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Nrl to expand again


aj1908
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1 hour ago, Sports Prophet said:

Well my definition of a fan clearly differs. 

I’ll start w the 70 odd thousand that paid $$$ to watch the GF in 2016. Never before in the history of the sport has there been a more one sided crowd for a club match.

Then we could talk about the extra 50k minimum that we’re watching in pubs, clubs and house parties, who all support Cronulla more than any other club.

This is just one Sydney club’s example. It is up to the NRL and the clubs to convert more of those fleeting fans into the personally invested.

It was only around 1990, when AFL crowds grew exponentially. The AFL clubs were smart and made sure that fixtures were events to be at, rather than games to watch on telly.

Its not beyond Sydney RL clubs to consistently get 25k+ to home games

The far greater willingness of AFL fans to attend games makes the job of their administrators, and decisions on expansion, easier than for the NRL. A second Brisbane franchise however branded will compete with the Broncos for the existing fanbase. If they do so successfully this weakens the Broncos, if unsuccessfully they will struggle to survive. Only if Suncorp were full for Broncos games should we assume pent-up demand for another Brisbane club. Expanding the number of bills to pay without first growing existing crowds will surely lead, within a decade, to a painful retrenchment.

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1 minute ago, unapologetic pedant said:

The far greater willingness of AFL fans to attend games makes the job of their administrators, and decisions on expansion, easier than for the NRL. A second Brisbane franchise however branded will compete with the Broncos for the existing fanbase. If they do so successfully this weakens the Broncos, if unsuccessfully they will struggle to survive. Only if Suncorp were full for Broncos games should we assume pent-up demand for another Brisbane club. Expanding the number of bills to pay without first growing existing crowds will surely lead, within a decade, to a painful retrenchment.

You think people will stop supporting the Broncos and start supporting Brisbane 2? 

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8 minutes ago, Hela Wigmen said:

You think people will stop supporting the Broncos and start supporting Brisbane 2? 

Very unlikely given the Broncos` 32 year head start, but if they don`t where are the fans for Brisbane 2 coming from? Just maybe if the Broncos were consistently at the bottom of the ladder and Brisbane 2 at the top for long enough. Some people can be superficial.

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16 hours ago, unapologetic pedant said:

The far greater willingness of AFL fans to attend games makes the job of their administrators, and decisions on expansion, easier than for the NRL. A second Brisbane franchise however branded will compete with the Broncos for the existing fanbase. If they do so successfully this weakens the Broncos, if unsuccessfully they will struggle to survive. Only if Suncorp were full for Broncos games should we assume pent-up demand for another Brisbane club. Expanding the number of bills to pay without first growing existing crowds will surely lead, within a decade, to a painful retrenchment.

Yeah, I am starting to come back round to the idea that a second Brisbane team is simply not a priority. Why would it be? 

New teams in NZ and Perth really should be the priority.

Edited by Sports Prophet
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17 hours ago, unapologetic pedant said:

The far greater willingness of AFL fans to attend games makes the job of their administrators, and decisions on expansion, easier than for the NRL. A second Brisbane franchise however branded will compete with the Broncos for the existing fanbase. If they do so successfully this weakens the Broncos, if unsuccessfully they will struggle to survive. Only if Suncorp were full for Broncos games should we assume pent-up demand for another Brisbane club. Expanding the number of bills to pay without first growing existing crowds will surely lead, within a decade, to a painful retrenchment.

You do realise that many Brisbane residents can not stand the Broncos?

Do you realise that the Fans of a new Club will not be coming from the Broncos fan base?

You must realise that the second largest Rugby League city in Australia has every second weekend with no local team playing?

I have lived in Brisbane for nearly 20 years and have only gone to a Broncos game a few times when my team was playing the Broncos.

I could not care if the Broncos went broke and I am not alone in that regard.

 

Think about it.

Edited by Allora
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26 minutes ago, Sports Prophet said:

Yeah, I am starting to come back round to the idea that a second Brisbane team is simply not a priority. Why would it be? 

New teams in NZ and Perth really should be the priority.

Really?

The NZ Warriors are on the verge of going broke every other year.

Who is paying for the four hour flights to Perth for 30 people for their home games?

