All Stars...

[Dunbar]

23 minutes ago, The Great Dane said:

They've been brought in because teams that are selecting based on race or ethnicity are literally discriminating based on race and ethnicity, there is no other word for it.

 That is also what you (and any other rational person, including myself) would call it if roles were reversed and it was any other racial or ethnic group not allowing Indigenous players into their teams, in other words I'm pointing out your rank hypocrisy.

Firstly, if you don't have black and white lines under the law that apply to everybody, then you don't have equality, and  if you don't have equality under the law then you've got the beginnings of a very bad situation. If I or anybody else did what the Indigenous All Stars are doing then we'd be at least heavily fined, if not be facing jail time for repeat offences.

Secondly, take historical and cultural sensitivities into account all you like, but if you are going to don't be selective on who's historical and cultural sensitivities you are taking into account, because again, if you do you are discriminating. Personally, I think that by obsessively focusing on the past that you are just reopening old wounds that would heal on their own if you just left them alone.

And before you say it, sure the Indigenous population has had a horrendous time throughout Australian history, you know who else has had a terrible time throughout Australian history: pretty much everybody that wasn't part of the upper class or aristocracy that moved to Australia as free settlers from Britain, Europe, and America pre WWI, and anybody that made up the upper class post WWII, i.e. 95%+ of the population in Australia at any one time.

There is systematic discrimination and all sorts of atrocities perpetrated against all sorts of people throughout Australia's history, yet you are singling out one group's history and saying that their history and cultural sensitivities need to be singled out for particular attention, when really there're at least half a dozen groups who's histories are similarly horrendous in various ways.

I'm in the corner that racial and/or ethnic discrimination, or any discrimination based on immutable characteristics, is wrong full stop! 

Except in extremely rare circumstances we shouldn't be discriminating at all

So if you are going to allow Indigenous people to have racially/ethnically exclusive teams then you've got to let everybody have them, but my preference would be to not have them at all.

Firstly, except to say that both are form of racial/ethnic discrimination, I never said that it was analogous to the discriminatory systems that effected the Indigenous population of Australia, however in saying that I think that any Indigenous person would (rightly) say that Indigenous people being excluded from selection for sports teams (particularly representative teams) was symptomatic of the systematic discrimination of Indigenous people in Australia, so maybe it isn't as sensationalist as you think.

What I'll also say is that two wrongs don't make a right, and discriminating against other people in silly attempt to make up for prior discrimination to another group is the definition of the road to hell is paved with good intentions, all you are doing is repeating the exact same mistakes that were made before. 

I agree with many of your underlying principles in this post and I am not a fan of 'identity politics' which is becoming more and more prevalent which I believe is divisive and dangerous.  Does the Indigenous game perpetuate the divisions in Australian culture or does it celebrate the native populations heritage?  If the former it is dangerous and if the latter it is fine... of course, the answer as always is that it is somewhere in between.

I do take exception to your description of my 'rank hypocrisy' though.  You cite the case where if the roles were reversed and it was any other racial or ethnic group not allowing Indigenous players into their teams it would be described as racist.

However, as I have pointed out earlier in the thread, whether you agree with the Indigenous teams or not, there is a massive difference between a team that represents (or celebrates) a specific culture and one which states that certain individual or specific racial or ethnic groups cannot be selected.

I do not believe I am a hypocrite for pointing out this obvious difference.

[Sports Prophet]

3 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

Ok, let me try to be as clear as possible.

Scenario 1. A tour of the UK is organised and the team is selected from the Indigenous population of Australia.

Scenario 2. A tour of the UK is organised and the team is selected from the population of Australia with the exception of the Indigenous players who are not considered for selection.

Do you think both of these two policies are the same and are both ok?

You’re wasting your time.

[Dunbar]

4 minutes ago, Sports Prophet said:

You’re wasting your time.

Yes, I suspect that I am.

[The Great Dane]

1 hour ago, Dunbar said:

I agree with many of your underlying principles in this post and I am not a fan of 'identity politics' which is becoming more and more prevalent which I believe is divisive and dangerous.  Does the Indigenous game perpetuate the divisions in Australian culture or does it celebrate the native populations heritage?  If the former it is dangerous and if the latter it is fine... of course, the answer as always is that it is somewhere in between.

The Indigenous All Stars are a relatively minor example amongst much more egregious ones, but it definitely perpetuates the divisions in Australian society in a pernicious way.

1 hour ago, Dunbar said:

I do take exception to your description of my 'rank hypocrisy' though.  You cite the case where if the roles were reversed and it was any other racial or ethnic group not allowing Indigenous players into their teams it would be described as racist.

