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Israel Folau (Merged threads)


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Hudgell said "Oops".

"International rugby league star Shaun Kenny-Dowall has been charged with 10 domestic violence offences over the alleged repeated abuse of his former partner.

The 28-year-old was charged with stalking, intimidating, destroying or damaging property, assault occasioning actual bodily harm and six counts of assault, according to a NSW Police statement."

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21 minutes ago, dboy said:

It really isn't.

It's about who draws the line about what is morally acceptable (not legally or criminally - IF has been convicted of nothing), and where is that line drawn.

It is an impossible line to define.

How on earth can you possibly try and compare someone's deeply held beliefs which contradict the stated inclusivity of the sport on the one hand with a player convicted of domestic assault on the other.

No, the only thing you can do is judge each situation on it's own merits and dispense with the moral relativism that comes with whataboutism. 

"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

"If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris

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3 hours ago, Dunbar said:

It's not splitting hairs at all Harry.  Lot's of Rugby players (Union and League) are devout Christians and, as Folau does, many of them will clearly believe in the literal word of the bible and its views on homosexuality.

Therefore the obvious conclusion is that it is not what Folau believes that is the issue but how he expressed it... otherwise why is there a fuss about Folau and not any of the other Christian players.

Yes, the comments were expressing his beliefs and it was the expression that was the problem, not the beliefs themselves.

 

It's OK to have Christian beliefs but don't express those beliefs. 

It's OK to believe meat is murder but don't express those beliefs 

It's OK to believe in women's rights but don't express those beliefs. 

It's OK to believe that homosexuality is normal but don't express those beliefs. 

It's OK to vote Conservative but don't express those beliefs 

It's OK to believe Rugby League is the superior code but don't express those beliefs 

2014 Challenged Cup Winner
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2 hours ago, LR23 said:

I mean where do you start with that article- it’s borderline condescending, probably insulting to some Tongans and worst of all poorly researched. I mean a quick Google search or look on these forums would tell you that IF has expressed his views in more than a sole Instagram post. Nice job offering an excuse for him as well (he was offering those poor homosexuals redemption apparently).
 

The mind boggles with some of Sadler’s blinkered views these days. 

Where do I start with your response to my article?

I'm not sure what you mean by 'borderline condescending'.

Of course I am not 'probably insulting to some Tongans'.

What do you mean by 'poorly researched'?

I'm well aware that Folau has expressed his views more than once, but I was referring to the reason he was sacked by Rugby Australlia, which was because of his Instagram post last April.

I don't mind criticism, but I prefer it to be well founded, not based on misunderstanding or misrepresenting what I'm saying.

I'm not offering an excuse for him, but suggesting that all religious people believe that by following the tenets of their faith they will be saved in the afterlife and the rest of us won't be. That is why many faiths are evangelical, trying to warn us off those habits that conflict with what they believe in.

My mind boggles with how someone like you can read something and just not get it, either deliberately or simply because your prejudices won't allow you to weigh the arguments in your mind.

Your response isn't so much blinkered as wilfully blind.

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6 hours ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

What if his religious belief was that all black men would go to hell?

He should be as free to express it as I am, and hope always to be, to disagree, in this (to date and predominantly) enlightened country.

“The purpose of life is to live it, to taste experience to the utmost, to reach out eagerly and without fear for newer and richer experience.”  Eleanor Roosevelt

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3 hours ago, LR23 said:

I mean where do you start with that article- it’s borderline condescending, probably insulting to some Tongans and worst of all poorly researched. I mean a quick Google search or look on these forums would tell you that IF has expressed his views in more than a sole Instagram post. Nice job offering an excuse for him as well (he was offering those poor homosexuals redemption apparently).
 

The mind boggles with some of Sadler’s blinkered views these days. 

Oddly enough, however, the right in a free country to express our own thoughts and beliefs, as we here do and are doing - mostly without thought or question - does not restrict us to expressing any one belief or opinion only once and once only.

I frequently read opinions on this website which I think are at best weird (and at worst downright ridiculous) but that is only my opinion, and no matter how sure I am that I am right, I will defend at the ballot box till I die, your right equally to hold and openly express your views and beliefs.

The right also, as I have already said, of Israel Falau to hold and express his. no matter how far they differ from my own or those of anyone else on this forum.