Perth are likely to fold within 3 years if they do not get decent crowds and sponsorships.

Don't forget the ARL brought in the Western Reds only to see them struggle to pay their way and jump to “Super League” the first chance they got.

 

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3 minutes ago, GeordieSaint said:

Why is that out of interest? 

(Sorry if it’s been mentioned elsewhere in the thread)

Many people that live in Brisbane have moved there from NSW and remember Brisbane’s role in the Super League Wars.

They were instrumental in what happened and had been rocking the boat for years after being welcomed into the ARL.

Brisbane for years had Teams that were chock a block with SOO players and dominated the competition, there best player appears to be their Accountant.

They are a team that has reeked of arrogance and had the pick of a massive player feeder system and yet still cherry picked any big name player they wanted from other Clubs.

The Salary cap did nor appear to be in effect for the Broncos for a couple of decades.

Throw in a Coach that some loved but many fans not from the Broncos disliked and you had it all.

I would not watch them for free with a Limo to and from the ground to a Private box.

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23 minutes ago, Allora said:

Many people that live in Brisbane have moved there from NSW and remember Brisbane’s role in the Super League Wars.

They were instrumental in what happened and had been rocking the boat for years after being welcomed into the ARL.

Brisbane for years had Teams that were chock a block with SOO players and dominated the competition, there best player appears to be their Accountant.

They are a team that has reeked of arrogance and had the pick of a massive player feeder system and yet still cherry picked any big name player they wanted from other Clubs.

The Salary cap did nor appear to be in effect for the Broncos for a couple of decades.

Throw in a Coach that some loved but many fans not from the Broncos disliked and you had it all.

I would not watch them for free with a Limo to and from the ground to a Private box.

All of those things may be true, but they're anecdotal and don't provide a solid reason to base a 2nd NRL club in Brisbane. It needs to be much more substantial than that.

How many people are there who like RL so much that they're prepared to pay to watch it on a weekly basis but at the same time dislike the Broncos so intensely that they won't support them? That's your key number. How you establish it, I'm not sure, but it has to be more than sticking a finger in the air and saying "lots of people don't like the Broncos".

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"Just as we had been Cathars, we were treizistes, men apart."

Jean Roque, Calendrier-revue du Racing-Club Albigeois, 1958-1959

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49 minutes ago, Allora said:

Really?

The NZ Warriors are on the verge of going broke every other year.

Who is paying for the four hour flights to Perth for 30 people for their home games?

Perth are likely to fold within 3 years if they do not get decent crowds and sponsorships.

Don't forget the ARL brought in the Western Reds only to see them struggle to pay their way and jump to “Super League” the first chance they got.

 

Do you have any link to the Warriors supposedly going broke every year? I don't seem to recall anything like that.

The billion & multi-million dollar businesses (NRL & Clubs) can't afford domestic flights once a year?

Brisbane2 and the majority of existing clubs are also likely to fold if they don't get decent crowds and sponsorships.

The ARL, Super League and Reds as they were are all long gone. Might be time to move forward, not just keep grumbling about it.

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Brisbane 2 is about milking the SE Queensland commercial teat to make the NRL an even more attractive proposition to broadcasters, who want to flog more subscriptions and advertisements. That is a sensible way to expand.

When you look at it from that perspective you can see why Super League seems less than wholly enthused about Toronto and more keen on Toulouse.

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49 minutes ago, nadera78 said:

All of those things may be true, but they're anecdotal and don't provide a solid reason to base a 2nd NRL club in Brisbane. It needs to be much more substantial than that.

How many people are there who like RL so much that they're prepared to pay to watch it on a weekly basis but at the same time dislike the Broncos so intensely that they won't support them? That's your key number. How you establish it, I'm not sure, but it has to be more than sticking a finger in the air and saying "lots of people don't like the Broncos".

Brisbane is a City that loves Rugby League.

The population is nearly 2.5 million, I think there will be enough fans to watch a team on the weekends where the Broncos are not playing.

Why do you think otherwise? 

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57 minutes ago, jim_57 said:

Do you have any link to the Warriors supposedly going broke every year? I don't seem to recall anything like that.

The billion & multi-million dollar businesses (NRL & Clubs) can't afford domestic flights once a year?

