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Shaun Wane’s first England squad (merged threads)


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15 hours ago, Chris22 said:

...

Another big decision is what Wane does with Roby, O Loughlin and Graham who are towards the back end of their careers. Is it time to phase them out for Clarke (playing a bigger role), Knowles and Watts?

A fair list, a few choices are marginal but such is the way of these opinions.

Sadly I believe we need to let go Lockers, Roby and Graham even though I admire Graham greatly. Injuries are the main issue here.

Wigan have 3 useful wingers if they are fit, the leading one might get a nod.

But getting its 2 half backs sorted and working with the nr9 (Clarke) and the rest of the team has got to be a must.

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13 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

I think there is probably a subtle difference.

An 'inform' player is playing the best they can while the best available is the highest quality player available. But the two are very much related as you would not pick a player who has played well in the past but not currently playing well.

I would summarise by saying pick the best performing players when the squad is selected.

And (critically) pick them in their correct positions. I think we have suffered in the past by trying to shoehorn the best 13 players into the team rather than picking the best side.

How so very true, and No 6 is most probably the position that had been abused most, since the days of Tony Myler and Garry Schofield we have been far to defensive in this position, the coaches at the time could have picked Lee Briers or Tommy Martyn or Paul Cooke guys with vision, ideas and skill but chose to pick a forward usually, let's hope those times are well and truly in history.

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1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

 

Let's forget the old guard of Hill, Graham, Roby, Hall, Mcgilavray, O'Loughlin Hodgeson even Hastings and Austin, it is the start of a new era under Shaun Wane, time to be radical and change the near 50 year drought of a test series win, we do have the personnel to get the job done, have faith pick the lads in form and get it done.

How are Hastings & Austin,old guard ? 

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On the impact of Haas, did no one see SBW play when he was 19? He was outstanding. Him and Burgess are the best two teenage forwards I have seen. Haas is very good but not in the same league as those two.

It'll be interesting to see what Wane goes with. I'm sure he'll have no problem giving youth its chance and hopefully he will pick on form.

Graham is an interesting one. Most people would acknowledge he probably isn't international class anymore but then do you keep him around for leadership. 

I'd expect Hill, Hall, McGillvary to probably go but you never know. 

Half back is the most interesting. Two positions with lots of contenders and no real obvious choice, particularly now Widdop is a little older and playing in SL. If Williams can make a good go of his time in Canberra, I'd put him in pole position for one of the spots considering his connection to Wane. I still wouldn't mind Widdop in there too if form warrants it. His experience is valuable even if he's not always been at his best for England.

Hoping a few young blokes push through into contention this year. There are spots in the backline and in the middle that are up for grabs. Maybe people like Jack Walker, Newman, Smithies can make a push.

Lastly, I hope Ben Currie can have a good injury free year. He was one of our best players coming through until a couple of bad injuries. He has the potential to be world class imo.

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6 minutes ago, Tex Evans Thigh said:

On the impact of Haas, did no one see SBW play when he was 19? He was outstanding. Him and Burgess are the best two teenage forwards I have seen. Haas is very good but not in the same league as those two.

I think Haas is a very different type of player than SBW and Burgess... the latter two were very dynamic with the ability to turn a game with a single play whereas Haas is a metre eating machine.

I would classify David Fafita as being more like  a young SBW and Burgess.

"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

"If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris

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7 minutes ago, FearTheVee said:

No

I agree. Just wonder whether Wane will want him. Probably depends on how he goes for St George but I can't see him breaking any pots this year. Wouldn't be surprised if he's not a regular there.

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18 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

I think Haas is a very different type of player than SBW and Burgess... the latter two were very dynamic with the ability to turn a game with a single play whereas Haas is a metre eating machine.

I would classify David Fafita as being more like  a young SBW and Burgess.

Probably, although I've seen Haas do a couple of game changing things. The point was that someone (might have been you) said that Haas and Fafita are the best young forwards ever to play the game. I disagree, I think Burgess and SBW were both better and that's taking nothing away from Haas or Fafita who are both excellent.

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Just now, Tex Evans Thigh said:

Probably, although I've seen Haas do a couple of game changing things. The point was that someone (might have been you) said that Haas and Fafita are the best young forwards ever to play the game. I disagree, I think Burgess and SBW were both better and that's taking nothing away from Haas or Fafita who are both excellent.