However, as I have pointed out earlier in the thread, whether you agree with the Indigenous teams or not, there is a massive difference between a team that represents (or celebrates) a specific culture and one which states that certain individual or specific racial or ethnic groups cannot be selected.

I do not believe I am a hypocrite for pointing out this obvious difference.

Firstly, you can celebrate culture without discriminating against people. I also don't accept that culture is the key point here. If this was about culture it'd just be people sharing and enjoying culture, not people literally having to prove their ancestry to participate...

Secondly, the only difference between a team that represents a specific race/ethnicity at the exclusion of others and one that states that people of a certain race/ethnicity can't participate are the people that are being discriminated against. 

Both are discriminating based on immutable characteristics, it's just who they are discriminating against and why they are discriminating that is different.

Your celebrates the culture stuff is just mental gymnastics to try justify a position you wouldn't normally hold.

Finally, you can take exception to being described as a hypocrite all you like, but you are condoning people engaging in behaviour that you would normally criticise others for participating in, and that my friend is a form of hypocrisy.

[Dunbar]

27 minutes ago, The Great Dane said:

Finally, you can take exception to being described as a hypocrite all you like, but you are condoning people engaging in behaviour that you would normally criticise others for participating in, and that my friend is a form of hypocrisy.

I have stated that I believe there is a significant difference between a team such as the All Stars with a specific group being represented and the idea that a group be excluded from wider a participation based on their characteristics.

Seeing as though you are so intent in calling me a hypocrite, can I ask you to provide me with an example of the behaviour that "I would normally criticise" that is analogous to supporting the concept of the Indigenous team.

[Click]

Looks like they're really discriminating against those white Australians in the Indigenous All Stars team.

[Click]

I think a lot of people don't seem to understand the difference between having an Indigenous team or a Maori team, is that in these instances they tend to be the "dominated" culture, and the other heritage is the "winner", they are experiencing their culture 24/7 365 days of the year, whereas a lot of people that have their heritage in roots like the Indigenous and Maori don't experience it and don't live in it. They have events that celebrate it to bring it to the new generations that don't know where they come from.

[aj1908]

Guys it's a game to pay homage to aboriginal players and their contribution to the game.

Unlike afl league has a very good record in this regard 

If you are interested Google racism in the afl.  Adam goodes was booed for years and I mean for the whole game.  He was basically forced out of the afl

[The Great Dane]

9 hours ago, Click said:

I think a lot of people don't seem to understand the difference between having an Indigenous team or a Maori team, is that in these instances they tend to be the "dominated" culture, and the other heritage is the "winner", they are experiencing their culture 24/7 365 days of the year, whereas a lot of people that have their heritage in roots like the Indigenous and Maori don't experience it and don't live in it. They have events that celebrate it to bring it to the new generations that don't know where they come from.

That still isn't an excuse to discriminate against people!

You can celebrate culture and bring it to new generations without it being necessary to discriminate against other people.

I mean Jesus, this isn't hard.

[Click]

43 minutes ago, The Great Dane said:

That still isn't an excuse to discriminate against people!

You can celebrate culture and bring it to new generations without it being necessary to discriminate against other people.

I mean Jesus, this isn't hard.

The victimhood never ceases to amaze me at times. No one is being discriminated against.

[aj1908]

2 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

Dont be ridiculous, having an indigenous team is no more discriminatory than having a queensland team

it depends if you see positive discrimination as discrimination.  some would say yes, others no.

[Dunbar]

The argument for discrimination is "if people of indigenous decent can have a representative team to celebrate their culture, why can't those of Western European decent have their own representative team"

Of course this argument only stands up for those people with absolutely zero cultural sensitivity or common sense.

[Bert1]

Could Offiah etc play in an indigenous British team? Imagine saying that to him! Stupid idea and not singing the Anthem just creates bigger issues. 
 

Happy to take the ££ for years and now they have issues. 

[Dunbar]

3 minutes ago, Bert1 said:

Could Offiah etc play in an indigenous British team? Imagine saying that to him

You do know what Indigenous means don't you?

[gingerjon]

17 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

You do know what Indigenous means don't you?

"Was it a hot day in Barnsley when you born?"

That sort of thing.

[DavidM]

Just now, gingerjon said:

"Was it a hot day in Barnsley when you born?"

That sort of thing.

Sounds like that’s right  out of the Prince Phillip book of quotes!

[gingerjon]

Just now, DavidM said:

Sounds like that’s right  out of the Prince Phillip book of quotes!