Brisbane2 and the majority of existing clubs are also likely to fold if they don't get decent crowds and sponsorships.

The ARL, Super League and Reds as they were are all long gone. Might be time to move forward, not just keep grumbling about it.

Why do you think a large City like Brisbane would be less successful with a second team than an untried city like Perth?

Some people have long memories, it is not a bad thing. Super League in Australia tried to steal the game and kill off the ARL to set up their own game for cable TV.

If you are ok with that then that is your business, I was not and many other Australians were not.

If Super League had got their way this code would be dead now.

Have the NZ Warriors ever made money?

 

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=12271707

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/league/warriors/118019822/warriors-owners-promise-money-to-cash-strapped-auckland-rugby-league

https://www.ausleisure.com.au/news/auckland-rugby-league-takes-on-new-zealand-warriors-ownership/

 

 

Edited by Allora

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Why are some people worried about whether there are enough fans to support Brisbane2?

Brisbane is a city of over 2 million people with one Nrl team. Sydney has over 5 million people with 9 Nrl teams.

Enough said.

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49 minutes ago, Allora said:

Brisbane is a City that loves Rugby League.

The population is nearly 2.5 million, I think there will be enough fans to watch a team on the weekends where the Broncos are not playing.

Why do you think otherwise? 

I don't necessarily think there aren't, but my point is a simple one - the only reason I ever hear given for a second Brisbane club is that there are lots of people who like RL but dislike the Broncos. And it never goes beyond that. I'd like more than an anecdote.

What I'd really like is for the NRL to do some proper research into it - find out how many people fit the above description, find out what corporate and investor support there is for a second club, what would be the difference in potential support if it was an entirely new club or a promoted QRL club, that kind of thing. That would be the basis for making a decision. It's no easy thing to set up a new club in a city where one already exists and it is far and away the biggest in the league (and the biggest of any sport in that city).

I actually think the NRL is in a great position, there are more cities that could sustain successful expansion clubs than there are places available. That makes it even more important to do it properly.

"Just as we had been Cathars, we were treizistes, men apart."

Jean Roque, Calendrier-revue du Racing-Club Albigeois, 1958-1959

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41 minutes ago, nadera78 said:

I don't necessarily think there aren't, but my point is a simple one - the only reason I ever hear given for a second Brisbane club is that there are lots of people who like RL but dislike the Broncos. And it never goes beyond that. I'd like more than an anecdote.

What I'd really like is for the NRL to do some proper research into it - find out how many people fit the above description, find out what corporate and investor support there is for a second club, what would be the difference in potential support if it was an entirely new club or a promoted QRL club, that kind of thing. That would be the basis for making a decision. It's no easy thing to set up a new club in a city where one already exists and it is far and away the biggest in the league (and the biggest of any sport in that city).

I actually think the NRL is in a great position, there are more cities that could sustain successful expansion clubs than there are places available. That makes it even more important to do it properly.

I do not like the Broncos, never have and never will.

I support Parramatta, I have friends that follow Souths, Easts, Penrith and other Sydney Clubs.

Many Brisbane residents support the Cowboys because they want to support a Qld team but will not cop the Broncos.

If Brisbane had a second team I would likely get behind them but still have some time for Parramatta, many in Brisbane would feel this way with supporting a second Brisbane team and still having time for their heritage Club.

What is your background Nadera78?
I lived in Sydney for 25 years and have lived in Brisbane for 19 years.

I have a reasonable idea of the lay of the land,

 

Edited by Allora
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2 hours ago, nadera78 said:

I don't necessarily think there aren't, but my point is a simple one - the only reason I ever hear given for a second Brisbane club is that there are lots of people who like RL but dislike the Broncos. And it never goes beyond that. I'd like more than an anecdote.

What you don't understand is that there're literally tens of thousands of people in Brisbane that fit that description, there're easily as many of them as there are Broncos fans, if not more.

There are the old BRL and QRL people, the "I only watch SOO" types, thousands and thousands of people who follow a team from out of town because for whatever reason they don't like the Broncos, thousands of expats that follow other teams but want to be able to go to the NRL on a regular basis without supporting the Broncos. That is just a sample, it goes on and on and on. 