It was me. And you are right, it may have been a little dramatic but I am happy to stand by it... particularly Haas because I don't think we have seen an athlete like him in the game... such size but athleticism as well.

Anyway. They are both superb... as were Burgess and SBW and they developed into great players with superb careers.

Just wish they were English.

"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

"If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris

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44 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

It was me. And you are right, it may have been a little dramatic but I am happy to stand by it... particularly Haas because I don't think we have seen an athlete like him in the game... such size but athleticism as well.

Anyway. They are both superb... as were Burgess and SBW and they developed into great players with superb careers.

Just wish they were English.

David Taylor coukd have been anything he wanted to be, but never really put his mind to it 22st 5lb 6'-02" mobile fast and what a side step for a big un.

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6 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

David Taylor coukd have been anything he wanted to be, but never really put his mind to it 22st 5lb 6'-02" mobile fast and what a side step for a big un.

good call that.

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23 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

David Taylor coukd have been anything he wanted to be, but never really put his mind to it 22st 5lb 6'-02" mobile fast and what a side step for a big un.

 

17 minutes ago, Tex Evans Thigh said:

good call that.

He certainly was big, athletic and mobile.  But I don't think he ever had the engine and work rate that Haas has.

Anyway, happy to see how the next few years pan out for him and Fifita.

"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

"If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris

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2 hours ago, Tex Evans Thigh said:

Half back is the most interesting. Two positions with lots of contenders and no real obvious choice, particularly now Widdop is a little older and playing in SL. If Williams can make a good go of his time in Canberra, I'd put him in pole position for one of the spots considering his connection to Wane.

Agreed. If Williams is a success Down Under - unpicking Aussie defences - then you’d say he’s odds-on to be starting half-back for the Ashes.

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45 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

David Taylor coukd have been anything he wanted to be, but never really put his mind to it 22st 5lb 6'-02" mobile fast and what a side step for a big un.

Very good kicker also.  I watched him messing about at a Catalans training session, grubbing the ball at the corner flag.  He hit it quite a few times and Carney didn’t get close.  Amazing ball handler too.  Waste of talent.

 

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2 hours ago, Tex Evans Thigh said:

Probably, although I've seen Haas do a couple of game changing things. The point was that someone (might have been you) said that Haas and Fafita are the best young forwards ever to play the game. I disagree, I think Burgess and SBW were both better and that's taking nothing away from Haas or Fafita who are both excellent.

I put Haas above Burgess at that age. It's easy to say 'Burgess destroyed Moi Moi when he was 18 so hes better'.

Haas's first full nrl season was much better than Burgess's. And Burgess was 21 years old in his first year. People forget that it took Burgess a couple of season until he really started to dominate.

Playing 80 minutes some games at 130kgs as an 18/19 year old kid is insane.

Just my opinion. 

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I think you can use superlatives with Haas and Fifita . They’re very very special , freakish , rare talents I reckon , and they’re basically still kids . I’m excited to see them over here , they’re both certainties .

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1 hour ago, AB90 said:

I put Haas above Burgess at that age. It's easy to say 'Burgess destroyed Moi Moi when he was 18 so hes better'.

Haas's first full nrl season was much better than Burgess's. And Burgess was 21 years old in his first year. People forget that it took Burgess a couple of season until he really started to dominate.

Playing 80 minutes some games at 130kgs as an 18/19 year old kid is insane.

Just my opinion. 

Burgess was playing well for GB vs NZ and Aus before he even went to the NRL. It wasn't just the Moi Moi mismatch, he was doing good things consistently. Haas is also very good but he's not done anything at rep level yet. 

It's all subjective and they are/were both very good players, outliers in fact.

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Just a thought for Wane's 17 -

Shaul,   Makinson, Gildart, Percival, Johnstone,   Lomax, Williams,    T Burgess Hodgson, Thompson, Bateman, Whitehead, Ward.  Bench - Walmsley, Taylor, Currie, Connor.

Might be a few surprises though as everyone "knows" what Waney wants from his teams. 

 

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1 hour ago, AB90 said:

I put Haas above Burgess at that age. It's easy to say 'Burgess destroyed Moi Moi when he was 18 so hes better'.

Haas's first full nrl season was much better than Burgess's. And Burgess was 21 years old in his first year. People forget that it took Burgess a couple of season until he really started to dominate.

Playing 80 minutes some games at 130kgs as an 18/19 year old kid is insane.

