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McDermott oblivious to the risk posed by head injuries?


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2 minutes ago, Lowdesert said:

As has been said, we don’t know how this conversation has come about but it’s true that not all heavy hits cause concussion that’s instantly recognisable.  A heavy hit, like the one Chrispy mentions might be classed or even identified by different Doctors tests.

What I think he’s getting at is that guessing is not good enough.  If there isn’t enough evidence, play on.  I think at the level, that would be a fair call.

Are doctors simply guessing? I was under the impression that they were the experts on this kind of thing?

I genuinely don't know much about it, but my understanding was that it was experts making these calls...

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1 minute ago, Dave T said:

Are doctors simply guessing? I was under the impression that they were the experts on this kind of thing?

I genuinely don't know much about it, but my understanding was that it was experts making these calls...

I would imagine a doctor making a 50/50 call would err on the side of caution and the coach would follow that.  Desperation and an atmosphere that down to 12 men brings might be taken out of his hands.  I think that’s more like reality.

Players are still taking jabs to play.  Guaranteed to come back in later life with, as a minimum, scar tissue to deal with.  IMO this player welfare has a long way to go please the masses, but many players and many fans want to see gladiators battling.

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1 minute ago, Lowdesert said:

I would imagine a doctor making a 50/50 call would err on the side of caution and the coach would follow that.  Desperation and an atmosphere that down to 12 men brings might be taken out of his hands.  I think that’s more like reality.

Players are still taking jabs to play.  Guaranteed to come back in later life with, as a minimum, scar tissue to deal with.  IMO this player welfare has a long way to go please the masses, but many players and many fans want to see gladiators battling.

How thorough are the HIA's that occur once the player is off the pitch?

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I got a concussion playing Union in late December - was clotheslined and hit back of head hard on ground

Was removed from play immediately (pretty obvious as i had to crawl to edge of pitch), was given a SCAT test at end of game, was reassessed following Tuesday. They went on the graduated return to play protocol, after xmas I had to do another SCAT test on a Tuesday before being allowed to do non contact training, was questioned and tested again at end of training, repeated on Thu but with contact. After passing all those was cleared to play on the Saturday but tested pre and post game.

I had no cognitive impairment but was falling to the right when i shut my eyes and less co-ordinated on that side initially

 

All in I did 8 Scat test I think and they were all compared back to the baseline one done during pre season

AI assume most league clubs use the same SCAT for HIA, given 5 words repeat them back, then given a sequence of number repeat back in reverse, they keep lengthening the string until you get it wrong, stand feet toe to heal dominant foot in front, hands outstretched to side shut eyes and measure how long balanced, open eyes touch nose/physio's finger repeatedly as they move their finger around and you stare at their face (peripheral vision test) then you get asked for the 5 words given at the beginning again

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6 minutes ago, Dave T said:

How thorough are the HIA's that occur once the player is off the pitch?

As thorough as the individuals want them to be.  I’m a bit out of it now but symptoms, cognitive and balance tests were the recommendations and clear enough and as thorough as they can at the time.  

That was as at around 5 years ago.  I don’t think anyone would ever condone a person from the medical profession acting inappropriately.  

Key to this( and I could be wrong so don’t shoot me) was that the player might fall into Cat 1 or 2 - with the former being concussed and the latter possibly concussed.  If neither, play on.  If Cat 2 and ‘has he or hasn’t he’ been concussed, is asked then this is where the guess comes in based on experience.  A young doctor/physio could quite easily make a mistake.

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5 minutes ago, SSoutherner said:

I got a concussion playing Union in late December - was clotheslined and hit back of head hard on ground

Was removed from play immediately (pretty obvious as i had to crawl to edge of pitch), was given a SCAT test at end of game, was reassessed following Tuesday. They went on the graduated return to play protocol, after xmas I had to do another SCAT test on a Tuesday before being allowed to do non contact training, was questioned and tested again at end of training, repeated on Thu but with contact. After passing all those was cleared to play on the Saturday but tested pre and post game.

I had no cognitive impairment but was falling to the right when i shut my eyes and less co-ordinated on that side initially

 

All in I did 8 Scat test I think and they were all compared back to the baseline one done during pre season

AI assume most league clubs use the same SCAT for HIA, given 5 words repeat them back, then given a sequence of number repeat back in reverse, they keep lengthening the string until you get it wrong, stand feet toe to heal dominant foot in front, hands outstretched to side shut eyes and measure how long balanced, open eyes touch nose/physio's finger repeatedly as they move their finger around and you stare at their face (peripheral vision test) then you get asked for the 5 words given at the beginning again

You would have dropped into Cat 2.  Removed from play.  Stevie Ward would have been the same Category (if his facial injury had been bad enough).

Still would’ve been a period of time for reassessment, so thinking about it, this is another area where 50/50 cases go the wrong way.  

Most are quite clear.

Are you still walking around in circles?  If so, could’ve been Cat 1 ?

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51 minutes ago, Dave T said:

How thorough are the HIA's that occur once the player is off the pitch?

The HIA test is based on current best practice and is not necessarily a straightforward pass or fail - the medical examiner should also know the player fairly well in order to spot any behavioural changes that may point to (possible) brain injury.

Allowed return after a head injury is on an individual basis based on regular assessment. If Wilkin is/was being prevented from playing then he's clearly failing the assessment to show he's recovered. ...

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Think we have a few worries about player welfare. Comments which at best display a dangerous level of ignorance from McDermott and St Helens considering playing a player who just last week was ruled over for several months and requiring surgery.

Is player welfare just a buzz phrase from our game, when our actions suggest it is secondary to what is in the interests of the individual club?

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17 hours ago, Lowdesert said:

You would have dropped into Cat 2.  Removed from play.  Stevie Ward would have been the same Category (if his facial injury had been bad enough).

Still would’ve been a period of time for reassessment, so thinking about it, this is another area where 50/50 cases go the wrong way.  

Most are quite clear.

Are you still walking around in circles?  If so, could’ve been Cat 1 ?

No i was def Cat1, after my head it ground i could not sit up straight let alone stand, i literally crawled to the sideline and 25 mins later when game was over and i was doing the SCAT as soon as i closed my eyes for the balance test i fell left, i also could not hit his finger with mine when it was to my left. As i had hit the right rear of my head on ground that fitted (wrote right in previous post but was def left as i remember hitting changing room wall with left hand)

I have had some long discussions on this as my daughter is planning on becoming a physio (was going for Dr but has had a fit of reality), the physio at her club who she has spoken to a lot (for careers/interview guidance) did her entire post graduate thesis on "the effects of concussion on physical co-ordination and increase in physical injuries in the short to medium term after a concussion event". It appears from her research that if you return to play too soon (or do not leave the field) then ignoring the head injury side there is a massively increased chance of other injuries as the body is not as co-ordinated and muscle control is reduced, even things like ACL injuries show an increase in players with a recent concussion event

 

Just checked and actual title (awaiting publication) is "Sports related concussion increases the chance of musculoskeletal injury amongst the professional athletic population: a systematic review and meta-analysis"

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17 hours ago, Les Tonks Sidestep said:

The HIA test is based on current best practice and is not necessarily a straightforward pass or fail - the medical examiner should also know the player fairly well in order to spot any behavioural changes that may point to (possible) brain injury.

Allowed return after a head injury is on an individual basis based on regular assessment. If Wilkin is/was being prevented from playing then he's clearly failing the assessment to show he's recovered. ...

This is why all players should undergo a baseline SCAT during pre season so the physio/Dr has something to measure against after a potential (or actual) concusion

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