No individual club is ever going to be able to capture all of those peoples imaginations at once, in fact it's probably impossible to convert them all into NRL fans, but a club that is well set up could easily average 20-25ish thousand from the get go, and they could grow much, much, bigger than that if they are successful and play their cards right.

As for something more than an anecdote, well in 1995 the South Queensland Crushers had an average home crowd of 21,029.  

Let's put that into perspective, in 1995 there were about 800k less people in Brisbane, it was also during the SL war, and the Broncos were not only at the height of their powers, but they were actively trying to kill the Crushers.

If the Crushers could achieve that under those circumstances in 95, then the sky is the limit for a well run club today.

Edited by The Great Dane
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5 hours ago, Allora said:

Really?

The NZ Warriors are on the verge of going broke every other year.

Who is paying for the four hour flights to Perth for 30 people for their home games?

Perth are likely to fold within 3 years if they do not get decent crowds and sponsorships.

Don't forget the ARL brought in the Western Reds only to see them struggle to pay their way and jump to “Super League” the first chance they got.

 

You don't know anything about RL in Perth, the Pirates bid, or the Western Reds history do you.

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5 hours ago, Allora said:

Really?

The NZ Warriors are on the verge of going broke every other year.

Who is paying for the four hour flights to Perth for 30 people for their home games?

Perth are likely to fold within 3 years if they do not get decent crowds and sponsorships.

Don't forget the ARL brought in the Western Reds only to see them struggle to pay their way and jump to “Super League” the first chance they got.

 

Western Reds failed because they were responsible for return flights for their opponents and just two seasons deep, the club not only had to accomodate the transfer costs of opponents, but also a hugely inflated salary bill due to the SL war.

They didn’t stand a chance.

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6 hours ago, Allora said:

You do realise that many Brisbane residents can not stand the Broncos?

Do you realise that the Fans of a new Club will not be coming from the Broncos fan base?

You must realise that the second largest Rugby League city in Australia has every second weekend with no local team playing?

I have lived in Brisbane for nearly 20 years and have only gone to a Broncos game a few times when my team was playing the Broncos.

I could not care if the Broncos went broke and I am not alone in that regard.

 

Think about it.

Thought about all that already. 

Just like the AFL, get the footprint, then double down.

Brisbane 2 is not the priority.

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It is my opinion that the biggest losers of a 2nd club coming to Brisbane will be the Brisbane AFL club, as they will have to compete with NRL club every week in a Rugby League mad city, and the disaffected Rugby League fans from the Super League war and some no doubt have been supporting the Brisbane AFL club, but i think that will alter.

If the 2nd Brisbane NRL club gets the go ahead i expect the AFL to throw many more millions at the Brisbane club just to keep them treading water, and the knock on affect will be is that the GC AFL club will suffer and that will help the Gold Coast Titans

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16 minutes ago, The Future is League said:

It is my opinion that the biggest losers of a 2nd club coming to Brisbane will be the Brisbane AFL club, as they will have to compete with NRL club every week in a Rugby League mad city, and the disaffected Rugby League fans from the Super League war and some no doubt have been supporting the Brisbane AFL club, but i think that will alter.

If the 2nd Brisbane NRL club gets the go ahead i expect the AFL to throw many more millions at the Brisbane club just to keep them treading water, and the knock on affect will be is that the GC AFL club will suffer and that will help the Gold Coast Titans

We can hope!

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5 hours ago, Allora said:

I do not like the Broncos, never have and never will.

I support Parramatta, I have friends that follow Souths, Easts, Penrith and other Sydney Clubs.

Many Brisbane residents support the Cowboys because they want to support a Qld team but will not cop the Broncos.

If Brisbane had a second team I would likely get behind them but still have some time for Parramatta, many in Brisbane would feel this way with supporting a second Brisbane team and still having time for their heritage Club.

What is your background Nadera78?
I lived in Sydney for 25 years and have lived in Brisbane for 19 years.

I have a reasonable idea of the lay of the land,

 

Another anecdote.

"Just as we had been Cathars, we were treizistes, men apart."

Jean Roque, Calendrier-revue du Racing-Club Albigeois, 1958-1959

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