My grandparents, including the war hero (who basically lied but, fair play, he was at least somewhere near France on D-day and it still plugging away) had a somewhat unreconstructed attitude to race which included finding anyone who was 'non white' but who had a British regional accent to be the funniest things they could imagine.

That line is a direct lift from them.

 

[Moove]

Haha what the actual chuff is this thread? Isn't Offiah getting a bit old to be picked for a team anyway?

[Bert1]

1 hour ago, Dunbar said:

You do know what Indigenous means don't you?

Yes. And if you take it to it’s truest meaning none of the Aus lads are.

[The Great Dane]

15 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

Dont be ridiculous, having an indigenous team is no more discriminatory than having a queensland team

There is a massive difference between being a Queenslander and being Indigenous, namely being a Queenslander doesn't include immutable characteristics.

In other words Jackie Chan could wake up tomorrow, decide he likes Queensland, move there and become a citizen, whack on a Maroon wig, and boom he's a Queenslander. Now I grant that for practicality reasons he still wouldn't be eligible to play for Queensland, but that is a separate discussion. 

However if Jackie Chan woke up tomorrow and decided he wanted to be Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander he couldn't, because just as they say you don't choose your family, you can't choose your ancestry either.

15 hours ago, Click said:

The victimhood never ceases to amaze me at times. No one is being discriminated against.

It is literally written into the rules of the Indigenous All Stars that you must be part of a certain race and/or ethnicity to play for them, it is literally illegal to do that in this country but a blind eye is turned to it because reasons.

In other words not only would it not be socially acceptable for any other group to do it, but if they tried to do it, and it came out publicly that they were doing it, it'd be reported to the Human Rights Commission and they'd be charged with racial and ethnic discrimination! 

That is the literal definition of double standards and discrimination.

I also don't think that it's unfair for people to bring up that if it weren't illegal for there to be Anglo-Saxon or just European equivalents of the Indigenous All Stars, Koori and Murri cups, or for example Aboriginal Health centers (yes they exist, and yes they will literally turn away people that aren't Indigenous), that it'd make international news and everybody would be piling on about how racist it is. That is undeniably a massive double standard.

8 hours ago, Dunbar said:

The argument for discrimination is "if people of indigenous decent can have a representative team to celebrate their culture, why can't those of Western European decent have their own representative team"

Of course this argument only stands up for those people with absolutely zero cultural sensitivity or common sense.

There you go again, out of one side of your mouth you say things like 'we should have an equal society' then out the other you say things like 'but these people should have special privileges because reasons'.

Also your cultural sensitivity is highly selective, not only Indigenous people were treated terribly in Australian history mate. I mean just look up Blackbirding, Celtic peoples history (particularly, but not exclusively, Irish and Scottish Highlanders), what happened to the German part of South Australia, or for that matter Japanese Australians during WWII, or anybody that wasn't white that was living in Australia during the White Australia policy, not to mention the convicts and their descendants for generation. I could go on but, hopefully, you get the point. 

Like all countries history Australia's is full of atrocities (and frankly Britain shares in most of Australia's atrocities), but focusing on only the negative parts of Australia's history isn't helpful, but hyper focusing on one particular part is downright damaging to the culture and social cohesiveness in this country. So if we must constantly focus on the negative aspects of Australia's history, then at least be even handed with it. 

BTW, when do we start the German ethnic representative footy team? I imagine that'll go down swimmingly lol.

[The Great Dane]

8 hours ago, Bert1 said:

Yes. And if you take it to it’s truest meaning none of the Aus lads are.

I see what you are saying: When did the dingo stop being considered invasive and start being considered native, and if the Dingo can be considered native at all then at what point can e.g. foxes expect the same treatment. It's an interesting philosophical question.

I've heard Joe Rogan talk about a similar quandary that Hawaiians are having on his podcast before.

Ecologists, environmentalists, and the government in Hawaii want to eradicate feral pigs, but native Hawaiians hold feral pigs as culturally significant (and traditionally one of their main sources of food) so they don't want them eradicated, and they (the native Hawaiians) asked the question of if the pigs aren't considered native at this point then can we (native Hawaiians) truly be considered "native".

Also you are right, if there was a British/English equivalent of the Indigenous All-Stars Martin Offiah wouldn't qualify. . . 

[aj1908]

Omg this thread went full weird 

 

[Dunbar]

5 hours ago, The Great Dane said:

There you go again, out of one side of your mouth you say things like 'we should have an equal society' then out the other you say things like 'but these people should have special privileges because reasons'.