To do otherwise would make me a pathetic, wannabe, petty dictator.

“The purpose of life is to live it, to taste experience to the utmost, to reach out eagerly and without fear for newer and richer experience.”  Eleanor Roosevelt

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And now the SL clubs have a gentleman's agreement to have a discussion on whether signings should be allowed. What would happen if he fancied me Nana's Sunday tea and wanted to play for Fev? 

The RFL at the outset should have said that we're an open and inclusive sport. Whilst we don't agree with Folau's comment, he hasn't broken any laws so he has the right to play our sport. At the same time, use it to actively promote what we do in terms of pride etc, we are indeed an open sport etc etc

 

 

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This is all making the game look very bad. Blacklisting people due to religious beliefs is ludicrous. Folau is not inciting violence against anyone. Those who feel Folau's beliefs are wrong have nothing to fear from his comments because they aren't going to become true.

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1 hour ago, eal said:

This is all making the game look very bad. Blacklisting people due to religious beliefs is ludicrous. Folau is not inciting violence against anyone. Those who feel Folau's beliefs are wrong have nothing to fear from his comments because they aren't going to become true.

Being an elite athlete for an organisation is also a marketing role. You have to produce the goods both in marketing and on the field in accordance with your employer’s aims.
 

If the athlete’s marketing is threatening income and they refuse to change, it’s farewell to the juicy contract.

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6 hours ago, Wiltshire Rhino said:

It's OK to have Christian beliefs but don't express those beliefs. 

It's OK to believe meat is murder but don't express those beliefs 

It's OK to believe in women's rights but don't express those beliefs. 

It's OK to believe that homosexuality is normal but don't express those beliefs. 

It's OK to vote Conservative but don't express those beliefs 

It's OK to believe Rugby League is the superior code but don't express those beliefs 

I said 'how' he expressed them. A word you seem to have missed out in your 6 scenarios here.

"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

"If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris

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26 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

I said 'how' he expressed them. A word you seem to have missed out in your 6 scenarios here.

The word "how" is open to interpretation on his intent. To really know the intent behind any statement, you'll need to bring in the Thought Police. 

2014 Challenged Cup Winner
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6 minutes ago, Wiltshire Rhino said:

The word "how" is open to interpretation on his intent. To really know the intent behind any statement, you'll need to bring in the Thought Police. 

No, the 'how' is easy... that was his Instagram post and how he presented the message. 

What you are moving on to with question of his intent is the 'why'.

Anyway. It's pretty clear logic. Many Rugby players are Christiana and it is safe to assume that a lot of them believe what Falou believes about homosexuality as stated in the bible.

So what is different about Folau and all the others? How he expressed those beliefs.

If he had expressed those beliefs in a less provocative and confrontational way we would not be here today.

Look, I am not questioning his right to express his beliefs or his right to express them the way he wants to. But, as all of us do, you have to balance what you say and how you say it with your environment and the principles and values of your community and your employers.  Folau didn't do this and this is the fall out.

You are free to say whatever you want but you have to face the consequences of what you say and how you say it.

"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

"If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris

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4 hours ago, MattSantos said:

And now the SL clubs have a gentleman's agreement to have a discussion on whether signings should be allowed. What would happen if he fancied me Nana's Sunday tea and wanted to play for Fev? 

The RFL at the outset should have said that we're an open and inclusive sport. Whilst we don't agree with Folau's comment, he hasn't broken any laws so he has the right to play our sport. At the same time, use it to actively promote what we do in terms of pride etc, we are indeed an open sport etc etc

 

 

Some respect please. The correct Samoan spelling is Nanais Sundai'ti.

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17 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

No, the 'how' is easy... that was his Instagram post and how he presented the message. 

What you are moving on to with question of his intent is the 'why'.

Anyway. It's pretty clear logic. Many Rugby players are Christiana and it is safe to assume that a lot of them believe what Falou believes about homosexuality as stated in the bible.

So what is different about Folau and all the others? How he expressed those beliefs.

If he had expressed those beliefs in a less provocative and confrontational way we would not be here today.

Look, I am not questioning his right to express his beliefs or his right to express them the way he wants to. But, as all of us do, you have to balance what you say and how you say it with your environment and the principles and values of your community and your employers.  Folau didn't do this and this is the fall out.

