MZH Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 6 minutes ago, Dunbar said: How the club looks is entirely based on how they deal with this. Indeed. Warrington can't be held accountable for anything he has done. The only way they look bad is if they stand by him or make excuses for him, which I can't imagine they will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hullfan Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 He's knocked his mrs all over, tough man what a bell end Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerjon Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 13 minutes ago, MZH said: Indeed. Warrington can't be held accountable for anything he has done. The only way they look bad is if they stand by him or make excuses for him, which I can't imagine they will. They don't seem to be in a hurry to make any excuses. Right response so far. Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leeds Wire Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davo5 Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 I'll wait until the full facts of the incident are officially disclosed before joining the lynch mob on here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerjon Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 2 minutes ago, Davo5 said: I'll wait until the full facts of the incident are officially disclosed before joining the lynch mob on here. So, should Wire suspend him or not? Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 9 minutes ago, gingerjon said: So, should Wire suspend him or not? (I know you didn't ask me but...) As with all of these cases. If he has admitted involvement which he seems to have done based on the club statement then yes. If he is protesting innocence then no as we do not assume guilt (which is why I don't like the NRL No Fault Stand Down policy). "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tex Evans Thigh Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 Amazing how something like this gets thrown up right in the middle of Folau firestorm for way of comparison. If these allegations are proven then I assume, and hope, Warrington will let him go and SL/RFL would look to stop him from playing for a period, perhaps indefinitely. This to me is much worse than what Folau has done previously. If he receives a punishment and shows remorse then perhaps he could be allowed some redemption and play again at a later date. I think this is where the Folau thing is different. He never really served any form of punishment legally and showed no remorse, in fact doubled down on his views, hence why sports have distanced themselves from him. Although the 'crime' is different, it is the equivalent of a domestic abuser saying domestic abuse is fine and continuing to go around beating up women. Formerly Alistair Boyd-Meaney fifty thousand Poouunds from Keighley...weve had im gid." MIPM Project Management and Business Solutions " Discounts available for forum members contact me for details Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 2 minutes ago, Dunbar said: (I know you didn't ask me but...) As with all of these cases. If he has admitted involvement which he seems to have done based on the club statement then yes. If he is protesting innocence then no as we do not assume guilt (which is why I don't like the NRL No Fault Stand Down policy). Would that be the case? Even if he denies something, if there was an ellegation, wouldn't you suspend him pending investigation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerjon Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 1 minute ago, Dave T said: Would that be the case? Even if he denies something, if there was an ellegation, wouldn't you suspend him pending investigation? I think something as serious as this that he has to be suspended. That may turn out not to be 'fair' but the police involvement and the nature of the incident mean you have to respond. Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 1 minute ago, Dave T said: Would that be the case? Even if he denies something, if there was an ellegation, wouldn't you suspend him pending investigation? Personally I am not a big fan of punishing anyone without proven guilt. I guess it depends on how strong the initial evidence is that the club has access to. I look at the NRL policy and see players having full seasons lost due to a stand down policy while still maintaining innocence. I think that is terrible. For consistency, I cannot condone it here then. I just believe the assumption of innocence until proven otherwise is a really important foundation. Of course if guilt is established then I support very strong measures. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Man of Kent Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/feb/12/anthony-gelling-stood-down-by-warrington-amid-off-field-investigation-rugby-league Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MZH Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 6 minutes ago, Tex Evans Thigh said: Amazing how something like this gets thrown up right in the middle of Folau firestorm for way of comparison. If these allegations are proven then I assume, and hope, Warrington will let him go and SL/RFL would look to stop him from playing for a period, perhaps indefinitely. This to me is much worse than what Folau has done previously. If he receives a punishment and shows remorse then perhaps he could be allowed some redemption and play again at a later date. I think this is where the Folau thing is different. He never really served any form of punishment legally and showed no remorse, in fact doubled down on his views, hence why sports have distanced themselves from him. Although the 'crime' is different, it is the equivalent of a domestic abuser saying domestic abuse is fine and continuing to go around beating up women. That's not really a good comparison since Folau has never actually harmed anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MZH Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 3 minutes ago, Dunbar said: Personally I am not a big fan of punishing anyone without proven guilt. I guess it depends on how strong the initial evidence is that the club has access to. I look at the NRL policy and see players having full seasons lost due to a stand down policy while still maintaining innocence. I think that is terrible. For consistency, I cannot condone it here then. I just believe the assumption of innocence until proven otherwise is a really important foundation. Of course if guilt is established then I support very strong measures. Standing him down shouldn't necessarily to be seen as a punishment though. In cases like this it's probably a good idea to stand him down even if you think he is innocent, just to keep him out of the firing line whilst things play out. Imagine what the atmosphere would be like if he were selected at the weekend. Its not good for anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angelic Cynic Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 1 hour ago, FearTheVee said: Wonder if the Wire cEO will brag about beating Wigan to his signing in the statement then cancel a press conference . . . . Really bad news for player, his family, Wire and SL. If the rumours are tru he shouldn't be allowed back on a British RL pitch. I wonder what your good friends at Wigan think after the comments from the owner of the Wigan club stood by Zak Hardaker,with their duty of care as employers,to address the fundamental problems,that should and could have been confronted already. Tompkins and his drunken abuse,misogyny,which may have meant breweries,employers of female staff,female owners,et al may have withdrawn sponsorship.