Also your cultural sensitivity is highly selective, not only Indigenous people were treated terribly in Australian history mate. I mean just look up Blackbirding, Celtic peoples history (particularly, but not exclusively, Irish and Scottish Highlanders), what happened to the German part of South Australia, or for that matter Japanese Australians during WWII, or anybody that wasn't white that was living in Australia during the White Australia policy, not to mention the convicts and their descendants for generation. I could go on but, hopefully, you get the point. 

Like all countries history Australia's is full of atrocities (and frankly Britain shares in most of Australia's atrocities), but focusing on only the negative parts of Australia's history isn't helpful, but hyper focusing on one particular part is downright damaging to the culture and social cohesiveness in this country. So if we must constantly focus on the negative aspects of Australia's history, then at least be even handed with it. 

BTW, when do we start the German ethnic representative footy team? I imagine that'll go down swimmingly lol.

I am getting a little fed up with the way you are approaching this discussion.

Firstly, you call me out for my 'rank hypocrisy' and now you are saying that I speak from 'one side of my mouth' and 'then out of the other' (with a made up quote that you attribute to me as something I would be likely to say).

I am happy to discuss the merits of the Indigenous game and the wider consequences of creating these types of events and I also believe (as I have stated before on this thread) that you have some very sound points that I agree on.

But we disagree on other parts and I would ask that you concentrate on the discussion in hand and refrain from the comments on my character. 

[Click]

6 hours ago, The Great Dane said:

There is a massive difference between being a Queenslander and being Indigenous, namely being a Queenslander doesn't include immutable characteristics.

In other words Jackie Chan could wake up tomorrow, decide he likes Queensland, move there and become a citizen, whack on a Maroon wig, and boom he's a Queenslander. Now I grant that for practicality reasons he still wouldn't be eligible to play for Queensland, but that is a separate discussion. 

However if Jackie Chan woke up tomorrow and decided he wanted to be Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander he couldn't, because just as they say you don't choose your family, you can't choose your ancestry either.

It is literally written into the rules of the Indigenous All Stars that you must be part of a certain race and/or ethnicity to play for them, it is literally illegal to do that in this country but a blind eye is turned to it because reasons.

In other words not only would it not be socially acceptable for any other group to do it, but if they tried to do it, and it came out publicly that they were doing it, it'd be reported to the Human Rights Commission and they'd be charged with racial and ethnic discrimination! 

That is the literal definition of double standards and discrimination.

I also don't think that it's unfair for people to bring up that if it weren't illegal for there to be Anglo-Saxon or just European equivalents of the Indigenous All Stars, Koori and Murri cups, or for example Aboriginal Health centers (yes they exist, and yes they will literally turn away people that aren't Indigenous), that it'd make international news and everybody would be piling on about how racist it is. That is undeniably a massive double standard.

There you go again, out of one side of your mouth you say things like 'we should have an equal society' then out the other you say things like 'but these people should have special privileges because reasons'.

Also your cultural sensitivity is highly selective, not only Indigenous people were treated terribly in Australian history mate. I mean just look up Blackbirding, Celtic peoples history (particularly, but not exclusively, Irish and Scottish Highlanders), what happened to the German part of South Australia, or for that matter Japanese Australians during WWII, or anybody that wasn't white that was living in Australia during the White Australia policy, not to mention the convicts and their descendants for generation. I could go on but, hopefully, you get the point. 

Like all countries history Australia's is full of atrocities (and frankly Britain shares in most of Australia's atrocities), but focusing on only the negative parts of Australia's history isn't helpful, but hyper focusing on one particular part is downright damaging to the culture and social cohesiveness in this country. So if we must constantly focus on the negative aspects of Australia's history, then at least be even handed with it. 

BTW, when do we start the German ethnic representative footy team? I imagine that'll go down swimmingly lol.

Completely, when I see the likes of George Rose, Cory Paterson, Jamie Soward, Greg Bird, Aiden Sezer, Jack Wighton, Tyrone Roberts and the like - The first thing I think of is how they different they look to other races in Australia.

[The Great Dane]

1 hour ago, scotchy1 said:

Cool, so Sam Burgess could have played in Origin. Interesting.

Well no, because he isn't eligible under other criteria (but that is a whole other discussion), But if he wants to be he has as much claim to be a NSWelshmen as anybody else.

1 hour ago, Click said:

Completely, when I see the likes of George Rose, Cory Paterson, Jamie Soward, Greg Bird, Aiden Sezer, Jack Wighton, Tyrone Roberts and the like - The first thing I think of is how they different they look to other races in Australia.

Honestly I don't even want to touch this one.

However, I will say that if you have a problem with the standards of the Indigenous All-Star's purity tests then that is nothing to do with me, and you should take it up with them.

Personally, I don't think we should have purity tests at all, but that is just me.