Just my opinion. 

Did you see the 2009 4N final when Burgess tore the Aussies apart? He was only 20 at the time. Just because he wasn't in the NRL at 18 doesn't mean he wasn't world class. Watch this at 11.40 - people forget how devastating he was as a kid.

 

 

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32 minutes ago, Tex Evans Thigh said:

Burgess was playing well for GB vs NZ and Aus before he even went to the NRL. It wasn't just the Moi Moi mismatch, he was doing good things consistently. Haas is also very good but he's not done anything at rep level yet. 

It's all subjective and they are/were both very good players, outliers in fact.

I am not being argumentative because I think we are all agreed that Haas and Burgess were both very good at 19.

But I feel obliged to point that on the international front Haas has played two tests for the Kangaroos.

Against New Zealand in a 26:4 win, Haas played 37 minutes off the bench and made 174 running metres which was the best of any forward on the park.  A week later he played against Tonga and in a 16:12 defeat he came off the bench, played 44 minutes, and made the most metres of any Australian forward (123) with only Havili and Taumalolo for Tonga making more.

At 19, he was the most effective middle forward for the Kangaroos - I think that's doing something at rep level.

"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

"If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris

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13 minutes ago, Scubby said:

Did you see the 2009 4N final when Burgess tore the Aussies apart? He was only 20 at the time. Just because he wasn't in the NRL at 18 doesn't mean he wasn't world class. Watch this at 11.40 - people forget how devastating he was as a kid.

 

 

Fyi - Burgess is a freak and one my favourite players.

I only made the nrl comparison as it's a larger body of work and they both play in it.

As I mentioned, it took Burgess 2 to 3 years to really start to dominating. He made his first 'Dally M' team of the year in 2014 (Lock of the tear) at 25 years of age in his 4th nrl season.

Payne Haas made the Dally M team of the year in 2019 (prop of the year). As a 19 year old. 

Both amazing players.

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19 hours ago, Dunbar said:

I am not being argumentative because I think we are all agreed that Haas and Burgess were both very good at 19.

But I feel obliged to point that on the international front Haas has played two tests for the Kangaroos.

Against New Zealand in a 26:4 win, Haas played 37 minutes off the bench and made 174 running metres which was the best of any forward on the park.  A week later he played against Tonga and in a 16:12 defeat he came off the bench, played 44 minutes, and made the most metres of any Australian forward (123) with only Havili and Taumalolo for Tonga making more.

At 19, he was the most effective middle forward for the Kangaroos - I think that's doing something at rep level.

Fair point, they're decent efforts, particularly the NZ game, but I don't think they are the same impact that Burgess was having. Anyway as you say both top players, Haas now has to elevate himself to world class to be considered similar to the likes of Burgess, SBW, Tallis, Morley etc.

 

18 hours ago, AB90 said:

Fyi - Burgess is a freak and one my favourite players.

I only made the nrl comparison as it's a larger body of work and they both play in it.

As I mentioned, it took Burgess 2 to 3 years to really start to dominating. He made his first 'Dally M' team of the year in 2014 (Lock of the tear) at 25 years of age in his 4th nrl season.

Payne Haas made the Dally M team of the year in 2019 (prop of the year). As a 19 year old. 

Both amazing players.

Disagree slightly on this, only that 'dominating' is subjective. I thought Burgess was pretty good from the get go to be honest. He missed most of his second season with injury but was pretty good every year, peaking in 2014 as you say. Haas last year may well have been better than Burgess in his first year though, that's fair comment.

It makes for an interesting discussion anyway!

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On 10/02/2020 at 15:32, Tex Evans Thigh said:

On the impact of Haas, did no one see SBW play when he was 19? He was outstanding. Him and Burgess are the best two teenage forwards I have seen. Haas is very good but not in the same league as those two.

Agree about SBW and Burgess being outstanding at a young age but what about Bradley Clyde at 19 ? He always seems to get overlooked.

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16 hours ago, Szymala said:

Agree about SBW and Burgess being outstanding at a young age but what about Bradley Clyde at 19 ? He always seems to get overlooked.

There have been some outstanding young players over the years. I don't think Clyde gets overlooked on purpose but SBW and Burgess are more recent and had a greater impact on the game over the course of their careers than Clyde. Add their Union excursions and notoriety and it's only natural that they're at the forefront of people's minds.

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