sense of community for good, we work with vulnerable groups - and for us to go out and actively sign a non-RL player who has chosen to publicly spout hatred against gay people is a kick in the teeth for these people and the work that many of our clubs are doing. It's all well and good saying he is just quoting the bible, but they are now his words on his social media, it is no defence that somebody else said it first. He is telling gay people to repent, that they are sinning, freedom of speech allows him to do that, but I'm not sure why the game would go within 50 miles of him.

 

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6 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Well I must  say I am finding this thread rather depressing on the eve of a new season. The amount of defence and justification of Folau's hate speech surprises me, maybe it shouldn't.

The defences we have seen include freedom of speech, protecting his religious rights, PC gone mad, it's all an attack by do-gooders, many share his views, he didn't say anything bad, he offered to apologise, others have done other things, people are looking to be offended for others, and so on.

The bit that seems lacking from many of these posts making any kind of defence is the acknowledgement of the people that are the target of this hatred. Many LGBTQ+ people are still vulnerable in many parts of the world, including the UK, where we see regular homophobic attacks. But it can be much worse in other parts of the world where people can be thrown off buildings or stoned for being gay, often driven by a religious cult. But hey, its what they believe in. 

In the UK, people still have trouble 'coming out', still face prejudice and still fighting for their rights, usually to be treated like normal people. In the RL community we are meant to be inclusive and we use our sense of community for good, we work with vulnerable groups - and for us to go out and actively sign a non-RL player who has chosen to publicly spout hatred against gay people is a kick in the teeth for these people and the work that many of our clubs are doing. It's all well and good saying he is just quoting the bible, but they are now his words on his social media, it is no defence that somebody else said it first. He is telling gay people to repent, that they are sinning, freedom of speech allows him to do that, but I'm not sure why the game would go within 50 miles of him.

 

Because he's a good rugby player 

And other rugby players have donr far far worse 

So 

Edited by aj1908
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A second point, which I intentionally wanted to keep separate, is on the 'we allow criminals to play RL' point.

I do think there is an important distinction here. And before I go further I will clarify that I am good with the RFL's position of not banning players like the NRL do - it leads to inconsistency, I am talking here about self-moderation by the clubs.

But if we accept that both have done wrong (the hypothetical player who has had a dog lick his balls, or been found guilty of drink driving) as well as Folau, there is an important point that what follows is very different. 

In every case of criminality we have seen the justice system take action, and people take their punishment where relevant. We believe in rehabilitation in this country, and in every case the player will show remorse, but we accept that players are human beings who are fallible and make mistakes and bad choices, get involved in bad stuff, and indeed carry out  bad acts.  But we always see remorse, apologies, and time served where appropriate. 

Where Folau differs is that if 'the game' finds his behaviour bad, he is not showing any remorse, he will happily do it again if he is allowed, and still very much holds those views. That is his prerogative, but that shows to me at least that he is not a person that is compatible with our game's values. 

As a game we should be forgiving, offering 2nd chances, helping with rehabilitation, but that is very different to what is happening here with Folau.

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