( Whoever signed that threat to the squeaky clean Super League brand? ) Now,another from the Wigan conveyor belt involved in an incident with a female. Bit more serious than quotes from a publication no one believes in;about a place no one believes in - except those solicitors who have lengthy Christmas breaks. https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/sport/rugby-league/castleford-tigers/wigan-to-stand-by-hardaker-in-wake-of-drink-driving-conviction-1-9404948 No reserves,but resilience,persistence and determination are omnipotent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 3 minutes ago, MZH said: Standing him down shouldn't necessarily to be seen as a punishment though. In cases like this it's probably a good idea to stand him down even if you think he is innocent, just to keep him out of the firing line whilst things play out. Imagine what the atmosphere would be like if he were selected at the weekend. Its not good for anyone. How long do you stand players down for without them being proved guilty? The most famous case in Australia saw a player stood down on the 28th of February 2019 and he hasn't played since. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattrhino Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 5 minutes ago, Dunbar said: Personally I am not a big fan of punishing anyone without proven guilt. I guess it depends on how strong the initial evidence is that the club has access to. I look at the NRL policy and see players having full seasons lost due to a stand down policy while still maintaining innocence. I think that is terrible. For consistency, I cannot condone it here then. I just believe the assumption of innocence until proven otherwise is a really important foundation. Of course if guilt is established then I support very strong measures. Unfortunately many sports leagues have embedded itself with social media and outrage culture. Where any hint of any wrong doing either criminal or just actions or comments that go against the social justice ideals of the day lead to sacking or suspension without due process. Unfortunately for these organisations they are not the best people to police morality. The road to Hell is paved with good intentions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 4 minutes ago, Dunbar said: How long do you stand players down for without them being proved guilty? The most famous case in Australia saw a player stood down on the 28th of February 2019 and he hasn't played since. It is a tough one, but it wouldn't sit well with me having somebody playing with serious allegations hanging over them. I don't think there is a perfect solution, but I support Wire's approach here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davo5 Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 5 minutes ago, Angelic Cynic said: I wonder what your good friends at Wigan think after the comments from the owner of the Wigan club stood by Zak Hardaker,with their duty of care as employers,to address the fundamental problems,that should and could have been confronted already. Tompkins and his drunken abuse,misogyny,which may have meant breweries,employers of female staff,female owners,et al may have withdrawn sponsorship.( Whoever signed that threat to the squeaky clean Super League brand? ) Now,another from the Wigan conveyor belt involved in an incident with a female. Bit more serious than quotes from a publication no one believes in;about a place no one believes in - except those solicitors who have lengthy Christmas breaks. https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/sport/rugby-league/castleford-tigers/wigan-to-stand-by-hardaker-in-wake-of-drink-driving-conviction-1-9404948 Was wondering how long it would take before some halfwit would blame Wigan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 Just now, Davo5 said: Was wondering how long it would take before some halfwit would blame Wigan. It's weird how people take things like this as an opportunity to have digs at a club. The initial dig from Fear the Vee was bizarre, but standard for some certain fans. I have also seen many comments on social media comparing it to the Folau situation as though Wire are somehow hypocrites, despite not actually getting publicly involved with the Folau signing, and moving quickly to suspend Gelling. There was even a suggestion to hold domestic abuse rounds for games vs Warrington. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattrhino Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 I wonder of we will get the whole of the RL press frothing at the mouth to condemn all and get all convicted domestic abusers out of our game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheshire Setter Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 Well it’s a chance to put Widdop back in the halves, keep Ashton at the back as a reward for form, and have Ratchford at centre where he can still add some creativity. Hopefully what he’s done won’t have affected the mindset of the rest of the group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 Just now, Dave T said: It is a tough one, but it wouldn't sit well with me having somebody playing with serious allegations hanging over them. I don't think there is a perfect solution, but I support Wire's approach here. Something like this requires a sensible person at the club to make a decision based on what is known so far and the initial discussion with the player. If the available evidence points to the player having behaved badly (and typically the player will front up and actually look for the club to support/help him) then I am ok with him being stood down pending the outcome of a full investigation. But if a player strongly maintains their innocence and there is no way for the club to know the outcome (as is the case in Australia that I refer to) then I do not believe the player should be stood down before due process is played out. In this case, from what we know so far, I think the club has made a fair and sensible decision. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 1 minute ago, Mattrhino said: I wonder of we will get the whole of the RL press frothing at the mouth to condemn all and get all convicted domestic abusers out of our game. Yes, now is exactly the time to bash the do-gooders. You get 'em told! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
my missus Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 this just makes me so sad for him his family and the game. Through the fish-eyed lens of tear stained eyes I can barely define the shape of this moment in time(roger waters) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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