Sports Prophet Posted February 7, 2020 Share Posted February 7, 2020 Anyone care? I thought I would care more when they added Maori, but alas, it’s an exhibition game and I just can’t get excited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hunsletgreenandgold Posted February 7, 2020 Share Posted February 7, 2020 4 minutes ago, Sports Prophet said: Anyone care? I thought I would care more when they added Maori, but alas, it’s an exhibition game and I just can’t get excited. Glad you started a thread about it then to set the tone...... I actually agree though, it was good when it first came about but now you get that many players pulling out, the term 'All Stars' seems a bit misleading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidM Posted February 7, 2020 Share Posted February 7, 2020 20 minutes ago, hunsletgreenandgold said: Glad you started a thread about it then to set the tone...... I actually agree though, it was good when it first came about but now you get that many players pulling out, the term 'All Stars' seems a bit misleading. Agree . I liked the original premise with all the world stars , then they changed it and , with pull outs , I don’t think it’s really took off . The Nines has overshadowed it now. That’s been very entertaining Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Futtocks Posted February 7, 2020 Share Posted February 7, 2020 It had a bright start, with some entertaining matches, but they shouldn't let it limp on when the stars don't want to take part. As for the Nines, I've booked the Friday off work and am looking forward to it. Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted. Ralph Waldo Emerson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Man of Kent Posted February 7, 2020 Share Posted February 7, 2020 Seems to be more about celebrating - rightfully - indigenous cultures than the rugby. Will still watch it, mind you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Great Dane Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 7 hours ago, Futtocks said: It had a bright start, with some entertaining matches, but they shouldn't let it limp on when the stars don't want to take part. As for the Nines, I've booked the Friday off work and am looking forward to it. If the NRL try to axe the Indigenous All Stars it'll be PR nightmare of epic proportions, every man and his dog will come out of the woodwork to claim that it's discrimination and that the NRL is racist. So the NRL are stuck with the All Stars match whether they like it or not. It's just one of the multitude of reasons why creating racial and/or ethnic teams was such a bad idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eal Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 The apartheid All Stars is a terrible concept. As there is no white team I am left with nobody to support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sports Prophet Posted February 8, 2020 Author Share Posted February 8, 2020 14 hours ago, DavidM said: Agree . I liked the original premise with all the world stars , then they changed it I think it had to be changed. There were rumblings of it being blacks v whites 2 hours ago, The Great Dane said: If the NRL try to axe the Indigenous All Stars it'll be PR nightmare of epic proportions, every man and his dog will come out of the woodwork to claim that it's discrimination and that the NRL is racist. So the NRL are stuck with the All Stars match whether they like it or not. It's just one of the multitude of reasons why creating racial and/or ethnic teams was such a bad idea. I don’t think they are stuck with it, but the whole thing with these gimmicky or exhibition style events/fixtures, done annually, they swiftly lose their lustre. An Indigenous v Maori every four years would probably hit the mark. The 9s every four years probably would too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aj1908 Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 1 hour ago, eal said: The apartheid All Stars is a terrible concept. As there is no white team I am left with nobody to support. But apartheid was all white people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Great Dane Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 3 hours ago, Sports Prophet said: I don’t think they are stuck with it, but the whole thing with these gimmicky or exhibition style events/fixtures, done annually, they swiftly lose their lustre. An Indigenous v Maori every four years would probably hit the mark. The 9s every four years probably would too. The problem is that the Indigenous players and portion of the fan base don't consider it to be a gimmick, novelty, or exhibition, they take it deadly seriously, and they aren't going to like it if it's messed with to much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 4 hours ago, eal said: The apartheid All Stars is a terrible concept. As there is no white team I am left with nobody to support. 3 hours ago, aj1908 said: But apartheid was all white people. It's inspiring seeing great minds debate. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aj1908 Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 2 minutes ago, Dunbar said: It's inspiring seeing great minds debate. thanks a lot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DlEHARD Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 I think it is good to add the Maori team and hopefully it encourages more participation. I also want to see the Indigenous team tour, maybe to South Africa. DIEHARD / TITAN / MAROON / KANGAROO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eal Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 Which of course highlights the stupidity of this all. An all-white Australian team is somehow considered bizarre yet a team featuring players with tenuous heritage from various Indigenous tribes that didn't even consider themselves one people is viewed as a good thing. I guess it gives these guys a chance to moan about the anthem and go walkabout in the bush for a few weeks in the pre season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eal Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 White people have to apologize forever it seems. Even though every culture has practiced slavery, war, and fought over land. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 What a surprise this thread went this way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Great Dane Posted February 9, 2020 Share Posted February 9, 2020 9 hours ago, Dunbar said: Of course there is a difference and it is so obvious that I cannot believe that you cannot see it. Let's finish this discussion. Would it be discriminatory and/or racist if any other race and/or ethnicity had a representative team like the Indigenous and Maori ones? If yes then Indigenous and Maori ones are discriminatory and/or racist as well, and therefor are a bad idea and shouldn't exist. If no then you should have no problem with other races and/or ethnicities having their own exclusive representative teams. If yes but it's ok in this case because reasons, then you aren't working on a consistent principle and you've created an inherently discriminatory system where certain classes of people based on race and/or ethnicity are afforded special privileges that others of different classes aren't afforded, and in your attempts to right the wrongs of the past you've literally created a discriminatory system similar to the discriminatory systems of yesteryear that created the wrongs you are attempting to right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aj1908 Posted February 9, 2020 Share Posted February 9, 2020 11 hours ago, Dunbar said: Which non indigenous peoples of Australia were you thinking of that would representtheir culture? Then we can have a discussion about it. It may be easier for all of us if you said that rather than use code. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aj1908 Posted February 9, 2020 Share Posted February 9, 2020 I like.yhe addition of the Maori In the early days of league in Australia two Maori tours helped save the nswrl from bankruptcy Also the game had strong roots with the Maori people in New Zealand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Moore Posted February 9, 2020 Share Posted February 9, 2020 I feel like the answer here is for England to pick a team which does not include players indigenous to Australia (or New Zealand, I'm not being picky) and tour somewhere with it. I don't think many people would complain about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted February 9, 2020 Share Posted February 9, 2020 3 hours ago, The Great Dane said: Let's finish this discussion. Would it be discriminatory and/or racist if any other race and/or ethnicity had a representative team like the Indigenous and Maori ones? If yes then Indigenous and Maori ones are discriminatory and/or racist as well, and therefor are a bad idea and shouldn't exist. If no then you should have no problem with other races and/or ethnicities having their own exclusive representative teams. If yes but it's ok in this case because reasons, then you aren't working on a consistent principle and you've created an inherently discriminatory system where certain classes of people based on race and/or ethnicity are afforded special privileges that others of different classes aren't afforded, and in your attempts to right the wrongs of the past you've literally created a discriminatory system similar to the discriminatory systems of yesteryear that created the wrongs you are attempting to right. Firstly, I am not sure why words like 'racist' or 'discriminatory' have been brought into the conversation as we are really discussing how appropriate it is to have various teams representing certain players heritage or ethnicity. I know what you are moving towards. Why is it ok to support a team like the Indigenous Australians or the Maori when it wouldn't be appropriate to have a team representing the European heritage of some Australian people? Well, the answer to that is that the world is complicated and you cannot paint black and white lines... you have to take into account the historical and cultural sensitivities and use some actual judgement to see what is appropriate or not. I am ok if you think that a representative team celebrating the European heritage of Australians would be ok. I am in the corner that's says it would be inappropriate. I am happy for us to disagree on such matters. What I will say is that I think you are being sensationalist to say that the selection of representative Rugby League teams is in someway analogous to the discriminatory systems that effected the Indigenous population of Australia in the countries past. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sports Prophet Posted February 9, 2020 Author Share Posted February 9, 2020 5 hours ago, aj1908 said: I like.yhe addition of the Maori In the early days of league in Australia two Maori tours helped save the nswrl from bankruptcy Also the game had strong roots with the Maori people in New Zealand I really like the addition as well, but again, it’s the exhibition nature of the fixture that just loses my interest. Once every four years would probably see less players drop out and give the event more of a buzz. We don’t hold a World Cup every year do we? I reckon four events rolling on 4 yr cycles. Indig’ and Maori Stars one year, 9s another (include SL teams). What other two events could work to complete the four year cycle? You’re spot on about the rich heritage of RL in Maori. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Great Dane Posted February 9, 2020 Share Posted February 9, 2020 3 hours ago, Dunbar said: Firstly, I am not sure why words like 'racist' or 'discriminatory' have been brought into the conversation as we are really discussing how appropriate it is to have various teams representing certain players heritage or ethnicity. They've been brought in because teams that are selecting based on race or ethnicity are literally discriminating based on race and ethnicity, there is no other word for it. That is also what you (and any other rational person, including myself) would call it if roles were reversed and it was any other racial or ethnic group not allowing Indigenous players into their teams, in other words I'm pointing out your rank hypocrisy. 3 hours ago, Dunbar said: Well, the answer to that is that the world is complicated and you cannot paint black and white lines... you have to take into account the historical and cultural sensitivities and use some actual judgement to see what is appropriate or not. Firstly, if you don't have black and white lines under the law that apply to everybody, then you don't have equality, and if you don't have equality under the law then you've got the beginnings of a very bad situation. If I or anybody else did what the Indigenous All Stars are doing then we'd be at least heavily fined, if not be facing jail time for repeat offences. Secondly, take historical and cultural sensitivities into account all you like, but if you are going to don't be selective on who's historical and cultural sensitivities you are taking into account, because again, if you do you are discriminating. Personally, I think that by obsessively focusing on the past that you are just reopening old wounds that would heal on their own if you just left them alone. And before you say it, sure the Indigenous population has had a horrendous time throughout Australian history, you know who else has had a terrible time throughout Australian history: pretty much everybody that wasn't part of the upper class or aristocracy that moved to Australia as free settlers from Britain, Europe, and America pre WWI, and anybody that made up the upper class post WWII, i.e. 95%+ of the population in Australia at any one time. There is systematic discrimination and all sorts of atrocities perpetrated against all sorts of people throughout Australia's history, yet you are singling out one group's history and saying that their history and cultural sensitivities need to be singled out for particular attention, when really there're at least half a dozen groups who's histories are similarly horrendous in various ways. 3 hours ago, Dunbar said: I am ok if you think that a representative team celebrating the European heritage of Australians would be ok. I am in the corner that's says it would be inappropriate. I am happy for us to disagree on such matters. I'm in the corner that racial and/or ethnic discrimination, or any discrimination based on immutable characteristics, is wrong full stop! Except in extremely rare circumstances we shouldn't be discriminating at all So if you are going to allow Indigenous people to have racially/ethnically exclusive teams then you've got to let everybody have them, but my preference would be to not have them at all. 3 hours ago, Dunbar said: What I will say is that I think you are being sensationalist to say that the selection of representative Rugby League teams is in someway analogous to the discriminatory systems that effected the Indigenous population of Australia in the countries past. Firstly, except to say that both are a form of racial/ethnic discrimination I never said that it was analogous to the discriminatory systems that effected the Indigenous population of Australia. However in saying that I think that any Indigenous person would (rightly) say that Indigenous people being excluded from selection for sports teams (particularly representative teams) was symptomatic of the systematic discrimination of Indigenous people in Australia, so maybe it isn't as sensationalist as you think. What I'll also say is that two wrongs don't make a right, and discriminating against other people in a silly attempt to make up for prior discrimination to another group is the definition of the road to hell is paved with good intentions, all you are doing is repeating the exact same mistakes that were made before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aj1908 Posted February 9, 2020 Share Posted February 9, 2020 lol every thread people want to talk politics AOB >>>>> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidM Posted February 9, 2020 Share Posted February 9, 2020 What was the question again ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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