You are free to say whatever you want but you have to face the consequences of what you say and how you say it.

Which he did in Australia , while employed in a different sport 

He has been made fully aware of what will happen if he does it in the UK controlled sport of SL 

 

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36 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

 

You are free to say whatever you want but you have to face the consequences of what you say and how you say it.

How you "say" things is difficult online. There's no inflection, emphasis on words. The scripture quote could mean that Falou was concerned that people are going to hell and he wants to help save them. Or it could mean he's a homophobic bigot (forgetting all the other groups in the post). Or somewhere in between. The problem is this is decided by the reader, who may not be right in the interpretation of the reason why it was posted. 

To be fair, even saying it out loud with inflection and emphasis, someone still might misinterpret the intent. 

2014 Challenged Cup Winner
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I have avoided all comments on this subject due to where it ends up. Israel Folau has signed up for a club without breaking any law or the Catalan club breaking any rules. If SL want to become Big Brother, that doesn’t affect what has happened as of now,

I hope that Folau goes to games and is shown the courtesy a civilised society is based on. Let’s see how he conducts himself in SL. If he says no more and gets on with the game, SL will be benefitted from what he has to offer. If you think someone is intolerant, show then what tolerance and respect is.

My blog: https://rugbyl.blogspot.co.nz/

It takes wisdom to know when a discussion has run its course.

It takes reasonableness to end that discussion. 

 

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All those who refer to other examples of bad behaviour miss the point spectacularly. 

As a sport it is right we offer 2nd and 3rd chances etc. People are fallible. They make mistakes, they get in trouble, drink, fight, commit crimes etc. We shouldn't throw people on the scrap heap and we should be proud of offering opportunities for people to rebuild their lives. 

But, there is a big difference. In literally every other case, we start with some level of remorse. We start with an apology, punishment, and maybe things like community work etc. All players who make these mistakes are genuine about trying to rebuild lives and not make these bad choices again. 

Folau does not fall in this camp. He has played the victim, and has bemoaned his treatment as an attack on his religious freedom. He has the same views, and is literally keeping his mouth shut because we are paying him to do so. He has a high chance of repeating this behaviour and he is not looking for ant kind of redemption. He can not redeem himself here as he is not trying to. He is not after a 2nd chance. 

How can he get involved in Catalans community work? How can he work with kids, or go into schools? 

I am happy for people who have done far worse offenders to be given a chance to rebuild their life, as a society we should support redemption. Folau isn't interested in that. 

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18 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Which he did in Australia , while employed in a different sport 

He has been made fully aware of what will happen if he does it in the UK controlled sport of SL 

 

Fair enough. Personally I think you can make a call on whether you choose to employ someone based on their behaviour with a previous employer. 

I have stated for the record that I prefer we didn't bring him to League but now he is here I hope he can add real value on the pitch.

"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

"If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris

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We are letting people out of prison early  with far worse religious views than Israel Folau. Then having twenty coppers on a 24-/7 surveillance programme for the parolee. Can't see Macron ordering a similar programme for Israel Folau.

We are officially out of the EU now. Can't see what Hudgell can do about a French club signing an Australian. If he's that bothered, he can refuse to play the Catalans. Then he'll have no corporate hospitaliteers whatsoever for the cancelled game.

Maybe, Hudgell's own firm has a strict policy of not accepting clients whose personal views he does not agree with? Pull the other one.

 

Under Scrutiny by the Right-On Thought Police

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23 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Which he did in Australia , while employed in a different sport 

He has been made fully aware of what will happen if he does it in the UK controlled sport of SL 

 

Double post.

"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

"If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris

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24 minutes ago, Wiltshire Rhino said:

How you "say" things is difficult online. There's no inflection, emphasis on words. The scripture quote could mean that Falou was concerned that people are going to hell and he wants to help save them. Or it could mean he's a homophobic bigot (forgetting all the other groups in the post). Or somewhere in between. The problem is this is decided by the reader, who may not be right in the interpretation of the reason why it was posted. 

To be fair, even saying it out loud with inflection and emphasis, someone still might misinterpret the intent. 

I agree.

And for the record I do believe that Falou's intention was the former, that he was saying what he said with genuine concern and the desire to save people.  That is why I have not labelled his comments as hateful or homophobic.

"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

"If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris

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